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TEPaul

Re: Tillinghast's PGA Course Consultation Tour... Come for the ride...
« Reply #50 on: August 18, 2009, 07:01:50 PM »
Tilly's architectural TRANSFORMATION?!

Wow, this should be interesting. I didn't really know he had one in the 1930s but Tom MacWood apparently does. I wonder if it had anything to do with the economic realities of the time for American clubs?

Tom, while you're at it with Tilly, do you think you could also wax eloquent about whatever architectural or philosophical differences Tilly ever had with one Charles Blair Macdonald? In a quite nice article eulogy to Macdonald, Tilly did say he did have some differences or disagreements with him. I assume you don't think Tilly was joking about that as you assumed Darwin was joking when he said an aweful lot of late 19th century inland GB courses looked like "steeplechase" courses.  ;)

Phil_the_Author

Re: Tillinghast's PGA Course Consultation Tour... Come for the ride...
« Reply #51 on: August 18, 2009, 07:07:19 PM »
Jason,

      You had two questions. The first, "Why were those guys able to do amazing work in a day when the most admired modern architects max out at a few courses per year?"
      That is a really tough question. I think there are a variety of reasons. Just as today's player knows far more about the various technical aspects of what would constitute a perfect golf swing, in general today's architects are far more schooled than their predecessors who were designing and building courses from 1910-1940 in what makes for good design and the techniques necessary for reproducing the drawing on the ground. They have far more tools available to them to create good designs and technological advances such as computers vs. pencil & paper to do so. That is why I believe that MOST of today's architects are far superior to those who were designing & building courses during those years and that their work shows it. We are far more willing to accept that there are a lot of architects today that we don't know about than to admit the same thing of that time period. For all of the great courses that Tilly, Mackenzie, Flynn, Macdonald, Raynor & others created, there were many, many more designed and built by forgotten men. On balance the courses from that time are lesser in quality than those done today; but the masterworks... that's a different story. No one can predict when a DaVinci or a Michaelangelo will appear and astound us; the same is true of a Tillinghast or CBM or Mackenzie. Yet today there is Doak & Coore & Crenshaw and a few others whose best works can stand comparison to the great ones of old.
      I don't know if that is a good answer, but I hope it helps...
      You also asked, "I would love to see the goals of Tillie's tour (reduced cost and increased quality in order to allow courses to survive and promote the profession) pursued today.  If such an effort took place, what would be done?"
      It is interesting that you suggest that. I have recently sent a letter off to the PGA of America wherein io reference Tilly's great work and George Jacobus leadership as president which enabled its accomplishment with a suggestion.
      For those who have never ventured down to the PGA of AMERICA'S Museum & Otto Probst Research Library in Port St. Lucie, I can't recommend a trip there strongly enough... it is a wonderful place to do research! Anyway, the library has seating for 60+ and I suggested that the PGA offer a series of seminars to be conducted by as many different architects and other experts in specific related fields as would like to participate for free are brought in to discuss issues related to restorations, renovations, maintenance problems and answers and techniques.
      I think this could be done inexpensively enough on the part of the PGA that there would be no charge for those attending. I think the benefits could be enormous.
      That is just one idea...       

Phil_the_Author

Re: Tillinghast's PGA Course Consultation Tour... Come for the ride...
« Reply #52 on: August 18, 2009, 07:21:43 PM »
Chris,

      I, too, would love to "know the amount of the work that Tillinghast recommended that was not performed / completed." In fact, that is one of the purposes for this thread. I am hoping that when someone sees a course mentioned that they are a member of or interested in learning about that they will find out the answer to that question and share it with all, and especially with me!
      You stated that, "I know for a fact that the Edison Club did not reroute / redo a third of their Dev Emmet course.  Additionally, I find it astonishing that any pragmatic person would recommend the complete rerouting of 9 of 27 holes to save money???"
      In an effort to save space I gave a brief synopsis of what was contained in Tilly's report regarding Edison. When you see what was actually written you'll understand that Tilly did not "recommend the complete rerouting of 9 of 27 holes" for any reason, including that of saving money. Here is what he wrote:

      "This morning I went with McBride to the Edison Country Club, where Alex McIntyre is pro'. Accompanied by him, McBride, Bob Mitchell (greenkeeper) and A.F. McKnight (inventor of the Schenectady Putter, The Steel Shaft and an official of the General Electric Co.) I carefully investigated their problem. This concerned a new arrangement of the last holes from the 13th, -in. They all seemed to be greatly satisfied with my recommendations, particularly the economy and simplicity of my plan. They were most cordial and expressed their appreciation of the P.G.A. service..."

