[Mike Hendren]

Yesterday I played my first Biarritz where the front plateau is not maintained as green.  While the hole is a fine specimen of the genre, I was extremely disappointed in its playability.  Playing at 200 yards the only reasonable play was to fly the ball onto the green which I did with a 5-wood that stopped hole high.

While visually attractive, the hole needed to play 240 yards for me (perhaps 270 from the tips for the better player) to make the ground game option viable, and even then the turf, which was reasonably firm was not friendly to such an approach.  

It would seem that this type hole shines only when the player must approach with a driver or 3-wood and the ground is rock-hard. Should clubs consider extreme lengthening of such holes, expansion of the green to include the front plateau,  softening the swale (i.e., by making it either more shallow or narrower) or all of the above for the hole to maintain its original intended challenge?  

I would be reluctant to advocate touching such treasures, but am just wondering since there is no greater treat in the game than to watch a bounding ball disappear into a swale and re--emerge on the other side.  There is also no greater disappointment than seeing the ball rock back and disappear into the bottom of the swale, from which a 3 putt is likely.

Bogey

[Chip Gaskins]

Bogey-

I totally agree with you.  I think it looks really cool, but I simply can not get a ball to run on the green.  I have played several versions this year and none have I been able to run the ball once on the green.  Only one had a hole cut on the front pad and all were over 200 yards and under 225...so a solid 3 iron / hybrid to the swale and then none would release for me....so in theory, very fun, but hard to pull off in practice.  Maybe back in the day the front pad was hard enough to really run it back but today I can't see it happening very often.

I am not sure what the answer is...

Chip

[Tim Gavrich]

I think the by-the-book Biarritz might be slightly flawed, although undeniable interesting anyway.  I think the "ideal" Biarritz-type hole should be like this:

Of a ~65 yard long green area, only the rear 30 yards or so should be maintained as green, with a 3-5 yard, fairly steep false front.

The 35 yards short of the green should consist of a long slope forward until about 3 yards short of the front edge of the green and should, of course, be maintained firm and fast.

This would allow players to land the ball 10-20 yards short of the green in order to scurry the ball up onto the green.  But this necessitates committing to a run up shot.  If the player ambivalently tries to land the ball at the front edge, the ball will die on the false front.  The portion that is maintained as green should be too shallow to allow a ball that carries the false front to hold the green.  Does this make sense?

Since most people agree that front pins on "full Biarritz" holes are inferior, why make them a possibility?

[Damon Groves]

I would argue that the hole does have to play that long. The Biarritz at Old Mac is 181 from an elevated tee and plays fantastic.

[Kevin_Reilly]

Bogey-- I posted the same question in this thread about Chicago GC:  http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,40753.0/

Would be interested to know why it is done that way.

[Chip Gaskins]

The ones that I know of that don't mow the front pad to green height are: Piping Rock (the first U.S. Biarritz I think), Chicago Golf Club, and Blue Mound.  I am sure there are more, I just haven't seen them.  The better question for George Bahto, Brad Klein, Tom Doak, Jim Urbina, etc why the change some time between Piping Rock and Creek Club....maintenance or playability?

I assume the 181 version at Old Mac is all dependent on the wind.  Obviously a hole of that length that is not into the wind requiring a low running shot would never really need or utilize the front pad, at least for running the ball into the hole location.

[Rob Rigg]

The Biarritz at Old Mac is also all green, with no "run up" short grass which makes sense with the elevated tee shot.

[Tim Gerrish]

"Since most people agree that front pins on "full Biarritz" holes are inferior, why make them a possibility?"

If playing at a distance requiring the longest or irons and fairway woods then is simply distance control.  Can you hit the ball 230 vs. 240 yards.  If not you might be in the swale. 

Many, many, many golfers do not have that kind of distance accuracy that I've witnessed on a regular basis.     

[Jimmy Muratt]

Perhaps someone on here can answer this or help explain....

Were all Biarritz holes originally intended to have the front portion maintained as green?  If not, what determined why some were and some weren't?  I'm not a big fan of Biarritz holes that don't have the front portion maintained as green.  They very rarely ever play firm enough where running the ball up is even an uption. 

The great thing about Biarritz holes where both plateaus and the swale are all green are the interesting putts and short game options that you're presented with. 

[TEPaul]

"The better question for George Bahto, Brad Klein, Tom Doak, Jim Urbina, etc why the change some time between Piping Rock and Creek Club....maintenance or playability?"

