News:

This discussion group is best enjoyed using Google Chrome, Firefox or Safari.


Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rock Creek
« Reply #50 on: August 14, 2009, 10:34:46 AM »
I was tooling around with Google Earth this morning and found the land where RCCC is located...(or at least I'm pretty sure I have! ;D)

I took the screen shots at an angle to hopefully show the property and its heaving nature a little better.  Rock Creek can be seen flowing down the middle from top to bottom in the 1st screen capture, visa versa in the 2nd.  Where would you put the course??   :D




Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Rock Creek
« Reply #51 on: August 14, 2009, 10:40:41 AM »
Kalen:

Great work in framing the whole golf course in your picture.  However, without some sense of scale and without a better perspective on the topography of the meadowy parts, I doubt anyone could figure out much of anything from the aerial photos.  I know I couldn't; I needed a good topo map for 2500 acres.

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rock Creek
« Reply #52 on: August 14, 2009, 10:45:45 AM »
Kalen:

Great work in framing the whole golf course in your picture.  However, without some sense of scale and without a better perspective on the topography of the meadowy parts, I doubt anyone could figure out much of anything from the aerial photos.  I know I couldn't; I needed a good topo map for 2500 acres.

Thats good then I suppose...we'll officially turn the mystery that is RCCC into an enigma!!   ;D

I wish we had more time to explore the property, I would have loved to head up in the mountains and see the lake.

Jim Franklin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rock Creek
« Reply #53 on: August 14, 2009, 10:46:45 AM »

Rock Creek is blessed with wonderful rolling terrain and there's a good mixture where power, accuracy and finesse are all brought together in one package.

I personally believe the par-4 11th is one my favorite all-time Doak holes.

I couldn't agree more with both of these comments.  It's amazing how little we talk about #11.  That's a spectacular golf hole. 

7 and 11 were my two favorite holes. I loved the strategy of both. The slope of the fairway on 11 is amazing. Both times my drives ended at the bottom of the hill with a blind shot to the green. Flew it the first time and hit it to 5 feet the next. Very cool stuff.
Mr Hurricane

Jim Franklin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rock Creek
« Reply #54 on: August 14, 2009, 10:47:30 AM »
Kalen:

Great work in framing the whole golf course in your picture.  However, without some sense of scale and without a better perspective on the topography of the meadowy parts, I doubt anyone could figure out much of anything from the aerial photos.  I know I couldn't; I needed a good topo map for 2500 acres.

Thats good then I suppose...we'll officially turn the mystery that is RCCC into an enigma!!   ;D

I wish we had more time to explore the property, I would have loved to head up in the mountains and see the lake.

Trust me, you explored enough of the property  ;).
Mr Hurricane

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rock Creek
« Reply #55 on: August 14, 2009, 10:47:46 AM »
While playing, Andy, Jim, and I were wondering if you had any restrictions on how close you could build next to the creek?

P.S. Jim, thats true we spent plenty of time searching for balls in the junk, but as I recall a few of those were yours too, namely on 9 and 10.   ;)
« Last Edit: August 14, 2009, 10:49:30 AM by Kalen Braley »

Jim Franklin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rock Creek
« Reply #56 on: August 14, 2009, 10:53:54 AM »
While playing, Andy, Jim, and I were wondering if you had any restrictions on how close you could build next to the creek?

P.S. Jim, thats true we spent plenty of time searching for balls in the junk, but as I recall a few of those were yours too, namely on 9 and 10.   ;)

At least we found mine and I made par  ;).
Mr Hurricane

Tom Huckaby

Re: Rock Creek
« Reply #57 on: August 14, 2009, 11:23:14 AM »
I wish we had more time to explore the property, I would have loved to head up in the mountains and see the lake.

We did that on ATVs.  That was awesome!  There's a great lake up there and the ride was a blast.  The trout fishing was also a blast.  And by the way, the cabins are fantastic, too.

Quite seriously... now I know man does not live by golf alone... but if the course is so fantastic, why would one want to do all those things.. especially if time is limited....

Seriously, my friend... now I know that makes the sale for you in terms of where you point the plane.. but for me, when I get out of town, it is all golf all day, all drinking all night.  Other activities would only cloud my mind.  That is IF the courses are great enough to want to play again and again...

