[Will Smith]

http://punchbowlgolf.com/2009/08/old-mac-11-the-road-hole/

[John Kirk]

Fantastic vignette, Will.  Thanks to Tom Doak for sharing.

[Will Smith]

I did not produce, only embedded it.

[Ben Sims]

Interestingly enough.  I found it very effective--if the pin is left of center--to leave my second shot in the expanse of grass to the right , kinda right front of the green.  This gives a much easier pitch than being short or long.  The second shot might be one of the toughest on the resort, and for that reason, I played for the up and down.  Great hole.

[K. Krahenbuhl]

How severe is the slope behind the green?  From the video it doesn't look to be much of a penalty (vs being short) to just play your second long and putt back.

[Ben Sims]

Kyle,

Not that I'm an expert on the hole, but spent about 20 minutes exploring the green as we were the only guys on the course that day.

The green slopes away from you when you're back there.  It's severe enough that I threw a couple balls down and tried three different shots.  The flop went in the bunker.  The chip rolled over as well.  The putt barely stayed on.  I found the slope exacting enough that it took a good to great shot to get it close to the pin--much less stay on the green--from back there. 

It's been talked about--if that bank is truly penal enough compared to the original--on the site.  1) It's a resort course, no need to be as penal as the road is at TOC.  2) The average golfer that will be playing this course doesn't make that shot routinely.  I found it unique and fun, but for those that continually fly the green and putt or chip back up, they'll find it maddening.

[Adam Clayman]

Thanx for sharing.

Tom says it's not as much downhill as the real McCoy, or, is it not downhill at OM?

[Tom_Doak]

Adam:

I would guess the second shot at St. Andrews is 10-15 feet downhill; at Old Macdonald 5-10 feet downhill.  But at Old Mac the land bottoms out quite a bit sooner, especially to the right and short of the green ... it's not a lot, but enough that you wind up with the green a bit above eye level if you leak your second shot over there.

[Damon Groves]

How severe is the slope behind the green?  From the video it doesn't look to be much of a penalty (vs being short) to just play your second long and putt back.

My caddie and I came to the your conclusion that the way to go if the pin is in the left side of the green is to go long and pitch/putt back. If the ball is on the right side of the green there is no need. Regardless, the second shot is tough and simply a great hole.

[Sean Eidson]

I really enjoyed the comments about how playing it downhill affects the risk of going long.  When I played OM, my first thought about this hole was that the bunker didn't seem deep enough or steep enough, but I appreciate the fact that it's a resort course.

We have what seems like a pretty decent copy of the Road Hole at The Tribute here in Dallas.  I haven't been to St. Andrews, but our hole includes the key elements of having a blind drive over a building and negotiating around that bunker.  Unlike Old Mac, we also have OB right off the tee and cart path/wall behind the green.  It's looks less penal than St. Andrews because the area behind the green is larger, runoff less severe, and has bermuda rough.  But as a key difference, our hole plays slightly UP hill, which takes some of the risk of going long out of play.

It's incredible how the different turf influences the way you play, though.  Our road hole is bermuda fairway/rough and bent green, OM is obviously all fescue.  We couldn't even imagine the putt from 10 feet off the green, let alone 40+.

[Sean Eidson]

On a separate tangent, I thought the comment about the fact that there were lots of copies of the Road Hole was curious.  I wonder how others who have played copies think about whether they're comparing copies and whether that's a good thing.

As I left that hole during my trip around OM, I thought that it was a little disappointing because I've played a different copy.  I thought it was superior, primarily due to the turf differences. However, I would have enjoyed a representation of a hole that wasn't quite so ubiquitous or something that was original Tom Doak. For example I loved staring down into the Sahara bunker - it looked like the scene from Return of the Jedi - and I don't think I'll ever see that again unless I see the orginal.

Was the Road Hole a mandatory?  Is my perspective unique among others who have played different copies? 

[Sebonac]

Tom,
Why no bunker behind this green to mimic the road as MacDonald did at NGLA.  It seems to punish shots a bit more.  With just grass behind the green...why not always be agressive...especially with you long approaches>

[Tom_Doak]

Sean:

We've been keenly aware from the beginning of that project that some would perceive the holes as "copies" and tried to distance ourselves from that by taking many of the holes and building them our own way.  On our Road hole there were no natural features on that stretch of ground which suggested a different twist ... and I was aware how few people had previously been able to build the green for a running shot and get the front of the green much at all like the original ... so the Road hole is probably closer to the original than any of the Old Macdonald holes.  (The Eden is the other hole that's reasonably close.)  They are such great holes that I don't mind people thinking ours are pretty similar.

Sebonac [nice name; are you a Native American?]:

We thought that the length of the hole playing into the summer wind, plus the deep bunker left, were hazard enough for most players; and remember we are trying to accommodate 40,000 rounds per year.   We can always dig a bunker later if we want, but we don't believe many golfers will walk away thinking the course is too easy.

[Jed Rammell]

Tom - -

Is the difficulty of this green solely dependent on the pin position? The day I played the hole, the pin was middle right . . . seemed like no big challenge. What is the most difficult pin on this green?

[David_Elvins]

It's been talked about--if that bank is truly penal enough compared to the original--on the site.  1) It's a resort course, no need to be as penal as the road is at TOC. 

What is St Andrews if it isn't a resort course?

[Tom_Doak]

St. Andrews is a muni.

And Nature did not have a client.

[Ben Sims]

It's been talked about--if that bank is truly penal enough compared to the original--on the site.  1) It's a resort course, no need to be as penal as the road is at TOC. 

What is St Andrews if it isn't a resort course?

David,

Are you saying that Tom and Jim should've routed a road right through the middle of the plateau that 14 of the holes sit on so the 11th could have a penal hazard to faithfully replicate the 17th at TOC?  Or perhaps you want your road hole to have a bunker to faithfully replicate Mac's version at NGLA.

