Rock Creek

[Garland Bayley]

I nominate Rock Creek for the Wide World of Golf Club Atlas Match Event #2!!!

Perhaps we can arrange a match between Huck and Shiv? I'd buy a ticket for that one!

Now we're talking! Especially since we know Matt Ward would never agree to one.

[Andy Troeger]

David -

I understand some people like the minimalist approach and that is fine (me too). The thing that gets me is everyone raves about Mike Strantz and his earthmoving, but when somone else does it, it stinks. Since this thread is about Rock Creek's stature with other modern courses, then I believe this conversation is fine. Again, Rock Creek, Sand Hills, Ballyneal and other minimalist courses are great, but I can appreciate other designs as well. Different strokes for different folks.

David,
I was going to post something similar to this--as Tom D. said some of it comes down to personal preference. In reading your post some of the reasons you like Rock Creek really mattered little to me--I think its a FUN golf course to play and it does have many "crazy good" holes that I'd never tire of playing. In terms of Black Rock I actually like the stark contrast of a green like the 11th. Its not like those rocks weren't always there and Jim came up with a way to create a unique and FUN hole out of it. We actually mentioned you while playing Black Rock because I remembered your comments from a previous thread. I don't really see any need to rehash everything given that none of us are going to convince the others of anything. I'll take FUN over natural appearances and stuff like that any day and Black Rock provides that about as well as anything I've played...except Rock Creek 

[Tom Huckaby]

I nominate Rock Creek for the Wide World of Golf Club Atlas Match Event #2!!!

Perhaps we can arrange a match between Huck and Shiv? I'd buy a ticket for that one!

IN as well.
Interestingly such is being considered.. sadly if such occurs, it will be 2010.
 

[Peter Pallotta]

I can't comment on the course(s), but it's striking to me that a brand new course can so early on be numbered amongst the top 5/10 of the moderns. On the one hand, I guess it has always been thus -- i.e. the published records seem to indicate that even 70 or 80 years ago, when a great golf course opened it was recognized as such immediately (often, even before it opened); but on the other hand, it brings into disrepute the oft-repeated notion that a great golf course evolves and develops and matures over time, or at least that it only reveals the fullness of its charm and quality over time, after repeated plays.  But maybe that evolution happens -- and is allowed to happen -- more in the UK (or at least it used to); maybe no one can afford to fund/design/own such a course in the US. Or maybe TOC is actually the only course that reveals its charms over time....

Just thinking out loud.
Peter

[Kalen Braley]

Thought I would add a few teaser pics here...

The entrance road sign..



The terrific yet very casual range.



Centerline bunker on #1 that is very much in play.



Tee shot on #2...just gorgeous.



After getting out of position on the short 5th with my tee shot, this was the approach I had.



A look at the 6th green complex from 100 yards or so away.



7 with its massive false front and a tricky pin placement the day we played.



Looking back up the hole from behind the green on the par 5 10th.



The approach into 11...



The 12th green - viewing from the right side.



#15 - Probably my favorite hole on the course....a look from just in front of the green side bunkers.



The approach to 16 after a well placed tee ball....(so-so shot with great result and angle in!!)



A look at the Pro_Shop from just left of the 18th green.

[DMoriarty]

I don't know how you guys define  a minimalist approach, but I was out at Rock Creek a few times during construction and it sure seemed like there were plenty of boulders and tons of dirt getting getting pushed around.   That you guys didn't notice is a tribute to Tom, Eric, and the crew. No such mistake is possible at Black Rock.

[Kalen Braley]

I too didn't find Rock Creek minimalist, but I did find it very naturalist.

I really wouldn't have a clue on where any massive amounts of dirts were moved...if I had to guess it would be hole 4 or 10 or #8 to create that green.

[Tom_Doak]

Actually the contour for golf at Rock Creek was even better than what is there today ... it was just impossible to put it back 100% after dealing with all the rocks.  [I'll credit Eric for getting a 98 or 99 on a very tough exam.]  If it had not been for the rocks, I don't think there would have been any real earthmoving there at all ... except maybe in the landing area on #14 and in doing a bit of leveling on #16 fairway.

There is a fair amount of change at the bottom of the hill on #10; that's where we buried a lot of the rocks from holes 9-13, and it raised the bottom of the landing area 5-6 feet.  But there was no need to do that if we didn't have so much rock.

[Tom_Doak]

No dynamite at all, Shivas.  Everything there was just loose boulders.  Some of them were the size of a toaster, but a lot of them were the size of your car, too.

[Eric Smith]

Thought I would add a few teaser pics here...


Tee shot on #2...just gorgeous.

Thank you KB for posting these pics.  Simply awesome.  From this side of the computer screen, having only these pictures to go by, RCCC may be the most attractive looking golf course AND golf landscape I have ever laid eyes on.  Well done indeed team Renaissance.

[Kalen Braley]

Perhaps you should have piled them all up neatly as cart path curbs for Franklin and Kalen instead? 

Hey Jimmy Boy was the one playing Mario Andretti out there not me.  My record is blemish free!! 

[Rob Rigg]

Guys - How is the walk with the rolling terrain?

It looked like Tom and the reporter walked it on the NW Golf TV show that was aired a while back.

Thanks for the photos Kalen - The setting is stunning and the course appears to have a great deal of strategic interest - the obfuscated fairway off the second tee is great stuff.

[David Kelly]

Guys - How is the walk with the rolling terrain?

It is not the easiest walk in the world but it is very doable. On the days I was there I walked 36 a day with no problems.

[Jason McNamara]

In any case that is one FINE choice to have.  Wanna come watch my kids instead?

 

All I can think of is "How'd you like to mow my lawn?"