      Tilly's visit to Edison was arranged with a specific agenda of the Club in mind. He was there to discuss a problem that THEY saw. The club had decided to redesign & reroute those holes and decided to take advantage of the timeliness of Tilly's visit to decide how to go about doing. So Tilly did not arrive and say, "Hey guys, your course is pretty good but i think I see a way to redesign your last 6 holes..."

      Did they do the work? Was it according to Tilly's recommendations? I don't know. I would love to know why you think it didn't happen...

Phil_the_Author

Re: Tillinghast's PGA Course Consultation Tour... Come for the ride...
« Reply #53 on: August 18, 2009, 11:24:45 PM »
August 19, 1935:

This day was a very long one for Tilly. having arrived at Rochester the night before and not having any fixed agenda for the day, he went out to the "Rochester Country Club (or correctly the Country Club of Rochester). I went over the course critically and made friends generally. I have an appointment with George Christ there tomorrow afternoon. In the morning I go over to the Irondequoit Country Club at the request of their PGA pro, Frank Commisso. There I will confer with the chairman of the Green committee at the request of the committee, headed by Nelson Corkhill."

So what made this such a long day? Just that morning he had been informed that a meeting had been set up for him to speak to a gathering of local PGA pro's about the PGA Service, and what a meeting it was!

Tilly actually began that day's letter by writing, "It is after midnight as I write this report... The meeting of the PGA pro's at the Powers Hotel did not break up until a half hour ago. There was a fine attendance of 25 or possibly 30 of the leading professionals of this district. In my talk to them I outlined the plan of the PGA service and everyone expressed their hearty appreciation and approval. Already there have been fourteen requests [remember he went to Rochester with but a single definite course to visit] for my services in this district and the officials are amazed and delighted. At the gathering tonight I invited a general discussion and succeeded in getting nearly everyone to ask many questions. I was very gratified..."

Total courses visited: 14

Phil_the_Author

Re: Tillinghast's PGA Course Consultation Tour... Come for the ride...
« Reply #54 on: August 19, 2009, 01:54:16 AM »
Chris,

Here's some more on Edison that indicates that a major redesign did take place after 1931...

In 1926, it opened for play with 18 holes at 6,150 yards. It stayed this way until at least 1929.

In the 1930/31 American Annual golf guide it lists it as having two courses totaling 27 holes. 18 holes at 6,525 yards AND 9 holes at 3,180 yards. This adds up to a total of 9,706 yards for the 27 holes.

According to their website, today the 27 holes measure from the Whites- 9,456 & from the Blues-9,927 yards.

Clearly there have been some changes since 1931. Were these the result of Tilly's redesign? I think it is very much worth looking into!

Phil_the_Author

Re: Tillinghast's PGA Course Consultation Tour... Come for the ride...
« Reply #55 on: August 20, 2009, 12:12:09 AM »
August 20, 1935:

This morning Tilly began his day by visiting the Irondequoit Country Club at the request of PGA Professional, Frank Commisso. He "made an examination of the third green, which was wrongly located. I gave them a plan for another green on a perfectly natural spot, to the right of the present green. Turf from the present green is to be used. Then the short fourth green is reached from a new teeing ground, located in a grove of evergreens. This arrangement solved their problem in a highly satisfactory manner."

Notice how Tilly mentioned that he "gave them a plan..." he meant this literally. Many times during the tour he would sketch out what he recommended on the spot and leave it with them. This is what he did here.