I thought Rock Creek would be such a course.  Is it not?

Explain thyself.  And I know this will be good.....

 ;D

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rock Creek
« Reply #58 on: August 14, 2009, 11:23:35 AM »
I wish we had more time to explore the property, I would have loved to head up in the mountains and see the lake.

We did that on ATVs.  That was awesome!  There's a great lake up there and the ride was a blast.  The trout fishing was also a blast.  And by the way, the cabins are fantastic, too.

Thanks for rubbing it in Shiv.    ;D

I would have loved to drive my FJ up there if the trails weren't too narrow...not that it would stop me though...I've driven over a couple small trees in that thing before.

Tom Huckaby

Re: Rock Creek
« Reply #59 on: August 14, 2009, 11:42:57 AM »
Aha.. so you were just going along with your benefactors.. and it was fun in so doing.  Fair enough.

Just riddle me this.. if you go with me... do we fish or ride ATVs?


Tom Huckaby

Re: Rock Creek
« Reply #60 on: August 14, 2009, 11:46:47 AM »
right after the night putting...you know, just putting - at night.

Excellent.  You are absolved.

 ;D

Tom Huckaby

Re: Rock Creek
« Reply #61 on: August 14, 2009, 11:50:55 AM »
Fishing at dawn before the course opens would be OK, too.  The stream is about 20 feet from the pro shop.

The key words being "before the course opens."

If the course is open I am not fishing... unless I am there for more than 4-5 days.... and even then I'd likely be fishing regretfully.....


Matt_Ward

Re: Rock Creek
« Reply #62 on: August 14, 2009, 12:04:50 PM »
Kalen:

Thanks for the correction -- yes -- I meant to say the 16th. It just seems to me that a closing par-5 was carried out to fill the bill for yardage purposes. It's a decent hole but Doak has done far better par-5 holes from the ones I have played.

Jim:

Happy to detail my comments on Lakota and Black Rock.

Jim, c'mon let's be real OK -- Black Rock is NOT the 27th best course in the nation. The Digest raters who voted for it have been smoking some powerful weed don't you think ?

Lakota Canyon more than matches -- likely exceeds the par-5's at Black Rock. On the par-3 front you have likely a wash between the two places. On the par-4 front it's a close call -- for the sake of argument I give the edge to Black Rock.

Jim, I like Black Rock and I have had the good fortune in playing plenty of Engh layouts and I always like the edgy nature of what he provides. He does tempt players to try a range of fun shots when playing. I'd certainly return to Black Rock if the opportunity presents itself. Is the course a top 50 layout among the ones I have played in the States. No. Would I recommend it to those who have a fairly elastic sense of golf course design. In a heartbeat.


Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Rock Creek
« Reply #63 on: August 14, 2009, 12:13:40 PM »
Matt:

No way the 18th hole is "for yardage purposes".  We had to get back to the clubhouse after 16 and 17, which were both great holes we couldn't ignore.  The 18th was the best way back I could figure out.  It's not as exciting as I had hoped ... we had considered having the landing area for the tee shot left of the creek, but there were some wet areas over there that were off limits.  But it doesn't suck to play back toward the mountains alongside the creek, and I thought it was a better par five than a par-4.

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rock Creek
« Reply #64 on: August 14, 2009, 12:16:00 PM »
Tom,

Perhaps you missed my earlier post, but speaking of 18, what were the restrictions you had with the creek?  It really comes into play on 8 and 17 but other than that, seems to be a fair ways off.

Thanks,

Matt_Ward

Re: Rock Creek
« Reply #65 on: August 14, 2009, 12:18:36 PM »
Tom:

Glad to hear you could not ignore the 16th and 17th holes.

Your own words hit the nail on the head / re: 18th -- it's "not as exciting ..."

Rock Creek has a range of fun and thrilling holes -- in my mind, the 18th lays flat when held against the standard you face prior to that point. Simple as that for me.

Tim Pitner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rock Creek
« Reply #66 on: August 14, 2009, 12:26:56 PM »
Rock Creek has a range of fun and thrilling holes -- in my mind, the 18th lays flat when held against the standard you face prior to that point. Simple as that for me.

What more needs to be said then--end of thread. 

