[Garland Bayley]

I know we are near Butte, but you are NOT the reincarnation of Evil Knievel.

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

where the bloody hell is that cell phone

left of number 7 at Kingsley?

[Garland Bayley]

Sorry Andy, Since you like ponds so much I was distracted seeing if I could find one for you.

[Garland Bayley]

Sorry Andy, Since you like ponds so much I was distracted seeing if I could find one for you.

Or maybe since Andy says how much he likes Black Rock, perhaps Jim was trying to find a water fall for him.

[Joe Bausch]

From MC:

"Driving while twittering updates to the Merion thread is rarely a good idea."

"Overcome with hilarity at reading David's account of his run-up shot on Merion's "redan", Cirba lost all control."

[Garland Bayley]

Thank you MC!

[Kalen Braley]

For the record,

It was indeed on the cart path which is left of the 14th hole at RCCC.

If we're keeping tallies, I think I like the Dos Equis quote the best too!!   

[Andy Troeger]

Garland,
I'll take a waterfall over a pond any day 

I actually am not that big of a fan of ponds so I'm not sure where the occasional references to them is from. I do keep an open mind about them--they can most certainly be used well. I think the original comment was more about you disliking them.

And having played a fair amount of courses with waterfalls--some of them are tastefully done and are pretty cool while others are so over the top to be rather ridiculous. I think the ones at Black Rock fall into the cool category--they look better in person cascading down the hill than they probably do in photos.

[DMoriarty]

I especially like the one on the right, which seems to spring out of the top of a pinnacle of rock surrounded by much lower ground.   Why should the laws of gravity or nature play any role in golf architecture?

[Kalen Braley]

David,

Have you ever lived in the Pacific Northwest?  If so you would know that these kinds of rock out-croppings are everywhere in Eastern WA/ Northern Idaho due to the ancient glacial floods.  Those rocks are not out of place 1 bit, because they existed long before the course was there.  Sure they aren't natural falls for most of the year but in the spring during run off they could/would be.

[DMoriarty]

David,

Have you ever lived in the Pacific Northwest?  If so you would know that these kinds of rock out-croppings are everywhere in Eastern WA/ Northern Idaho due to the ancient glacial floods.  Those rocks are not out of place 1 bit, because they existed long before the course was there.  Sure they aren't natural falls for most of the year but in the spring during run off they could/would be.

Not sure what you would consider Pacific Northwest, but let's just say I am familiar with the general area.

I didn't say the rocks were phony, although the entire setup seems so phony that even the real rocks look phony-- I half expected Lee Majors to come running over the hill with Bigfoot hot on his trail!  I wanted to hit the rock just to see if it was actually real or if my ball would go right through it. 

The waterfall on the right starts on top of a rock that is a pinnacle, higher than all of the ground around it.  Unless fed by a very strange spring, the water could never get to the top of the rock to flow down.  It is called gravity and it applies even in Nothern Idaho.      Likewise, many of the other water features on the course flow out of places that are higher than their immediate surrounds, with no apparent concern for where the water might actually flow.    In short, real rocks or not, I've seen better waterfalls behind centerfield fence at Anaheim stadium. 

[Garland Bayley]

David,

Have you ever lived in the Pacific Northwest?  If so you would know that these kinds of rock out-croppings are everywhere in Eastern WA/ Northern Idaho due to the ancient glacial floods.  Those rocks are not out of place 1 bit, because they existed long before the course was there.  Sure they aren't natural falls for most of the year but in the spring during run off they could/would be.

Kalen,

David is a Montanan like me. Those water falls are so phony looking as to be laughable! Streams don't run down rock grades! They either seek lowpoints or make them through erosion.

[Kalen Braley]

David,

Have you ever lived in the Pacific Northwest?  If so you would know that these kinds of rock out-croppings are everywhere in Eastern WA/ Northern Idaho due to the ancient glacial floods.  Those rocks are not out of place 1 bit, because they existed long before the course was there.  Sure they aren't natural falls for most of the year but in the spring during run off they could/would be.

Not sure what you would consider Pacific Northwest, but let's just say I am familiar with the general area.

I didn't say the rocks were phony, although the entire setup seems so phony that even the real rocks look phony-- I half expected Lee Majors to come running over the hill with Bigfoot hot on his trail!  I wanted to hit the rock just to see if it was actually real or if my ball would go right through it. 

The waterfall on the right starts on top of a rock that is a pinnacle, higher than all of the ground around it.  Unless fed by a very strange spring, the water could never get to the top of the rock to flow down.  It is called gravity and it applies even in Nothern Idaho.      Likewise, many of the other water features on the course flow out of places that are higher than their immediate surrounds, with no apparent concern for where the water might actually flow.    In short, real rocks or not, I've seen better waterfalls behind centerfield fence at Anaheim stadium. 

Dave

1)  I specified which area....Eastern WA and Northern ID.
2)  Yeah I guess you would also expect to see Mermaids at CPC,  the Swamp Thing at TPC Sawgrass, and Yetis at RCCC too right?
3)  As for Anaheim Stadium and your preference for those waterfalls, well more power to you...I guess I shouldn't expect anything less from a SoCal boy who loves everything in life to be fake.

However, if your interested in having a real and rational conversation about this, then by all means let me know.

[Garland Bayley]

David,

Have you ever lived in the Pacific Northwest?  If so you would know that these kinds of rock out-croppings are everywhere in Eastern WA/ Northern Idaho due to the ancient glacial floods.  Those rocks are not out of place 1 bit, because they existed long before the course was there.  Sure they aren't natural falls for most of the year but in the spring during run off they could/would be.