In the afternoon he met with George Christ at the Lake Shore Country Club. He wrote, "The first, second, third, fourth and sixth holes are parallel and monotonous with badly designed, flat greens. They desired to change this arrangement and add two holes elsewhere on the property. I carefully studied the situation and arrived at the only solution. I also gave them instructions for the correction of the faulty greens. This occupied the entire day..."

In laying out his ever-growing itinerary for the next week in which he has gone from no appointments to more than 20 and now is scheduled to give two different talks in the evenings, he reiterates the main goal for this service tour; to aid and help PGA professionals so that their jobs are secure and they can get paid as valuable assets to the clubs they serve rather than simply hired hands. He does this by writing, "By the way, I have had requests from two other clubs, which I DECLINED because their pro's are NOT PGA MEMBERS. I am going nowhere unless at the request of your members..."

I've often wondered if they joined after that...

Total courses visited: 16

Chris_Blakely

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Tillinghast's PGA Course Consultation Tour... Come for the ride...
« Reply #56 on: August 20, 2009, 07:36:39 AM »
Chris,

Here's some more on Edison that indicates that a major redesign did take place after 1931...

In 1926, it opened for play with 18 holes at 6,150 yards. It stayed this way until at least 1929.

In the 1930/31 American Annual golf guide it lists it as having two courses totaling 27 holes. 18 holes at 6,525 yards AND 9 holes at 3,180 yards. This adds up to a total of 9,706 yards for the 27 holes.

According to their website, today the 27 holes measure from the Whites- 9,456 & from the Blues-9,927 yards.

Clearly there have been some changes since 1931. Were these the result of Tilly's redesign? I think it is very much worth looking into!


First The Edison Club was built in two phases that is how 27 holes got there!!!

Second there has been some lengthening and bunker additions in recent years by a local NY / NJ architect.

The work on the ground there is very much Dev Emmet - routing and many bunkers.

Chris


Phil_the_Author

Re: Tillinghast's PGA Course Consultation Tour... Come for the ride...
« Reply #57 on: August 20, 2009, 07:53:00 AM »
Chris,

I have no idea if the recommendations were ever followed at Edison. They were the result of Tilly being invited by the club to look at very specific problems and give ideas as to how to go about handling them. The majority of clubs Tilly visited on the tour also had him look at very specific problems and that is why his recommendations deal with those things...

Phil_the_Author

Re: Tillinghast's PGA Course Consultation Tour... Come for the ride...
« Reply #58 on: August 20, 2009, 11:24:59 PM »
August 21, 1935:

"I put in the day ion a critical examination of Rochester's Municipal courses..." So began this days report of his activities, and an interesting one it was!

He did this at the request of Park Commissioner Patrick J. Slavin, "who accompanied me, and who was good enough to inform me that our service was most helpful. The service was possible because George Collins (PGA member) is pro at Genesee Valley Municipal Course and John McGrath (PGA member) is pro at the Durand-Eastman Municipal Course... in addition (at the Durand-Eastman course) Custer Stallman, greenkeeper was with us and a very intelligent man I found him to be..."

"At Genesee Valley my advice was directed particularly to the location of a new short fifth hole: a new location of the sixth green to relieve a dangerous congestion and a new plan for the eighteenth hole's green. There were other details which the commissioner presented to me for advice..."

"The Durand-Eastman course is a comparatively new one, developed by government funds for labour relief at great cost. Several of the greens are so grotesque in their conception that already the authorities recognize the necessity for complete reconstruction. Notably the fifth and sixth greens are included in this and I gave them considerable advice concerning new plans and construction methods. My investigation of this course was particularly thorough for their problems are many. They hope that I may be able to return to help them more at a future time..."

This was the first visit to a course built with WPA funds and oversight since Tilly's experience with Bethpage. It would not be the last one of this type that he was very critical of.

He closed his report by talking about the success of the service in Rochester. "Rochester's reception of the new PGA service has been genuinely appreciative. I am not attempting to make contacts to boost the service for I find it being applied for in an amazing manner and there is no dearth of requests.