(P.S. I haven't played Rock Creek and know very little about it other that what's been discussed here). 

Thomas Patterson

Re: Rock Creek
« Reply #67 on: August 14, 2009, 12:32:00 PM »
From what I have heard in this thread, I would feel very privileged and fortunate to play such an amazing course. 

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Rock Creek
« Reply #68 on: August 14, 2009, 01:59:34 PM »
Kalen:

The only real restriction on the creek was a practical matter of topography ... for most of its length through the property, the banks are either so steep that it would be hard to use effectively, or so shallow that a golf hole alongside it might get flooded out.

The environmental restrictions in Montana are designed around what's practical for loggers.  There are no real setbacks at all; you can work right up to the top of the bank, which is how the clubhouse patio got to be such a cool spot.

In laying out the golf course, we tried to take advantage of that, particularly at the 17th where the green is as close to the water as anything I've built.  But upstream from there, there were not many places we could find where it wasn't too steep to build a golf hole.  We did find a good crossing point at #8, and ironically that's how the seventh hole turned out to be so cool -- because we had to get to #8 tee, and we didn't want to get there with a par-3, so necessity was the mother of invention in finding a par-4 across that rugged part of the property.  [Eric says #7 is the one hole he never would have found in a million years.]

The tenth green overlooks the stream, and then the eighteenth comes back across it at the end, though not as dramatically as I had originally planned (see above).

The only other place I looked at a good hole crossing the stream was just north of the lodge and cabins ... we could have built a great par-3 playing uphill into the flow of the creek there.  But, that just didn't fit into the routing that well; we would have wound up with weaker finishing holes on the other side of the creek, so we nixed it.

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rock Creek
« Reply #69 on: August 14, 2009, 02:48:28 PM »
Tom:

Glad to hear you could not ignore the 16th and 17th holes.

Your own words hit the nail on the head / re: 18th -- it's "not as exciting ..."

Rock Creek has a range of fun and thrilling holes -- in my mind, the 18th lays flat when held against the standard you face prior to that point. Simple as that for me.

Matt is certainly entitled to his opinion and I appreciate his willingness to express it.  But, generally, this kind of perspective always fascinates me and, I think, highlights a few real shortcomings in the way many look at golf courses.   Golf courses are supposed to be courses, not collections of individual holes with no relationship between one and the next.   Loving the 16th and 17th while knocking the 18th makes little sense to me because without the 18th taking us back up to the clubhouse, the 16th and 17th couldn't exist, or else the course would dead end into a rock wall (without a waterfall.)  One can reasonably ask whether the 18th could have been done differently, or whether the entire three hole loop should be discarded, but to just focus on the individual holes without figuring how and why the fit together misses the point of having a course.

Likewise, I don't think it necessarily makes sense to expect every hole on a course to offer the same level or type of excitement and thrills.  The reason 16 through 18 have a slightly different feel is that they aren't built through the moraine.  Sort of like leaving the dunes on a links course for a hole or two.    To make those holes like the others, one would have to reroute the course entirely or do a huge amount of earth moving to build big artificial rolls.  Thank goodness that isn't Doak's style.  

As for the 18th, I like it very much, and think it gets better with every play.   I think if it were called a long par 4 with the tee up and it played like a par 4 1/2 it would get much less criticism but it wouldn't necessarily be a better hole.   Not the same type of thrills as the other wild-ride par 5's, but a challenging and fun hole nonetheless.  Ironically, I think it would be the best par 5 (if not the best hole) on many courses, including Black Rock.  But at Rock Creek the holes are all so spectacular and wild, that it is easy to pick on the flattest one,and it is not anywhere near flat.   To me it is a very appropriate finish for a ranch course.  Ranch houses are very often located next to a meadow and along a creek, so playing the hole evokes the satisfaction one feels riding home through a beautiful, cool meadow after a long day in the sun.

Another nice thing about this stretch is it makes for a terrific 3 hole warm up or practice loop, or gambling loop, or whatever.  If I was a member there I'd have a hard time resisting hoofing it over to the 16th tee whenever I had a free 1/2 hour or so.

