first piece of the week from hazeltine

[Jay Flemma]

Talked to Rees, a few GCAers, and the players.  If you hate me, you'll love this piece as...well, I'll let you read it:)

http://www.cybergolf.com/golf_news/hazeltine_national_its_gonna_be_a_long_week_at_the_pga_championship

It's the first time I've ever used the phrase "ass-over-teakettle" in a piece.

[Eric Smith]

Better apricot than blackberry, that would stain.  (Though you were likely wearing Flemma trademark black.)

Totally unrelated, but when will we expect a Jay Flemma cameo on Phineas and Ferb?   I've been watching with my 6 yr old daughter for like a year, she loves it btw, and just noticed who sings the opening song!  You guys still running around together?

Another nice piece Jay.  Have a great week up there.

[Jay Flemma]

huh?  phineus and ferb?? what? did BFS do the theme song and I not know it?

yes, i was in black:)

[Eric Smith]

Yep, BFS rocks out the opening theme song ... http://tv.disney.go.com/disneychannel/phineasandferb/musicplayer/index.html

[Jay Flemma]

we also did jimmy neutron...and thyey have a new video...google new BFS video and have a good laugh

[Jason Topp]

Jay

I am not much of a fan of Hazeltine but I am definitely not a fan of these pieces.  It is pretty clear you saw what you wanted to see on the course, because some of your opinions are way off base - particularly in light of you holding out Southern Hills as a much better venue:

1.  The fairways at Hazeltine are wide, particularly compared to other major tournament courses (I am sure they are wider than Southern Hills). 

2.  You cannot seriously contend that Hazeltine is a tree choked course after seeing it in person.  The pictures in your preview article are a par 3 (13), a misleading angle of a par five in which trees only come into play if the player hits an agressive layup (3) and a terrific hole (10).  The only holes that could even possibly be considered tightly treed are the 6th, which is in my opinion the best hole on the course, 12 which has no trees until the 2nd shot (and then is tightly treed)  and 14, which you acknowledge is appropriately tight given its short length.  I can hit the ball sideways but rarely think of trees as a significant hazard on the course.  (trees are far less in play than Southern Hills)

3.      You claim an abundence of severe dog legs.  I would guess that there are fewer doglegs than at Southern Hills

4.    You claim that the USGA did not want the US Open at Hazeltine.  I would be surprised if that were the case given the presence of Reed Mackenzie on the Executive Committee and the support in the area.  I do recall that the club considered it worth it to give up the US Open in favor of two PGAs and a Ryder Cup.  Wouldn't you?

5.  I would be interested in the opinions of others on whether the greens are flat.  In my experience they are very challenging but I do not play major championship golf and this opinion might be valid.

6.  My guess will be that length will be a relatively minor defense for the course.  3 of the 4 par 5s are not reachable absent a big tail wind and much of the other length is hidden in par threes.  For that reason, Hazeltine seems to play much shorter than the listed yardage unless there is a lot of wind.

Link to Southern Hills Aerial:

http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ie=UTF8&q=Southern+Hills+Country+Club&fb=1&cid=0,0,5451616975063633757&near=Tulsa,+OK&ei=FhuDSpfMFYrwMfTD9aEL&t=h&ll=36.073227,-95.950427&spn=0.007701,0.021887&z=16&iwloc=A

Link to Hazeltine Aerial

http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=chaska,+mn&sll=44.493216,-86.231976&sspn=0.108737,0.22007&ie=UTF8&t=h&ll=44.832774,-93.584955&spn=0.006756,0.013754&z=16&iwloc=A



I am particularly disappointed because I pointed out many of these issues to you months ago and asked you to write based on actual experience rather than preconceived notions.  http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,40357.0/  Clearly that did not happen.

[Jay Flemma]

Jason, after further review, the play stands as called.  You;re being a homer for the course.  HazNat is a penal, tree-choked, not very pretty, AVERAGE golf course.  That's my story and I'm sticking to it.  I walked the course forward and backward 1-18, then 18-1.  This is my 11th major as a sports writer and i have seen a few other major venues as well.  The only one I've seen that it beats is Medinah.