He closed his report with this somewhat prophetic statement. "I ought to be two men."

Little did he know that he was about to get really busy!

Total courses visited: 18

By the way, for those interested in this detail, Tilly has yet to recommend the removal of a single DH...

Phil_the_Author

Re: Tillinghast's PGA Course Consultation Tour... Come for the ride...
« Reply #59 on: August 21, 2009, 11:53:22 PM »
August 22, 1935:

"Left Rochester at 7 this morning and motored 90 miles here..." Here is Syracuse and there was no highway system such as we enjoy today. That was a LONG, HOT and UNCOMFORTABLE ride! Still, as Tilly put it, he arrived in "good time to go over the Bellevue Country Club course with William Entwhistle... Solved his problems of a new green for the fifth and another new green for the sixth, and then continued over most of the course, answering various questions..."

In the afternoon Tilly "went to the course of the Syracuse Yacht Club and went over a greater part of the layout with PGA member Tom Newlove and green committeeman Arthur Johnson. As requested I found a new location for a fourth green and gave directions for its construction. Also located a new seventh and instructed construction details. Corrected several faulty features as requested..."

As blasé' as this short report sounds, consider carefully what Tilly has said. He used phrases such as "solved his problems" and "answering various questions" and "as requested." Tilly was visiting these and all the other courses at THEIR REQUEST to answer THEIR QUESTIONS and provide recommendations to resolve THEIR PROBLEMS. He was not approaching them with an agenda of items. That was the purpose of the service, to provide aid and value for the PGGA members.

That evening, as was previously arranged, Tilly spoke before "the pro's and greenkeepers of your section here at a meeting at the Onondaga Hotel... The meeting passed off nicely and was so satisfactory that the members did not disband until after eleven o'clock. Am leaving at six in the morning for Batavia."

For at least the 4th time Tilly has spent an evening speaking at a meeting after a long day examining golf courses. By the time he got back to his hotel it was well after midnight and he was planning on being on the road at 6am. Yet his day wasn't finished as he now had to type up this and other individual reports before turning in. Would he even get three hours sleep?

Total courses visited: 20


Phil_the_Author

Re: Tillinghast's PGA Course Consultation Tour... Come for the ride...
« Reply #60 on: August 23, 2009, 08:39:39 PM »
Sorry for the delay in oposting today's!

August 23, 1935:

Tilly began this day's report by stating, "This has been my most crowded day..."

He first visited the Churchville Park Golf Course where he "examined particularly an unsatisfactory 225 yard hole, the fourteenth, and gave them a plan for rearrangement; also the greens of two others. However, they wanted advise principally concerning the fairway of the seventeenth, where a very tight clay soil has badly interfered with turf development. I gave them necessary instructions."

The Stafford Country Club followed. Here he "Inspected the entire course, which had been laid out by the late Walter Travis. The course fair reeked with unnecessary sand traps and formal mounds. They readily agreed with my advice to do away with many of these, appreciating the fact that they penalized only the poor shots of mediocre players. I am sticking steadfastly to the principle of "More enjoyable golf for more players." I also advise slight reconstructions of several greens, which do not hold lofted shots..."

This is the FIRST recommendation made at any course to remove DH's. Note that he included "formal mounds" along with sand traps as being these.

He next went to the East Aurora Country Club. There he "inspected the course, giving definite advice concerning the bunkering of greens of two short holes, the third and the sixth. However they wanted to see me particularly concerning the deterioration of the fescue fairway. I diagnosed the condition as lack of fertilization, and they admitted that for several years they had economized in this respect. I advised them to send soil samples to Dr. Monteith for analysis and direction as to the character of proper fertilization, which they will do immediately..."

Once again surprises compounded his schedule. Tilly wrote that when "Arriving at the East Aurora club I found a telephone call awaiting me from Buffalo... requesting me to address a meeting of Pro's, greenkeepers and committeemen at Buffalo on Monday night..."

