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DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Caption Contest - Not to miss!!!
« Reply #75 on: August 13, 2009, 08:33:09 PM »

Dave,

I find it interesting that of the 6 waterfalls that are found on holes 11 and 13, there is only one you keep referring to time and time again, especially in light of the fact that the other 5 originate on top of the ridgline where its feasible that a pond or small creek could exist naturally to feed it.  So yes its true of all the 6, there is that one that obviously could not exist there naturally...but does that mean we ignore the other 5?

How many bad phony waterfalls must there be before it detracts from the course?

Regardless, I didn't mean to exclude the other waterfalls from criticism and don't think I did.    In fact, I wrote: "Likewise, many of the other water features on the course flow out of places that are higher than their immediate surrounds, with no apparent concern for where the water might actually flow." I also wrote, in another post, "Likewise, the other waterfalls seem to be placed with a concern for dramatic impact and not for where water might actually flow."  I also questioned the decision to add any phony waterfalls given the natural beauty of the setting. 

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If we want to talk about phony things on the golf course though, its odd how you easily overlook everything else that exists artifically, like the mowed grass, the cart paths, the flattened tees, the flagstick, the bunkers, etc, etc....yet only focus on the waterfalls of which 5 of 6 could just as easily be more naturally occuring than everything esle...the irony is indeed thick here.

I could do without some of this stuff, especially cart paths and the carts as well, but some of this is integral to the game, like mowed grass.  I don't think phony waterfalls are integral to golf.   But I am not against all artificiality.   Just stuff that looks phony, detracts from the beauty and aesthetic of the place, defies the laws of nature, is unnecessary and excessive, etc. 
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But then again, once again, this isn't about waterfalls is it?  This is about having an axe to grind with one persons architecture style and completly ignoring the fact that Jim Enghs courses:

1)  Are Fun to play
2)  Have cool greens that are devilishily contoured and a blast to putt on.
3)  Most of his holes are very strategic and require real thought processes in club selection.
4)  They give the golfer lots of oohhs and ahhhs thru views and other visual delights along the way.

Didn't you just ask for a reasonable discussion in your previous post?   Yet now you are accusing me of having an ax to grind against Jim Engh?  While I've never met him, I've nothing against Jim Engh.  But Black Rock is bad, and its popularity is bad for golf.

And it is about much more than the six phony waterfalls.  I disagree with all of your "facts" and would be glad to discuss it if you want to try a reasonable discussion.

As for your waterfall picture, notice how there is a place from which water could actually drain?  Namely the large drainage that we can make out above the waterfall.   That doesn't exist above the waterfalls at Black Rock.   There is no place from which the water could have naturally come.  It gushes out the top of a rock wall, as if a pipe was broken in numerous places.  What are we supposed to think is above those waterfalls?  A pond overflowing in a number places simultaneously, even though they are not level with each other?   Four separate streams none of which has anything like a natural origin?  And the water just disappears!  Behind a big green mound.   
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Caption Contest - Not to miss!!!
« Reply #76 on: August 13, 2009, 08:55:05 PM »
...
P.S.  And if you can explain how the water coming down the face of the rocks "defies gravity", then I would really love to hear that one. 


That's an easy one. Gravity will cause erosion generally to create a single channel. Streams branch together as they flow down, they don't branch out!


Garland,

You really do need to get out more and smell the proverbial roses.  You ever hear of plitvice lakes national park?  I guess Jim Engh has been busy elsewhere than just on the golf course???

So much for that theory Mr. Geologist...stick to the computer stuff!!   ;D








Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Caption Contest - Not to miss!!!
« Reply #77 on: August 13, 2009, 09:00:29 PM »
And I suppose you and David have never been to Dry Falls either.....only a couple hours away from Black Rock.

Well consider this apart of your education...

http://www.gonorthwest.com/washington/northeast/Dry_Falls.htm

It was the largest waterfall in the world during the last ice age, made Niagra look like a trickle.  Hmmm....those jagged cliff edges look so familiar to something else I just recently saw...but I just can't seem to put a finger on it.   ;D  And yet you and Mr. Rockford Bay seem to have no friggin clue how those cliff edges at BR were made in the 1st place.





« Last Edit: August 13, 2009, 09:15:41 PM by Kalen Braley »

David_Elvins

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Caption Contest - Not to miss!!!
« Reply #78 on: August 13, 2009, 09:10:10 PM »


Too much eye candy.  Aesthetics far outway function.  Standard Fazio fair. A Doak 5 but likely to have more populist appeal.



[/quote]Excellent width.  Multiple opions,  good natural undualtions encourages the ground game unlike too many waterfalls that have one dimendional aerial elements.  Obviously from the Golden Age of Waterfalls.  Doak 10.


Massie earth movign to create, No longer in existence.  The Lido of waterfalls.
Ask not what GolfClubAtlas can do for you; ask what you can do for GolfClubAtlas.

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Caption Contest - Not to miss!!!
« Reply #79 on: August 13, 2009, 09:13:29 PM »
Looks like a beautiful place.  Do you consider the Balkans to be part of the Pacific Northwest?   Do you find it odd that Mr. Engh would have to go all the way to Croatia for inspiration?  

Seriously, as I said in my last post one can see falls like this from a lake or pond (which is the case in your photos) but this couldn't be the case here because the lower ground immediately to the right.  Plus there is the fence going across the ridge right where the waterfalls supposedly originate.  ::)
_____________________

As for Dry Falls, are you joking?     Water didn't trickle over the rock walls.   There was essentially a wall of water hundreds of feet deep and traveling at over 60 miles per hour.   One account noted that there was more water flow in these ice aged floods than in all the rivers in the world.