I'll be blunt.  If patrons of Bandon Dunes Golf Resort are coming to the southwestern coast of Oregon to play The Old Course a la Tom Doak and Jim Urbina, they're in it for the wrong reasons.  If they think that by playing Old Mac, that they'll scratch some type of NGLA itch, I don't really think that's the point of the golf course either.

I think the hole speaks for itself without a need to be compared to NGLA or TOC.  I think the bank is penal enough as is, and where it fits into the round will be appropriate (Biarritz, Cape, Bottle, Road, Redan). 

If I've been curt, I appologize.  I just hope that the legacy of that course doesn't go down like this.  First, The Old Course.  Second, NGLA. Third, Old Macdonald. 

[Damon Groves]

The holes definitely stand on their own and have their own feel as does the course as a whole.

And Tom, no worry about the course playing too easy. I think it could be the toughest of the four.

I said earlier in another thread but have to say it again. I love Old Mac and can't wait the play the full 18.

[Rob Rigg]

Ben,

I think the hole is just fine as it is - but if they wanted - Tom and Jim could add a maintenance path, as discussed previously, that links up with another that lies to the back/left of the green and thus provide an obstacle on the backside that does not look out of place or contrived. I actually prefer the short grass collection area versus a bunker at the back. The green is certainly a lot to handle as it is, so further difficulty is probably not needed for most of the guests who will be playing the course (especially the first time round).

This is a great video - thanks for posting Will (and Tom)

[Will Smith]

It's been talked about--if that bank is truly penal enough compared to the original--on the site.  1) It's a resort course, no need to be as penal as the road is at TOC. 

What is St Andrews if it isn't a resort course?

David,

Are you saying that Tom and Jim should've routed a road right through the middle of the plateau that 14 of the holes sit on so the 11th could have a penal hazard to faithfully replicate the 17th at TOC?  Or perhaps you want your road hole to have a bunker to faithfully replicate Mac's version at NGLA.

I'll be blunt.  If patrons of Bandon Dunes Golf Resort are coming to the southwestern coast of Oregon to play The Old Course a la Tom Doak and Jim Urbina, they're in it for the wrong reasons.  If they think that by playing Old Mac, that they'll scratch some type of NGLA itch, I don't really think that's the point of the golf course either.

I think the hole speaks for itself without a need to be compared to NGLA or TOC.  I think the bank is penal enough as is, and where it fits into the round will be appropriate (Biarritz, Cape, Bottle, Road, Redan). 

If I've been curt, I appologize.  I just hope that the legacy of that course doesn't go down like this.  First, The Old Course.  Second, NGLA. Third, Old Macdonald. 

Ben- I don't think anyone involved with the project will be disappointed if that is indeed is the legacy of the course. Arguably the most influential designs in Scotland and the U.S. 

[Tom_Doak]

If I've been curt, I appologize.  I just hope that the legacy of that course doesn't go down like this.  First, The Old Course.  Second, NGLA. Third, Old Macdonald. 

Actually, Will, I would be very disappointed if that were the legacy of the course.  Not because I think we ought to do better than The Old Course or National -- but because it would be a shame if anybody thought all of the very best courses in the world had to follow these concepts. 

I agreed to do this project because I agreed with Mr. Keiser that most of the customers in Bandon never get to see National or other Macdonald courses, so it would be nice for them to get a chance here; and the concept fit our site pretty well.  But there are other creative approaches to design, and I believe that some of them ought to be admired above Old Macdonald or even National.

[Rob Rigg]

Tom,

I think the Biarritz is a perfect example of taking the "spirit" of a template and tweaking it in an exciting way that totally fits the site.

The "Ocean" hole is also a very cool "original" that will stand out in every golfer's mind after the round.

Based on the preview round, I firmly believe that OM will stand on its own as a fantastic course that is a pleasure to play.

Many guests will probably have no idea who CBM was, or where NGLA is located, never mind its template holes. Thus, at the end of the day, the course will stand on its own, although it is fun for those "in the know" to compare what you have done with the original templates/holes.

[Sean Eidson]

Rob,

I agree that not everyone will be as knowledgable about the templates applied to the other holes.  However, I think the stakes are raised when designing an interpretation of one of the most famous holes in golf.  As a sample of one, I'd say that before I started paying attention at all to golf course design, I could recognize about 5 holes:

ANGC 12
Sawgrass 17
Pebble 18
TOC 17
And maybe a few others like Harbour Town 18 because they have a striking landmark

I completely agree with you about the Biarritz - awesome, exciting interpretation of a concept that fits the scale of the site.  Sahara - awesome exposure to something I may never see in person.  Road hole - played a copy about 15 times and wish I had a chance to enjoy something else from deeper in the Renaissance arsenal.

The bar for me is really high, though.  This half round was the most fun I've ever had on a golf course.  Any lull in excitement has to be viewed through those rose colored glasses.

[Damon Groves]

Tom  -

Thanks for info that part of the reason to build Old Mac was for us that will never get to play NGLA. As a West Coast public golfer I appreciate it.

For those who have not played the preview holes at Old Mac you will not be dissappointed. Some very cool stuff on Old Mac at a very special place...Bandon.

[Jim Colton]

If anybody is looking for all of the Old Mac videos in one place:

Old Mac #2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p1s_DrVCaTc
Old Mac #7: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=quPrW7fxVFw
Old Mac #11: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QZDoW-WY5Gg
Ground Game w/ Grant (Short,Hogsback,Long): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hwIGPuRxb1E

Doak, Urbina, Keiser on 1st Hole:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uQ8oOoFBCnw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r22993dvmq0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mRPBLht9MkU

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