Total courses visited: 23


Chris_Blakely

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Tillinghast's PGA Course Consultation Tour... Come for the ride...
« Reply #61 on: August 24, 2009, 11:21:34 PM »
"So as not to distract from the main purpose of this thread I will start a new thread about Tilly's architectural transformation."


Smart idea, Tom. Since the subject is bound to be quite similar perhaps you could also pull up that thread you started a few years ago about Tilly's PGA Tour that I think was entitled; "Did Tilly sell out his principles?"

Just so the facts are straight, I posted a link to that thread (on Tilly's Curious Transformation) and Cirba started it, not Tom!!!

http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,12519.0/

I did and still do think there is value to exploring the various reasons that Tillinghast went to work altering numerous courses of the PGA.  Considering the penal nature of Bethpage Black and Red, I would like to know more about the bunker removals on mnay of the courses that he visited (I completely agree with Mike and Tom on the thread link above).  I still am not buying much of what Phil is writing about, it strikes me as a tad bit revisionist history.  Depression was on and and this was a way to redesign courses that as of yet did not bear his mark.

Chris

Phil_the_Author

Re: Tillinghast's PGA Course Consultation Tour... Come for the ride...
« Reply #62 on: August 25, 2009, 05:30:07 AM »
Chris,

A few thoughts  and questions for you.

You stated, "I did and still do think there is value to exploring the various reasons that Tillinghast went to work altering numerous courses of the PGA."

So do I.

You continued, "Considering the penal nature of Bethpage Black and Red, I would like to know more about the bunker removals on many of the courses that he visited..."

What correlation do YOU see between the bunkering at Bethpage and removals of bunkers during the Tour, and why?

You went on, "I still am not buying much of what Phil is writing about, it strikes me as a tad bit revisionist history..."

Whenever someone states an historical conclusion that differs from what has been generally held the phrase "revisionist history" is often used. Quite often the revisionist is proven correct. Now that is a self-serving statement, yet true nonetheless. But could I ask you in SPECIFIC what some of the things are that I have written that you are "not buying?"

You finished by saying, "Depression was on and this was a way to redesign courses that as of yet did not bear his mark."

To me that is revisionist historical thinking. You are imbuing motives to Tilly based upon looking backward rather than putting yourself in his time and personal place. Now that is something that historians do and is part of the process of understanding, but to do so properly one needs to have researched time, place and person intimately. This isn't meant as a contentious question, but can you really say that you have done that in this case? For example, have you read all of Tilly's letters and reports to Jacobus at the PGA? What was day-to-day life for Tilly like in 1934-35 before going out on tour? What is always forgotten and appears so still despite my having mentioned her several times is Lillian, Tilly's wife. She was integral to his accepting this position and greatly aided him day-to-day while on the tour. Why would she do this? Have you & your wife ever gone on a working trip of two weeks together, driving the entire time, not knowing where you would be staying and who you would be dealing with? How would you be after a month? Two? A year... And we have an interstate highway system, modern hotels and facilities of all kinds, AAA for problems, ATM machines, and on and on...

Other questions for you to consider when making conclusions about Tilly's motivations and the Tour. We know that Tilly & Jacobus thought that it would only last a few months. A year was ay beyond anything they considered and yet it actually went on for more than two. Do you think that Tilly & Lillian would have agreed to do it if they had known? Do you think that Jacobus & the PGA would have asked Tilly and planned to fund it for that long knowing as we do how close to bankruptcy the PGA was at the time?

There are so many other factors involved. Wear and tear on the car. Flat tires and where to get gasoline ion some areas. Simple practicalities such as laundry and who to visit (we've already seen that, especially in these first few weeks, that Tilly was left swinging in the wind a bit by not hearing from Jacobus and having many extra duties put upon him such as scheduling visits and doing interviews and giving talks that had not been planned for.

There is a HUGE big picture here that, with few exceptions, everyone who has made conclusions about what was done and why and Tilly's motivations in doing so have both overlooked and do so without any real research into it.

That is one of the main reasons why I am doing this thread; to provide as much of those details in this small space as possible so that conclusions that more accurately reflect the reality and truth of what they did can be better drawn.

