[Mike Hendren]

Too many dog-leg right par fours and dogleg left par fives?

Bogey

[Chip Gaskins]

Bogey-

Nit picking it is...

Also the best walk in the park on the planet.

Chip

[Bill_McBride]

Too many dog-leg right par fours and dogleg left par fives?

Bogey

Wow, never thought of that, cancel my tee time forthwith!  

Do you think of #4 or #13 as dogleg rights?

#1, #4, #11, #13, straight.  #18, what does it matter?

#2 is a dogleg left on paper, but doesn't play like a dogleg once the tee ball is in play.  A lot of "cape" tee shot holes are like that.  #5, is it a dogleg at all?  #10 straight.  I'll agree on #6, love that tee shot.

[Tom_Doak]

Bogey:

On the par-4 thread I noticed that 12-13-14-15 at Shinnecock are four doglegs to the right all in a row.  And then 1, 4, 6, 8, 10 also.

Then again nearly all of Ballybunion goes right to left, and nobody cares.

[Carl Nichols]

. . . . but lots of people seem to care that Portmarnock starts with too many right-to-left holes.

[Mike Hendren]

. . . . but lots of people seem to care that Portmarnock starts with too many right-to-left holes.

...and Nicklaus is routinely criticized for too many left to right holes.

Looking at the beautiful print in my office prepared by Forrest Richardson (available at www.golframes.com) the following pars fours bend right:  1, 8, 11, 12, 13, 14, 17, 18 (not to mention 16 for Tim Bert and David Moriarty).  That's every two-shotter but the 4th and 9th.

Tom,  I don't care either, but can help bringing it up given the course's loft rating. 

Bogey

[Tom_Doak]

Carl:

Who cares about the doglegs at Portmarnock?

I am convinced these types of nit-picks are generally deployed only when somebody wants to keep a course one peg below his own favorites and can't come up with a better reason.  The same applies to "not having the par-3's all play in different compass directions".

No one should be trying to build an "ideal" golf course unless the land is boring.  If it's good, then the only priority should be to get as much out of the land as you can, and if that means more dogleg rights, so be it.

[John Mayhugh]

Dog-leg right doesn't necessarily mean tee shots are one dimensional.   It's not like the desired tee shot and approach to the greens will be consistent hole to hole.  The ratio of doglegs really only matters on a bow & arrow type course.

[Bill_McBride]

Dog-leg right doesn't necessarily mean tee shots are one dimensional.   It's not like the desired tee shot and approach to the greens will be consistent hole to hole.  The ratio of doglegs really only matters on a bow & arrow type course.

Plus,. as I said above, some of those doglegs really don't play so much like doglegs. 

Does that make sense?

[John Mayhugh]

Dog-leg right doesn't necessarily mean tee shots are one dimensional.   It's not like the desired tee shot and approach to the greens will be consistent hole to hole.  The ratio of doglegs really only matters on a bow & arrow type course.

Plus,. as I said above, some of those doglegs really don't play so much like doglegs. 

Does that make sense?

Considering it agrees with me, makes perfect sense.

[Mike Hendren]

I agree that Bill's response makes the most sense and was a defense I was fishing for.  Nos. 1,11,13 and 14 are effectively straight-away holes.

Bogey

[Bill_McBride]

I agree that Bill's response makes the most sense and was a defense I was fishing for.  Nos. 1,11,13 and 14 are effectively straight-away holes.

Bogey

But definitely no dogleg left holes!

[Mike_DeVries]

Carl:

Who cares about the doglegs at Portmarnock?

I am convinced these types of nit-picks are generally deployed only when somebody wants to keep a course one peg below his own favorites and can't come up with a better reason.  The same applies to "not having the par-3's all play in different compass directions".

No one should be trying to build an "ideal" golf course unless the land is boring.  If it's good, then the only priority should be to get as much out of the land as you can, and if that means more dogleg rights, so be it.

Tom,

Exactly!

[Tim Bert]

Mike

16 is by far the mosr exhilirating of the dogleg par 4s!

[Carl Nichols]

Carl:

Who cares about the doglegs at Portmarnock?

I am convinced these types of nit-picks are generally deployed only when somebody wants to keep a course one peg below his own favorites and can't come up with a better reason.  The same applies to "not having the par-3's all play in different compass directions".

No one should be trying to build an "ideal" golf course unless the land is boring.  If it's good, then the only priority should be to get as much out of the land as you can, and if that means more dogleg rights, so be it.

Tom,

Exactly!

Tom:
Not to pick on him, but my recollection is that this (i.e., that the course started with too many similarly shaped holes) was one of Sean Arble's knocks (albeit not his #1 knock) on Portmarnock after his recent trip to Ireland.  I also read something along these lines in some book, though I can't place it.  [Note that I didn't say that *I* cared about this.]

[Sean_A]

Carl:

Who cares about the doglegs at Portmarnock?

I am convinced these types of nit-picks are generally deployed only when somebody wants to keep a course one peg below his own favorites and can't come up with a better reason.  The same applies to "not having the par-3's all play in different compass directions".

No one should be trying to build an "ideal" golf course unless the land is boring.  If it's good, then the only priority should be to get as much out of the land as you can, and if that means more dogleg rights, so be it.

I don't know Tom.  If variety is a good thing in gca, then I would think not having an over-abundance of one type of hole or another is a good thing.  You have stated that if the land is boring then its alright to go for the ideal course so there must be some virtue in variety.  That said, one would have to be anal if one of the criticisms of CPC is a preponderance of leggers one way or the other.  I would have thought there are enough great things going on that the course over-comes this.  However, on a course which doesn't really rise above its less than ideal elements is it a legit criticism?  I think so. 

Ciao

 

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