Your problem simply is that I don't think highly of a course you like, but don't suggest I haven't done my homework or haven't analyzed it properly because the general consensus of the players, is that this course is not Oakmont, WFW, or Oakland Hills.  Even some archies i talked to - and I'm not dropping names - agree.  HazNat does not stack up to the great classic courses and was chosen because it is HUGE and everything fits well on site and it's easy to run a big tournament here.  The Minnesotans are great, and its convenient for everyone in the US to get to.  Southern hills has a lot of dog legs too, but it has much better greens and surrounds and a better routing.  hazNat summarizes many of the mistakes of the doldrums period of architecture.

I guess we are left with the old agree to disagree.  i admire your loyalty to the course, but there are not many poeple who rank it above OHCC, WFW Shiunny, and the rest of the major rota.  I'll read your minority report with great interest, but after being here and walking it twice and watching the pros play it, I think I can compare and contrast the major venues I've seen well.

That was NOT 13 that was 4, and the pics of the trees on 3 and 6 are not misleading...if you stray form the fwy, there are stands of trees...from the PGA announcement just today - we have oaks and maples and firs and ash.  It's not a prison like medinah where rees admitted to me he had to remove hundreds of trees because the courses was tree choked, but it's not Oakmont or OHCC either.

Look, all I'm saying is that the Minnesota Vikings are not the Pittsburgh Steelers.

So take solace...not only did I fall on my keister, but I may have broken my wrist as well.  i have an ice pack on my whole right hand.  

Here's an idea...let's all take a page form Bill hyde's book and be positive and talk about the holes at HAzNat we DO like:

I like 1,5,9, 10.  One is a great opener...downhill, gentle bend left, hit a big draw and then fly one to the green majestically.  5 has a great uphill second and plays around a bunkered hill.  I love coming up the hill on 9 to that plateau green and what else needs to be said about 10...  Your faves?

[Anthony Gray]

  Jay,

  Thanks for your contributions. All four majors....well done.

   Anthony

[Jason Topp]

Jason, after further review, the play stands as called.  You;re being a homer for the course.  HazNat is a penal, tree-choked, not very pretty, AVERAGE golf course.  That's my story and I'm sticking to it.  I walked the course forward and backward 1-18, then 18-1.  This is my 11th major as a sports writer and i have seen a few other major venues as well.  The only one I've seen that it beats is Medinah.

Jay - you misunderstand the intent behind my posts.  I am not a fan of Hazeltine.  I consider it a pretty average course.  I have communicated that view in every post I have written.

My problem is that I cannot imagine you could reach the specific criticisms you raise.  Do you really think Southern Hills has fewer trees in play, fewer doglegs and wider fairways?  Those are some of your specific criticisms you raised.  Do you really know whether the USGA decided not to hold future US Opens at Hazeltine?  That is what you wrote.  You indicated yourself that the photos from the trees do not depict the holes in any meaningful fashion in the prior thread.  Now you say they accurately depict them.

These are all facts with very little room for opinion.

As to holes I like - 3, 6, 7, 8, 10,

Spend some time watching guys play 6.  You will see a variety of approaches to playing the hole and appreciate it more.

[Jay Flemma]

Jason, after further review, the play stands as called.  You;re being a homer for the course.  HazNat is a penal, tree-choked, not very pretty, AVERAGE golf course.  That's my story and I'm sticking to it.  I walked the course forward and backward 1-18, then 18-1.  This is my 11th major as a sports writer and i have seen a few other major venues as well.  The only one I've seen that it beats is Medinah.

Jay - you misunderstand the intent behind my posts.  I am not a fan of Hazeltine.  I consider it a pretty average course.  I have communicated that view in every post I have written.

My problem is that I cannot imagine you could reach the specific criticisms you raise.  Do you really think Southern Hills has fewer trees in play, fewer doglegs and wider fairways?  Those are some of your specific criticisms you raised.  Do you really know whether the USGA decided not to hold future US Opens at Hazeltine?  That is what you wrote.  You indicated yourself that the photos from the trees do not depict the holes in any meaningful fashion in the prior thread.  Now you say they accurately depict them.

These are all facts with very little room for opinion.

As to holes I like - 3, 6, 7, 8, 10,

Spend some time watching guys play 6.  You will see a variety of approaches to playing the hole and appreciate it more.

1.  Southern hills is considerably better than HazNat.  They are not in the same league in  my book.

2.  Yes, I do know the USGA has punted HazNat to the PGA.

3.  I never said the pics dont depict the course in a meaningful way.  You are r4eading too much into this.

4.  I hate 6.  God awful hole.  Too penal, too dictatorial.  I like 5 much more.

[Jason Topp]

Jay: 

My last post is probably a bit too attack dog in nature.  I apologize.  Please take a look at the video below.