Keep an open mind is all I ask...


Phil_the_Author

Re: Tillinghast's PGA Course Consultation Tour... Come for the ride...
« Reply #63 on: August 25, 2009, 05:55:56 AM »
August 25, 1935:

We skip a day because Tilly did... well, actually he spent the 24th travelling up to Niagara Falls where he arrived around noon. As had happened in almost every place he visited to this point, he found his plans unexpectedly changing as he arrived.

Tilly wrote that he, "Arrived according to schedule at Niagara Falls at noon on Saturday (yesterday). I had hoped for a day to rest up on Sunday but Park superintendant Ward Dean was detained away from town and my inspection of the municipal course had to go over until this morning. However on Saturday afternoon I visited to Niagara Falls Country Club where I was warmly welcomed by Alfred Campbell (PGA pro')... and Walter Radford, greenkeeper. Both of these are old friends of mine and we had some instructive discussions of the turf conditions as we inspected the greens and turf on the fairway. It is true that this is the first visit without request, excepting that to John Lord at Amsterdam, but nevertheless it was a good one to make and I find that both Alf Campbell and Walt Radford are inn hearty accord with the PGA Service, the former declaring, 'It is one of the greatest things the PGA has ever done.' It happens I put in several holes on the Niagara Falls course seventeen years ago and Radford was there then...
     
That morning Tilly was accompanied by Park Superintendant Ward Dean and they inspected the municipal course. "While the entire twenty-seven holes were covered for the most part the information they wanted was particularly directed to a new green at the fourteenth to replace one that was faulty in contour and plan; improvements to the short third and my opinion of a new dog-leg fairway for the eleventh on what is known as the new course. This is to make room for the anticipated erection of a new golf house. It necessitates a slight change in the contour of the green. I also advised the elimination of several superfluous hazards, typical 'Duffer's Headaches.'"

So a day off they were both looking forward to and probably greatly needed vanished. In addition, Tilly would add that he was now scheduled to give another talk the following night...

Total courses visited: 26

Chris_Blakely

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Tillinghast's PGA Course Consultation Tour... Come for the ride...
« Reply #64 on: August 25, 2009, 07:47:48 AM »



What correlation do YOU see between the bunkering at Bethpage and removals of bunkers during the Tour, and why?

I would love to know what bunkers on courses Tillinghast did not design were considered "superfluos" and how that compared to say the orginal bunkering on the black hole between holes 10 and 11 or the waste area on holes 4 and 5 (or should I have used all caps somewhere?)!!!!




Whenever someone states an historical conclusion that differs from what has been generally held the phrase "revisionist history" is often used. Quite often the revisionist is proven correct. Now that is a self-serving statement, yet true nonetheless. But could I ask you in SPECIFIC what some of the things are that I have written that you are "not buying?"

I have already pointed some them out, I am not doing it again.


You finished by saying, "Depression was on and this was a way to redesign courses that as of yet did not bear his mark."

To me that is revisionist historical thinking. You are imbuing motives to Tilly based upon looking backward rather than putting yourself in his time and personal place. Now that is something that historians do and is part of the process of understanding, but to do so properly one needs to have researched time, place and person intimately. This isn't meant as a contentious question, but can you really say that you have done that in this case? For example, have you read all of Tilly's letters and reports to Jacobus at the PGA? What was day-to-day life for Tilly like in 1934-35 before going out on tour? What is always forgotten and appears so still despite my having mentioned her several times is Lillian, Tilly's wife. She was integral to his accepting this position and greatly aided him day-to-day while on the tour. Why would she do this? Have you & your wife ever gone on a working trip of two weeks together, driving the entire time, not knowing where you would be staying and who you would be dealing with? How would you be after a month? Two? A year... And we have an interstate highway system, modern hotels and facilities of all kinds, AAA for problems, ATM machines, and on and on...

I know I am able to determine what a motive is with the depression and needing work!

Why post a contentious question and then say it is not meant to be so??????  Come on!!!  As for the tirp in the 30's with his wife, have you done the same??