Chip:

The Creek did not begin mowing the front section as greenspace, as I was told by someone at the club who was the first to mow it, until the mid-1960s at the very earliest. The only biarritz I'm sure had front section greenspace originally was Yale. Some think Westhampton and Fox Chapel may've had it originally but that cannot be confirmed.

[Bill_McBride]

Bogey, remember #7, the reverse Redan / Biarritz hybrid at Pensacola CC? (Jerry Pate/Steve Dana 2005)



This is a long hole, 245 from the tips, 215 from the blues, 201 from the whites.  In the photo you can see the little kickplate on the left front corner, and a glimpse of the swale on the right side.

I have been very happy with this hole, our #1 handicap index, because it's a whole lot of fun seeing a running shot scoot off that kickplate, onto the front and then down into the swale and eventually back up again.  The fairway out in front is kept very firm so all this works.  It can be disastrous to the occasional double-crosser, as there is OB hard left of the hole.

The front section of the green - yes, it's mowed as putting surface - is best approached with a high shot to avoid going too far and going down into the swale.

[Tom_Doak]

Tom Paul:

The Creek was not mowing the front part of their Biarritz as fairway in the 1980's when I first saw it.  They "restored" it when we re-did those greens in 1993 ... we re-grassed the whole island and they just decided to start mowing it all as green.  There was never an old picture that showed it that way.

Likewise, in regard to Jimmy's question, most of the old photos I have seen of Biarritz holes, dating back to the mid-1920's, do NOT show the front part mowed as putting green.

Chip:

It's about 215 to the back hole location at Old Macdonald, but since the green is 78 yards long, it's only 181 to the middle.  I guarantee you there are lots of days when it will be better to land in the front part of the green there.  In fact, I think the hole location in the front of the green is a really good one ... short, but hard to hold on and not go into the swale.  But, Mr. Keiser does not like the putt from the swale back up toward the front, so he's been lobbying not to use front hole locations there.

[Mike Policano]

Gents, I played a redone Biarritz recently and the swale was not wide enough for pin positions.  Should a biarritz be pinnable in the swale?  Is it in the original? Old Mac? I am a fan of Yale's.

Cheers, Mike

[Anthony Gray]

  Bogey,

  Sounds like No 4 at Lookout Mountain. I have always believed a true biarritz has the grren infront and in back of the swale.

  Anthony

 

[Bill Brightly]

We just restored our Biarritz at Hackensack (Banks) putting back the front bunkers (which were taken out during WW II), deepening the swale, and mowing the front section to green height (which took about 3 years to begin to play like a true green.) We did lots of research, and this is what I believe:

When first built in the 1920's, the front sections were never putting surfaces, but they did not need to be. Without irrigation systems, these extremely long par 3's required a low running shot (called a Biarritz shot) hit hard enough to go down and up the swale with just the right force. Remember, there was no aerial game back then, no one flew it to the pin.

I think all Biarritz'z should be altered so the front section is green height, but the pin should NEVER be there, (except Mondays and Tuesdays ). Keeping the front section as putting green is the only way to create an approach that is fast and firm enough to allow the roll required to make the hole play as a Biarritz should play. What fairway plays as fast as a putting green?

We also added a new back tee so the hole can play 250-260, so only the longest players can fly it to the pin, but they really risk knocking it over. It is far harder to control your distance with a 3-wood than a long iron.

The pin should NEVER be in the swale! That is just goofy.

I can tell you that our hole is SO much more fun now. So many balls roll up, and then back down the swale. The putts from the swale are really tricky. I would never want to see us go back to fairway height grass.

I also should add that this change was by far the most controversial in a full course restoration plan that passed a membership vote 188-9. I doubt that the Biarritz change would have passed on its own. So many people found this hole to be "odd" and not like anything they have ever played before. (Five years ago, when I knew NOTHING about golf course architecture and Macdonald, I too thought it ws a crazy idea.)  Few people really cared about the lineage of this hole from Banks to Raynor to Macdonald. I have good friends who really disliked the changes. But what has been so cool to observe is how the hole is catching on! Players who could not reach with driver are now getting enough roll to make it up the swale. When the pin is on the back but cut close to the swale, players have putted from past the pin back down the swale. There is a brand new element of randomness that has been added to the course now, and I think in time it will become a favorite of many members.