Not sure what you would consider Pacific Northwest, but let's just say I am familiar with the general area.

I didn't say the rocks were phony, although the entire setup seems so phony that even the real rocks look phony-- I half expected Lee Majors to come running over the hill with Bigfoot hot on his trail!  I wanted to hit the rock just to see if it was actually real or if my ball would go right through it. 

The waterfall on the right starts on top of a rock that is a pinnacle, higher than all of the ground around it.  Unless fed by a very strange spring, the water could never get to the top of the rock to flow down.  It is called gravity and it applies even in Nothern Idaho.      Likewise, many of the other water features on the course flow out of places that are higher than their immediate surrounds, with no apparent concern for where the water might actually flow.    In short, real rocks or not, I've seen better waterfalls behind centerfield fence at Anaheim stadium. 

I concur with your assessment of the visual impact of the waterfalls at Black Rock.
Gravity cannot be defied!

[DMoriarty]

Kalen,

I grew up in Montana, and while I now live in California I have lived in Western Montana and have worked, played, hunted, fished, hiked, etc. in the Northern Rockies my entire life.  Until recently my parents lived on Rockford Bay, across from Black Rock and the rest of Chesrown's development, they still live in the area and I visit them often.   If you draw some line at Lookout Pass, then be my guest, but I have some familiarity with that section of the Northern Rockies.

I am joking about Angel's stadium, but am serious about the waterfalls at Black Rock.  The waterfall on the right flows from the top of a rock, and all the ground surrounding it is lower than the source of the waterfall.  Likewise, the other waterfalls seem to be placed with a concern for dramatic impact and not for where water might actually flow.

And all this this misses the major point.  Why the hell do they need six or seven phony waterfalls when if one bothers to look to the right and over the inevitable berm lining the fairway, one sees the stunning Lake Coeuer d'Alene?  

[Kalen Braley]

Dave,

I find it interesting that of the 6 waterfalls that are found on holes 11 and 13, there is only one you keep referring to time and time again, especially in light of the fact that the other 5 originate on top of the ridgline where its feasible that a pond or small creek could exist naturally to feed it.  So yes its true of all the 6, there is that one that obviously could not exist there naturally...but does that mean we ignore the other 5?

If we want to talk about phony things on the golf course though, its odd how you easily overlook everything else that exists artifically, like the mowed grass, the cart paths, the flattened tees, the flagstick, the bunkers, etc, etc....yet only focus on the waterfalls of which 5 of 6 could just as easily be more naturally occuring than everything esle...the irony is indeed thick here.

But then again, once again, this isn't about waterfalls is it?  This is about having an axe to grind with one persons architecture style and completly ignoring the fact that Jim Enghs courses:

1)  Are Fun to play
2)  Have cool greens that are devilishily contoured and a blast to putt on.
3)  Most of his holes are very strategic and require real thought processes in club selection.
4)  They give the golfer lots of oohhs and ahhhs thru views and other visual delights along the way.

So yes its true, I would rather play a manufactured course like this day in and day out, over most of the other stuff out there that is less tame but also boring, lacks any strategy, and puts me to sleep.

[Garland Bayley]

Name one place else in the world where water falls exist that even are remotely similar to those originating on the ridge line.

[Kalen Braley]

Name one place else in the world where water falls exist that even are remotely similar to those originating on the ridge line.

Lol,

They are all over here in Utah and in the Spokane area...

This one is 20 minutes away from where I live.

[Garland Bayley]

Name one place else in the world where water falls exist that even are remotely similar to those originating on the ridge line.

Lol,

They are all over here in Utah and in the Spokane area...

This old curmudgeon needs pictures.

[Kalen Braley]

Name one place else in the world where water falls exist that even are remotely similar to those originating on the ridge line.

Lol,

They are all over here in Utah and in the Spokane area...

This old curmudgeon needs pictures.

Go look at my previous post, I put one in there.

[Garland Bayley]

Sorry, but your picture approximates the spreading of one or two of the four waterfalls. It does not defy gravity and erosion like the four waterfalls below.

[Kalen Braley]

Sorry, but your picture approximates the spreading of one or two of the four waterfalls. It does not defy gravity and erosion like the four waterfalls below.

Garland,

You can't be serious. 

You're going to blindly accept playing on a course with unnaturally green grass, that is mowed to boot.  And its not a problem that there are flag sticks and drainage basins and tee markers and yardage markers and sprinkler heads everywhere.  Then throw in hole signs, cart paths, garbage cans, benches and a hundred other things that are "out of place" with nature in its original enviroment.....

...And then you're going to quibble and get your panties in a wad because a few waterfalls like the ones at Black Rock don't look exactly right to you?

In the words of Shivas... GMAFB!!!  What a load of bull....come back to this argument when you have something real to bitch about.


P.S.  And if you can explain how the water coming down the face of the rocks "defies gravity", then I would really love to hear that one. 

[Garland Bayley]

Kalen,

Let's put it down to the low expectations of city folk, vs the higher expectations of country folk when it comes to evaluating nature.

[Andy Troeger]

Whether or not the waterfalls are or look natural--put me down in the camp that thinks they are cool features on this particular course.

Unfortunately I think for some they take away from the quality of some of the other holes. Neither 11 or 13 are the best hole on the golf course--I like #16, 10, 8, 3, and 14 at least as well. Those two are just the most photographed and perhaps unique and #11 especially is actually a fairly interesting hole in its own right.

[Garland Bayley]

...
P.S.  And if you can explain how the water coming down the face of the rocks "defies gravity", then I would really love to hear that one. 

That's an easy one. Gravity will cause erosion generally to create a single channel. Streams branch together as they flow down, they don't branch out!

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