Here is a photo from Rock Creek's website of the 18th, the hole most often criticized.  If this is the worst out there, then this ought to give those who haven't seen it an idea of how good the course is.   And it is better than it looks in this photo.  There is a steep uphill ridge in the landing area (for shorter hitters) that cannot really be seen in the photo, and it really helps to clear it on the drive.  And I think there is a definite advantage in approaching the green from the creek side, depending on the pin.  I hoped the hole would have a bit more right to left slope (like 5 at Merion) but the green is treacherous enough as is.



Again, no offense meant to Matt here.  I understand what he is saying about the hole.  But at the same time I think the criticism points out problems with the methodology more than it does with the course.
« Last Edit: August 14, 2009, 03:11:40 PM by DMoriarty »
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Tom Huckaby

Re: Rock Creek
« Reply #70 on: August 14, 2009, 02:57:49 PM »
Dave - that is a GREAT post.  That's really all I can say.  I read that and just kept saying

yep
he's right
great point

Both re the course specifically and the methodology generally.

Well done.

Good god I need to play this golf course.  Shivas is rarely right, but he's right about that.  Some day....
 
TH

Thomas Patterson

Re: Rock Creek
« Reply #71 on: August 14, 2009, 03:07:47 PM »
I second that...great post and agree completely. 

Tom - all this talk definitely makes me want to get out there too...maybe one day!

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rock Creek
« Reply #72 on: August 14, 2009, 03:13:54 PM »
Tom,

Thanks for the info and the background to each of those holes.  Looking back at the location of the 8th and 10th holes, the severity of the drop in to the creek makes perfect sense.

As for the 18, it certainly seems like it would have been neat to use that left side in some type of split fairway/heroic carry fashion. 

P.S.  The clubhouse patio is indeed very nice with the creek behind, even if I had to buy lunch due to my poor 1st round performance.  ;D


Matt_Ward

Re: Rock Creek
« Reply #73 on: August 14, 2009, 03:15:24 PM »
David M:

You missed my point and twisted it into something entirely different.

The issue is how the 18th stacks against the level of holes you encounter prior to the closing hole.

#16 and #17 are well done and I've already opined that the collective qualities of the par-4 holes there is certainly the best I have personally sampled from Team Doak.

In fact, I think the 16th hole may be one of the most demanding long par-4 holes I have played among new courses I've played that have opened in the last five (5) years.

David, you state an elementary and basic point with your take on the 18th hole. Of course, the layout has to end somewhere and my take on the 18th is that something better could have been done than what is there now. That comment doesn't mean the hole is a dog -- it's just not at the same level as the other par-5 holes you play at Rock Creek and frankly I was hoping for a closing hole that would provide a clear and comprehensive summary of what the day has been.

I can appreciaste your desire for the final hole as an "appropriate finish for a ranch course."

Another point to mention -- I never expect all courses to have home-run individual holes -- many courses will ebb and flow and in that spirit you will have transition holes / pieces of topography. The issue is does the character of a given hole provide something that is rather compelling. I just don't find the closing hole at Rock Creek compelling. I never suggested the closing hole -- given where it is located need to be an exact clone of others on the property. That is not what I said or implied.

I view Rock Creek in a similar fashion (albeit different style, etc, etc) like Cypress Point -- great holes leading up to the closing but then coming home with a flat finish. The courses, in both examples, still offer compelling architecture right up until that point. If the hole floats your boat -- that's good for you.

p.s. Let's give Black Rock it's due shall we -- although you see the course in far lesser light than I. The collective par-5's there are individually better than what you see with the 18th at Rock Creek in my mind.

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rock Creek
« Reply #74 on: August 14, 2009, 03:26:54 PM »
Matt, there is no use us arguing.  We view these things differently.  Fortunately, Doak doesn't tear up the landscape and it would be sacrilege to phony up the last hole after such a brilliant use of the landscape up until then.  I think if you played the 18th more, under different conditions, you would love it.  As for Black Rock, I would take the 18th at Rock Creek over any single hole at Black Rock by a long shot.  Anyone who wouldn't is speaking a language I don't understand.

________________________

Kalen, I think the creek is very much in play for those who want the best angle for the approach. 
« Last Edit: August 14, 2009, 03:29:59 PM by DMoriarty »
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Tags:
Tags:

An Error Has Occurred!

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()
Back