Other questions for you to consider when making conclusions about Tilly's motivations and the Tour. We know that Tilly & Jacobus thought that it would only last a few months. A year was ay beyond anything they considered and yet it actually went on for more than two. Do you think that Tilly & Lillian would have agreed to do it if they had known? Do you think that Jacobus & the PGA would have asked Tilly and planned to fund it for that long knowing as we do how close to bankruptcy the PGA was at the time?

And yet, he kept going from course to course . . .


There are so many other factors involved. Wear and tear on the car. Flat tires and where to get gasoline ion some areas. Simple practicalities such as laundry and who to visit (we've already seen that, especially in these first few weeks, that Tilly was left swinging in the wind a bit by not hearing from Jacobus and having many extra duties put upon him such as scheduling visits and doing interviews and giving talks that had not been planned for.

There is a HUGE big picture here that, with few exceptions, everyone who has made conclusions about what was done and why and Tilly's motivations in doing so have both overlooked and do so without any real research into it.

That is one of the main reasons why I am doing this thread; to provide as much of those details in this small space as possible so that conclusions that more accurately reflect the reality and truth of what they did can be better drawn.

Keep an open mind is all I ask...

After some of the remarks you made above it sure is hard and is why I will refrain from posting any more on this topic!

« Last Edit: August 25, 2009, 07:50:10 AM by Chris_Blakely »

Phil_the_Author

Re: Tillinghast's PGA Course Consultation Tour... Come for the ride...
« Reply #65 on: August 25, 2009, 08:51:03 AM »
Chris,

Thanks for the replies.

Bill Brightly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Tillinghast's PGA Course Consultation Tour... Come for the ride...
« Reply #66 on: August 25, 2009, 09:16:13 AM »
Phil,

In all of your research on Tillinghast, were you able to come up with any information on what kind of relationship he had with Macdonald? Were they friends? Did they each acknowledge the other's good work or were they bitter rivals?  They certainly competed for the same new course construction projects, so I wonder what Tilly thought of Macdonald and Raynor's use of templates.

TEPaul

Re: Tillinghast's PGA Course Consultation Tour... Come for the ride...
« Reply #67 on: August 25, 2009, 09:29:16 AM »
BillB:

Great question. Have you ever read that 1939 article Tillinghast wrote that served as something of his eulogy to Macdonald? In it he gets into some of the answers to your question.  ;)

To me frankly the more interesting question is what Macdonald thought about what was going on in golf and perhaps in golf course architecture from about 1920 on. On that one I do have a very interesting remark from Macdonald that is contained in a letter from C. Piper to A. Wilson.

Actually, I was considering starting a thread on here possibly entitled "Notable Dropouts?!" I think Macdonald just may have been the most notable dropout of them all. Of course the accurate and factual reasons why are bound to be both fascinating and edifying!   :-\
« Last Edit: August 25, 2009, 09:32:41 AM by TEPaul »

Phil_the_Author

Re: Tillinghast's PGA Course Consultation Tour... Come for the ride...
« Reply #68 on: August 25, 2009, 09:30:03 AM »
Bill,

Tilly & CBM were good friends but very much rivals as architects. In addition Tilly had a fundamental difference with him in course design philosophy that they good-naturedly argued about throughout their lives.

When CBM died, Tilly wrote the following in the May, 1939, issue of Pacific Coast Golfer. I think it speaks volumes to Tilly's respect for CBM and the different aspects of their relationship as friends and architects:

"I have known Charley Macdonald since the earliest days of golf in this country and for many years we have been rival architects, and I really mean rivals for in many instances we widely disagreed and our manner of designing courses never reconciled. I stubbornly insisted on following natural suggestions of terrain, creating new types of holes suggested by Nature, even when resorting to artificial methods of construction. Charley, equally convinced that working strictly to models was best, turned out some famous courses. Throughout the years we argued good-naturedly about this and that, always at variance it would seem. Now he is gone and I can only salute his memory..."