[Craig Sweet]

Tom D said a wild shot might find a rocky lie...but as you might have noticed from Kalens photo's it would have to be a real wild drive...the fairways are very wide and rolling...

Rock Creek is easily top 5 on my list...the Par 4's are solid...real solid...and the par 5 #10 is as good a par five as you'll find ANYWHERE....

[Matt_Ward]

Gents:

Just to weigh in with a few thoughts ...

Few people will really embace personally the stylesof Doak and Engh. I like what both men offer because they are clearly different in their overall approaches. No doubt architect's have egos and no doubt they will profess a belief in what it is they create.

I've had the good fortune in playing a fair allotment of courses from both men.

Rock Creek is a stellar work from Doak and company. I have opined previously that the strength fo the course is the combination of tour de force par-4 holes you encounter. There are few weaknesses, if any, among this group. The stretch run from holes #4 thru #7 has already been mentioned and they are as a group among the finest back-to-back-to-back-to-back I've played.

The lone weakness for me about Rock Creek is the dropshot par-3 12th and the closing hole - a decent par-5 but one thrown into the picture to bring you back to the clubhouse. It provides a decent end but it's far from sensational given what has come before it.

Rock Creek is blessed with wonderful rolling terrain and there's a good mixture where power, accuracy and finesse are all brought together in one package.

Black Rock is clearly manufactured in the Engh style. It doesn't blend in as well as what you see with Rock Creek but there's a clear fun element that exists there as it does with the bulk of the other Engh courses I have played (approximately 15-16). Is Black Rock the 27th best course in the USA as deemed by the Digest panel? No, not from the ones I have played. In fact, I think there are a few Engh courses that are better in how they present themselves -- places like Pradera are right there -- I also see Four Mile Ranch as a layout of real fun and design quality -- no doubt many on this site have a liking for Lakota Canyon Ranch. 

Rock Creek will no doubt be rated when it gets the base number of people to provide numbers. It is THAT good in a number of ways and where it starts when it is eventualyl rated will be very interesting to see. For me - it clearly rates a spot in my personal top 50 in the USA. Black Rock would not grab such a high position.

[Sean Leary]

Jim or Andy,

How far of a drive is it from Coeur d' Alene? 3 hours? Farther.

I am bummed I haven't made it out there yet.

[Kalen Braley]

Jim or Andy,

How far of a drive is it from Coeur d' Alene? 3 hours? Farther.

I am bummed I haven't made it out there yet.

3.5 from CDA

[Sean Leary]

Jim or Andy,

How far of a drive is it from Coeur d' Alene? 3 hours? Farther.

I am bummed I haven't made it out there yet.

3.5 from CDA

Thanks Kalen. Just far enough to make it hard to do a day trip.

I am playing Black Rock in a couple of weeks and looking forward to it.

[Jim Colton]

Wow, Rccc is getting some universal praise. Looks like a must play. I know it's probably because it's remote, but there has been very little buzz about this course in the publications for something considered amongst the great modern courses. Where does Rock Creek rank on the polarizing scale?  Golf Magazine had it number four in the best new privates, with the following description: 'Some panelists felt this Tom Doak design was his best work since Pacific Dunes, while others were less inclined to laud, owing to the severely contoured greens.'

[John Kirk]

Hi Jim,

The greens at Rock Creek are not so much severe as they are complicated, filled with all sorts of internal contours.  Add in the prevailing slope of the terrain, and it is a very difficult course to read putts on.

Add me to the list of people who think Rock Creek is a great place to hang out and play golf.  Very high on my list of favorite places.

P.S.
It's great to hear Tomsay great things about Stone Eagle, which I am also very fond of.

[Matt_Ward]

Jim C:

The priase from me has nothing to do with the "remoteness factor."

Doak's work there is clearly more involved with a range of different holes and the desire, at least this time around, to create a depth of quality par-4 holes that is the best I have seen from him and the roughly 15-16 layouts of his I have played. In a number of other instances Doak layouts have accentuated the need for short and devilish type holes. Rock Creek provides testing par-4 holes that are wonderfully complimented by change of pace holes that keep the player from zoning in on one particular style of shot.

The greens, as mentioned by others, are also well done. No doubt they are have their contours and internal guessing games for the player. I think much of their mystery stems from the first time play -- they are no more contoured than what you see with other Doak layouts, namely Lost Dunes, to cite a very extreme example in my mind.

Rock Creek goes beyond the testing member play type layout and you need to work the ball -- from the tee -- to the most favorable positions. I personally believe the par-4 11th is one my favorite all-time Doak holes. Just well done -- borrows much of it's premise from a fairly similar hole with the 12th at Ballyneal.

I do agree that for those golf design junkies who want their time truly counted for something -- a round at Rock Creek will fit the bill very nicely indeed -- I just have a hard time handling the so-so finishing hole -- if the par-4 17th were the closer the place would be even higher rated in my mind. Forgetting that small aside -- Rock Creek is a gem and one any real golf nut will savor after playing there.

[Carl Nichols]

Is RCCC like Ballyneal in permitting someone to play one time in his/her lifetime without a member? 

[Kalen Braley]

Matt,

I would agree about needing to work the ball off the tee to the right spots.  But the fun doesn't end there.  One really has the option of using sideboards and otherwise to get the ball close to the hole... #7 and 15 immediately come to mind.

P.S. #17 is the downhill Par 3, but I think what you meant to say is the par 4 16th which is indeed a fantastic hole.

[Jim Franklin]

Matt -

If you think Lakota is anywhere near as good as Black Rock, you are nuts.

Now back to Rock Creek. I did not think the greens were as wild as Ballyneal, and like John K said, they are difficult to read with loads of subtle breaks. The practice green had me so confused before we played, I thought I would 3 putt every hole.