Surely you don't think this was the model for Black Rock, do you?  
« Last Edit: August 13, 2009, 09:21:06 PM by DMoriarty »
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Caption Contest - Not to miss!!!
« Reply #80 on: August 13, 2009, 09:22:29 PM »
Looks like a beautiful place.  Do you consider the Balkans to be part of the Pacific Northwest?   Do you find it odd that Mr. Engh would have to go all the way to Croatia for inspiration? 

Seriously, as I said in my last post one can see falls like this from a lake or pond (which is the case in your photos) but this couldn't be the case here because the lower ground immediately to the right.  Plus there is the fence going across the ridge right where the waterfalls supposedly originate.  ::)
_____________________

As for Dry Falls, are you joking?     Water didn't trickle over the rock walls.   There was essentially a wall of water hundreds of feet deep and traveling at over 60 miles per hour.   One account noted that there was more water flow in these ice aged flood than in all the rivers in the world.

Surely you don't think this was the model for Black Rock, do you? 

David,

The part I find funny is that Jim Engh would get skewered and slagged for using water on a feature which was was the primary erosive force that created that feature in the 1st place.

If thats not the definition of irony, I'm not sure what is.

P.S.  If we want to have real discussion about features that don't belong on a golf course, then lets talk bunkers which don't occur naturally on roughly 99% of the worlds courses. I don't see you complaining about those!  ;)  ;D

P.P.S My previous post was only to show Garlands Bird-Brained theory about waterfalls forming in channels was utter nonsense.

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Caption Contest - Not to miss!!!
« Reply #81 on: August 13, 2009, 09:54:17 PM »
David,

The part I find funny is that Jim Engh would get skewered and slagged for using water on a feature which was was the primary erosive force that created that feature in the 1st place.

If thats not the definition of irony, I'm not sure what is.

Let me get this straight.  You think that if water was at some point involved in creating a natural feature, then the architect should be beyond criticism for turning an otherwise interesting dry feature into a phony looking water feature?   Even though the natural feature may have been created Eras ago? By a glacier?  Tom Doak should have phony waterfalls all over Rock Creek!

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P.S.  If we want to have real discussion about features that don't belong on a golf course, then lets talk bunkers which don't occur naturally on roughly 99% of the worlds courses. I don't see you complaining about those!  ;)  ;D

Again,  a phony waterfall is not an integral feature on a golf course.  Especially when it is only there for aesthetic purposes, and is carefully separated from the actual course by a big grass berm.    As for bunkers, they are overused and very often not built in a style that has anything to do with the place.  But whether I like it or not they have become an integral part of golf.   

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P.P.S My previous post was only to show Garlands Bird-Brained theory about waterfalls forming in channels was utter nonsense.

I am with Garland on this one.  Unless there is lake or a pond up there, the waterfalls make no sense.    And all there is up there (or will be) is housing. 

But again, the waterfalls are just one of many problems at Blackrock. 

[/quote]
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Kyle Henderson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Caption Contest - Not to miss!!!
« Reply #82 on: August 14, 2009, 01:27:17 AM »

Let me get this straight.  You think that if water was at some point involved in creating a natural feature, then the architect should be beyond criticism for turning an otherwise interesting dry feature into a phony looking water feature?   Even though the natural feature may have been created Eras ago? By a glacier?  Tom Doak should have phony waterfalls all over Rock Creek!


I vote for artificial glaciers along the periphery.
"I always knew terrorists hated us for our freedom. Now they love us for our bondage." -- Stephen T. Colbert discusses the popularity of '50 Shades of Grey' at Gitmo

Patrick Kiser

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Caption Contest - Not to miss!!!
« Reply #83 on: August 14, 2009, 11:14:12 AM »
"I said a 1/2 inch wrench please!"
“One natural hazard, however, which is more
or less of a nuisance, is water. Water hazards
absolutely prohibit the recovery shot, perhaps
the best shot in the game.” —William Flynn, golf
course architect

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Caption Contest - Not to miss!!!
« Reply #84 on: August 14, 2009, 11:34:16 AM »
Well Kalen, I recon we will just have to make Black Rock into a national park for its unique and inspiring water features there.

"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Melvyn Morrow

Re: Caption Contest - Not to miss!!!
« Reply #85 on: August 14, 2009, 11:50:59 AM »

Certain one of my balls rolled down here somewhere.

Found it yet, Kalen? Think its on top of the Tee, yes the Tee the Big White Tee. You can lead a horse to water but you can't…. Americans tut, tut. ;)
A true Scotsman never gives up his ball to a water hazard, no matter how daunting, need the old freeze and separate routine, works every time – thanks Birdseye for the idea.

Melvyn


Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Caption Contest - Not to miss!!!
« Reply #86 on: August 14, 2009, 11:59:22 AM »
"I said a 1/2 inch wrench please!"

Good one Patrick!

Thanks for trying to get the thread back on track.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Caption Contest - Not to miss!!!
« Reply #87 on: August 14, 2009, 12:02:38 PM »
Don't let the hamsters out, or we'll never get this thing back to the clubhouse.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Caption Contest - Not to miss!!!
« Reply #88 on: August 14, 2009, 01:16:40 PM »
Kalen's friends from Vegas must have messed with the steering linkage after his loss at Wine Valley.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Brad Wilbur

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Caption Contest - Not to miss!!!
« Reply #89 on: August 14, 2009, 01:22:24 PM »
"I'm not leaving until I find my "Cheater Line" marker."

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