TEPaul

Re: Tillinghast's PGA Course Consultation Tour... Come for the ride...
« Reply #69 on: August 25, 2009, 09:39:34 AM »
Phil:

Thanks for that Tilly (eulogy) quote. That is the one I had in mind. What Tilly said there a book on the evolution, philosophies and nuances of American architecture could probably be written on. It could also be a really, really good thread on this website but alas I doubt it will happen on here as there are a few who seem to think that discussing it really honestly is or will be in some ways denigrating or disrespectful of some of their "off limits" icons, idols and legends! Because of that such a thread would probably just devolve into senseless word parsing or personal attacks.

Bill Brightly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Tillinghast's PGA Course Consultation Tour... Come for the ride...
« Reply #70 on: August 25, 2009, 09:44:34 AM »
Tom and Phil,

I have not read either article but I sure would like to. I will look for the '39 article in the Tillinghast website.

While Macdonald may have "dropped out" his protege's, Raynor and then Banks, certainly carried on and competed with Tillinghast for work.

I did not check the list carefully, did Tilly's PGA tour include any MacRaynor courses? I saw Fox Chapel on the list, I wonder what he suggested there?

I know that Tilly visited Hackensack (Banks) and made a list of recomendations but I cannot determine what changes, if any, were made as a result. But it just fascinates me to think what Tilly would have thought and done "if he got his hands on a MacRaynor." :)
« Last Edit: August 25, 2009, 09:56:39 AM by Bill Brightly »

TEPaul

Re: Tillinghast's PGA Course Consultation Tour... Come for the ride...
« Reply #71 on: August 25, 2009, 10:00:17 AM »
"But it just fascinates me to think what Tilly would have thought and done "if he got his hands on a MacRaynor."  :)"


BillB:

I don't know if Tillinghast got his hands on a MacRaynor course and if he did what he proposed doing with it but I do know that William Flynn got his hands on a MacRaynor course in 1926-28.

What did Macdonald do or say about that?

Well----it may not be a coincidence that Macdonald resigned from the club (they would later make him an honorary member) giving the reason that he wanted to go to Bermuda for an extended time to write his biography which some of us know as "Scotland's Gift Golf." ;)

On the other hand, let's not forget that Tillinghast did one of the best redans in existence at Somerset Hills. However, even with that Tilly did put an architectural/conceptual wrinkle (or two or three) into that redan that I have never seen in another one.
« Last Edit: August 25, 2009, 10:07:50 AM by TEPaul »

Bill Brightly

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Re: Tillinghast's PGA Course Consultation Tour... Come for the ride...
« Reply #72 on: August 25, 2009, 10:18:45 AM »
It is a great hole but did Tillinghast ever acknowledge that he built a Redan at Somerset Hills? Or is that just what we like to call it today?

My pure guess is that Tilly would say that he just built a hole that was there naturally, and the "redan-like" features are a coincidence.

TEPaul

Re: Tillinghast's PGA Course Consultation Tour... Come for the ride...
« Reply #73 on: August 25, 2009, 06:43:16 PM »
"It is a great hole but did Tillinghast ever acknowledge that he built a Redan at Somerset Hills?"

He did indeed. He called it a redan and he mentioned the prototype---North Berwick's 15th. He framed his remarks in the context of the best line to the hole is not always at the flag and he used the redan as a good example of that. 

Bill Brightly

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Re: Tillinghast's PGA Course Consultation Tour... Come for the ride...
« Reply #74 on: August 25, 2009, 08:56:18 PM »
Thanks for that info, Tom, incredibly interesting! Here you have two great architects, rivals yet friends, arguing over which approach is better. Macdonald, no doubt, told Tillinghast that building "classic" holes was the best way to create great courses, and Tilly arguing, "no, the land must dictate." Yet Tilly builds a Redan anyway.

I LOVE Redans and feel that they represent a disproptionate share of the best one-shot holes in the world. Of course it is a template, but the sites are naturally occurring, and not forced upon the land.

So here you haveTillinghast, a naturalist, philosophically opposed to model holes, acknowledging the greatness of the Redan by building one himself. I find that to be very cool.

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