I like Phil's take on Hazeltine's 3's and 5's and see it as pretty accurate even though it is far from glowing (particularly in light of the setting).  He is clearly down on the changes to 7, dislikes 3 and thinks 11 and 15 are mediocre.  He really likes 8 and 13 and is pretty neutral on 4 and 17.

In particular I find his view that you should make the hard holes more difficult and keep the birdie holes as birdie holes as an interesting take that deserves some discussion at some point. 

http://www.startribune.com/video/53076417.html

[Jay Flemma]

Jay: 

My last post is probably a bit too attack dog in nature.  I apologize.  Please take a look at the video below.

I like Phil's take on Hazeltine's 3's and 5's and see it as pretty accurate even though it is far from glowing (particularly in light of the setting).  He is clearly down on the changes to 7, dislikes 3 and thinks 11 and 15 are mediocre.  He really likes 8 and 13 and is pretty neutral on 4 and 17.

In particular I find his view that you should make the hard holes more difficult and keep the birdie holes as birdie holes as an interesting take that deserves some discussion at some point. 

http://www.startribune.com/video/53076417.html

No apology necessary, but thank you anyway.  Here, have a shot on me:  \_/

I actually asked Phil the Q about will a longer hitter have an advantage.  I also asked Tiger a Q yesterday too...  Paging Melvyn...

[rjsimper]

1.  Southern hills is considerably better than HazNat.  They are not in the same league in  my book.

Not to interject where unwarranted, but I don't think Jason Topp is discussing the quality of Southern Hills versus Hazeltine, rather taking issue with your specific critiques in the areas of tree quantity and dogleg frequency. If you don't make the same negative marks against Southern Hills that you're making against Hazeltine, then why?

[Jason Topp]

"4.  I hate 6.  God awful hole.  Too penal, too dictatorial.  I like 5 much more."

Sorry - I cannot let this one pass.  What is your definition of "penal and dictatorial?" 

To me, those terms mean that there is one way to play the hole.  6 is precisely the opposite type of hole. On 6 you will see tee shots with drivers that finish right in front of the green and will see irons to the corner.  You will see approaches to the middle of the green and others fired at the pin which will be back left a couple of days.  You probably will also see a couple of punch recovery shots that use the slope of the green to get at a back left pin.

There is a reason 6 is the only hole that has never really been altered.

[PThomas]

an "average" course??  to each his own (opinion), but i wish i could be a member of such an average course!

[Gary Slatter]

Fine reporting Jay. Please keep it up!  It "topps" everything else I've read and agrees with most everything I've heard about HN.

[Jay Flemma]

1.  Southern hills is considerably better than HazNat.  They are not in the same league in  my book.

Not to interject where unwarranted, but I don't think Jason Topp is discussing the quality of Southern Hills versus Hazeltine, rather taking issue with your specific critiques in the areas of tree quantity and dogleg frequency. If you don't make the same negative marks against Southern Hills that you're making against Hazeltine, then why?

A better routing, and better greens...by a long shot.

Jason, I hated six both days I walked it.  It's too penal.  Punch shots to that green?  I don't see that at all.  plus I think the approach is too similar to 7.  Then you get water on the other side at 8.

Here's pix of 6 & 7:

6 -




I think it would be suicide to try a punch recovery to that green...

7

it's the same green!  lather rinse repeat.



Paul is right, to each his own, and Jase, I respect your opinion.  Gary, thanks for the props.

Guys, I'll be comparing and contrasting this course to Minikahda, WBYC, Giants Ridge and the Wilderness as I play all those in a few days time.  Let's all reconvene and compare notes then as well.

[Jason Topp]

.  It's too penal.  

Jay - I will ask you agan - what is your definition of penal? I do not think it coincides with mine.

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

My guess would be that should you take a poll of playersf Southern Hills versus Hazeltine,
you would get an overwhelming preference for Southern Hills.

To me it is a more interesting course to play, a better variety of holes, more interesting green complexes and simply just better architecure.
I am not convinced that each"change' to Hazeltine has done anything to improve what truly is an average major championship golf course.
A good test of golf for certain and as such serves it's purpose as a major venue, but as a feat of good architecture I feel it does not garner very high marks.