[Bill Brightly]

 The only biarritz I'm sure had front section greenspace originally was Yale. Some think Westhampton and Fox Chapel may've had it originally but that cannot be confirmed.


[/quote]

Don't be so sure Tom! A few years ago Anthony Pioppi produced a newspaper arictle from the 1920's that discussed the new course at Yale, and it described an approach leading up to a swale. I have the article in my office.

[George_Bahto]

so you fellas are complaing about how hard a Biarritz is -

well imagine how hard they were when they were were built in the 1920's


today you bazooka drivers with incredible shafts and trampoline faces plus a hot golf ball

 

[Damon Groves]

Tom Paul:

The Creek was not mowing the front part of their Biarritz as fairway in the 1980's when I first saw it.  They "restored" it when we re-did those greens in 1993 ... we re-grassed the whole island and they just decided to start mowing it all as green.  There was never an old picture that showed it that way.

Likewise, in regard to Jimmy's question, most of the old photos I have seen of Biarritz holes, dating back to the mid-1920's, do NOT show the front part mowed as putting green.

Chip:

It's about 215 to the back hole location at Old Macdonald, but since the green is 78 yards long, it's only 181 to the middle.  I guarantee you there are lots of days when it will be better to land in the front part of the green there.  In fact, I think the hole location in the front of the green is a really good one ... short, but hard to hold on and not go into the swale.  But, Mr. Keiser does not like the putt from the swale back up toward the front, so he's been lobbying not to use front hole locations there.

Tom -

When I played Old Mac the pin was in the front and my ball just came to a stop before going into the swale. Tell Mr. Keiser the front location is fantastic. A ton of fun.

[Jaeger Kovich]

I have only played 2 biarritz holes (old mac and yale), but it seemed to me the cool thing about the hole is the putt from one side to the other. Obviously the main strategy to the hole is the club selection process, as it is with most par3's, but I think the hole becomes more fun when you are on the wrong side! I hit 2 balls in the water at yale, so what did I do? dropped a ball on the back and tried to make it to the pin on the front... to me that is the most exciting shot on the hole and one that you certainly remember, unless you have a kick in bird!

[Kyle Harris]

Perhaps this problem didn't exist 80 years ago when greens and fairways were maintained very differently.

Remember, there was a point where the "putting green" was practically defined as being within 30 (?) feet of the flag. Isn't it highly likely that the maintenance of the grass had more to do with the perception of the front area being putting green than the actual design?

Shouldn't function follow form here?

[Bill Brightly]

Jaeger,

It is far more than club "selection." With a really firm and fast Biarritz, you have to know how far your ball is going to roll once it lands.

At 250 yards, I need a full 3 wood to fly the ball over the swale, but every so often my full 3 wood draws, and that ball runs long (and risks being lost as 15 feet over the green is dead) so it is really hard to make that swing with confidence. A cut 3 wood never goes far enough, nor will a full 5 wood, because it fliies too high and lands too softly.

So I have been working on a stinger 3 wood that lands short of the swale and rolls up. It works pretty well on the driving range...but has never worked in a match! That is simply a shot that we do not play in the US.  My next plan is a hooked 3 iron that runs a LONG way.

[Mike McGuire]

Without an option of running a shot thru the swale there is no purpose to having a Biarritz.

A hole maintained this way is a green with a ditch in front and some out of place bunkers along a front pad that looks like it should be a green.

Just played the biarritz at Blue Mound Monday.

[Jim Nugent]

Without an option of running a shot thru the swale there is no purpose to having a Biarritz.

Can you run the ball through the swale at Yale's Biarritz? 

[Colin Sheehan]

It appears very likley the front half of 9 at Yale was maintained as green in 1934.

When the green in firm in the fall (October, especially) I've seen people "thin" 3 and 5-woods through the swale to the back half.

David Paterson, the now retired long-serving Yale golf coach and director of golf, always thought the swale on 9 was an homage to the Old Course's Valley of Sin. Just like the swale on the front right of 10th at Yale as well. He thought that too was a variation on the theme. 

[Bill_McBride]

Without an option of running a shot thru the swale there is no purpose to having a Biarritz.

Can you run the ball through the swale at Yale's Biarritz? 

It's a long enough shot that most anything landing on the front will run down into the swale and hopefully up onto the back.  But you can't land short of the green, there's a pond there!

[Tags:]

Tags:

[Tags:]

Tags:

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()