[Michael Moore]

Jay -

Your article claims that "No. 12 is a 520-yard par-4, 13 is a 247-yard par-3, and 15 is a 652-yard par-5. They are, respectively, the longest par-4, par-3 and par-5 in major championship history."

Didn't the 8th hole at Oakmont measure 288 yards for at least one round of the 2007 U.S. Open?

[Jay Flemma]

Jay -

Your article claims that "No. 12 is a 520-yard par-4, 13 is a 247-yard par-3, and 15 is a 652-yard par-5. They are, respectively, the longest par-4, par-3 and par-5 in major championship history."

Didn't the 8th hole at Oakmont measure 288 yards for at least one round of the 2007 U.S. Open?

Not major history...PGA Championship history.  I made sure i put that in there in the draft I sent in to the boys.  if that got changed, I'll call my editor and have him fix it...but its PGA history, but it is the longest course in major history.

[John_Conley]

I am not convinced that each"change' to Hazeltine has done anything to improve what truly is an average major championship golf course.

MWP, Jason Topp's defense of Hazeltine (which he doesn't love) in this difference of opinion with Flemma is identical to mine seven years ago with Jaka.

Hazeltine is a below average Major championship golf course.  I don't think anyone has ever argued otherwise.  It is, however, an outstanding Major championship venue, which is why it has held two US Opens, a US Senior, two US Womens Opens, two PGAs, the NCAA Championship, US Amateur, and is slated to have a future Ryder Cup.

[John_Conley]

Fine reporting Jay. Please keep it up!  It "topps" everything else I've read and agrees with most everything I've heard about HN.

Flemma had his story before he ever saw the grounds.  Yes, that's fine reporting...the newspaper industry loves that approach.  I don't understand it, but that's definitely the nature of the beast.

It does not sound like you've seen Hazeltine.  Jason's defense, like mine seven years ago, is simply to point out that the course is way better than people like you are led to believe.  It isn't at all flat, boasts one of the most photographed par 4s in the world, and is meaty enough to challenge tournament golfers.  Despite its length, it has not favored long hitters.

There are obvious knocks.  Too many holes dogleg left.  Two of the par 3s are pretty bland.  Each nine's finishers, while difficult, are side-by-side uphill snoozers for social play.  Despite these deficiencies it is better than well over half the PGA Tour courses.

Jay's comparisons of Hazeltine to White Bear Yacht, Minikahda, and Brauer's work in remote Northern Minnesota will be interesting.  (Not.)  Lemme guess, those courses are better?  It would be nearly impossible for any of them to host a Nationwide event, so we are hardly talking apples.

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

John,
I see your point..butwhat exactly does that mean a good major venue?
Great for revenue, absolutely.The people are starved for golf and attend as well as anywhere...does that make it a good venue?

Let us not pretend that the PGA is concerned with good architecture, I agree they are not they are interested in income, and as such Hazeltine fits the bill.
But for the players..well perhaps most of them dont care too much either....but for the golfing purist, it is a pity taht such a "bland: golf course is utilised to teat the best palyers in the world for one of their majors.

Again I think it is an adequate test, and will provide a worthy champion, just lacks something in my opinion to be classed asa good major championship golf course.

But I also agree that some of Jay's comments are a little harsh.
I played Hazeltine at the USGA State Team Championships and enjoyed playing it very much.
It is certainly not tree laden in my opinion, in fact that would not even enter my mind.
I actually thought the tree sitauation was one of its finer points....it has some great holes..especially those farthest from the cluhouse.
Number 12 is great, the par threes a good mix{althought the extra yardage spoils them}...but I think some of the par FIVES LET THE COURSE DOWN....They lack any real charchter...bunkers dictate all the strategy.
Numbers eleven andI think it is 15 I really was bored with.

The more I think about it the more I think I liked the course

[John_Conley]

MWP:

That's it exactly.  I don't love the course, Jason doesn't, and you don't.  It just seems that people that are overly critical of it are way off base.  6, 10, and 16 are awfully good par 4s.  8 and 17 are pretty cool par 3s.  1 is a nice starting hole.  3 is a good true three shot par 5. 

I'm not comparing it to Southern Hills, but rather the whole TPC network, Bay Hill, Cog Hill, Torrey Pines, Valhalla, and others.

Wanna play a great Golden Age course in the Twin Cities?  There are plenty.  Wanna play a Major Championship on one?  Not going to happen.