[Tom Huckaby]

Now that is a challenge.  Just as Sand Hills is my go-to for all things great, THE RANCH is such for all things bad.  And lo and behold, surprise surprise, it has a contender.

#6 - way to severe/penal 425 par 4 requiring 220+ carry over crap, with crap continuing on left, then fairway narrowing down to 10 yards wide in front of raised/uphill green, with putrid cart path bouncing a ball into more crap right, nothing but death left... oh, and a very overdone green.

#7 - defies description... 528 par 5 with at least 100 feet of drop from the tee, then a fairway narrowing down to less than 10 yards wide 100 yards short of the green... which is severely tiered, fronted by water, with another stupid cart path to the left next to a hill... after a good tee shot one either goes wedge-wedge, or tries to fit a 200_+ shot into that nightmare green.

#8 - par 3, card says 170 or something but such would defy the laws of physics as the tee backs up to the edge of a cliff, and the back of the tee is 145 max.  More crap right and long, otherwise somewhat boring.

Winner?  

[jkinney]

16-18 at Eagle Springsi  (Weiskopf / Morrish, Wolcott CO) are worth mentioning. With the par four 15th added in, it's one of the best last four I know of.

[Scott Szabo]

It's got to be 6-7-8 at Pebble, no?

I would put 16-18 at Sand Hills above that.  Which hopefully tells you just how great I think the final three holes at Sand Hills are.

But the holes at Pebble belong in this conversation for sure.

Hmmmm... CPC can offer 6-7-8 as well... interesting....

Tom,

How about 1-2-3 at Sand Hills, or 13-14-15.  How's that for 3 three-hole combos on the same course!

[Tom Huckaby]

It's got to be 6-7-8 at Pebble, no?

I would put 16-18 at Sand Hills above that.  Which hopefully tells you just how great I think the final three holes at Sand Hills are.

But the holes at Pebble belong in this conversation for sure.

Hmmmm... CPC can offer 6-7-8 as well... interesting....

Tom,

How about 1-2-3 at Sand Hills, or 13-14-15.  How's that for 3 three-hole combos on the same course!

Yes!  Each are great.. each arguably as great as 16-18.... well done.

 

[Jay Kirkpatrick]

3, 4, 5 at Seminole is pretty stout.  fairly easy dogleg right par 5 up the dune, brutal par 4 on top of the dune, and then a mid-length par 3 with a plateau green surrounded by beastly bunkers.

[Mark Pritchett]

Perhaps I missed a mention of  11-13 at Augusta National Golf club (of 12-14 for that matter).  It absolutely stomps everything else in my book. 

Bogey

I just read this thread and was amazed it took so long to be mentioned.  Good call Bogey!!!

[Jaeger Kovich]

I vote for Winged Foot West #8, 9, and 10

8 - par 4, very demanding tee shot, just an awesome long 2 shot hole that turns to the right, leading back to the club house.

9 - par 5, playing directly at the club house, one of the biggest greens on the entire course is defined by a small knob in the middle

10, par 3, simply an all world 1-shot hole


My #2... Carnoustie #16, 17, 18 - perhaps the most dramatic finishes in championship golf history have taken place on these holes

[David Kelly]

Perhaps I missed a mention of  11-13 at Augusta National Golf club (of 12-14 for that matter).  It absolutely stomps everything else in my book. 

Bogey

When you played it how did it compare to the expectations you had from seeing Amen Corner on TV all those years?

David,

I see you are channeling Matt Ward.  If that's your best retort, my proposition remains pretty dad-gummed valid.

Bogey

Am I missing something? What retort?

[Greg Clark]

I think certainly most of the very, very best have been mentioned.  I have always been fond of 11-13 at Blackwolf Run, River.

[Jason Topp]

As big of a fan as I am of Sand Hills (my favorite I have played), I think 17 is overrated.  It is a 150 yard shot to a small elevated green.  

Why is it so great?

[Ronald Montesano]

Tobacco Road...13, 14, 15

Blackwolf Run Meadow Valleys...14, 15, 16

Southern Pines...2, 3, 4 or 5, 6, 7...take your pick.

Crag Burn...12, 13, 14

Country Club of Buffalo...11, 12, 13

[David Kelly]

Plainfield CC - #10, #11, #12 with the holes going from very good to great.

[Gene Greco]

As big of a fan as I am of Sand Hills (my favorite I have played), I think 17 is overrated.  It is a 150 yard shot to a small elevated green.  

Why is it so great?

Jason:

        Have you ever played #17 at Sand Hills in the wind? 

Or more specifically:

1. Downwind with the pin cut behind the large front bunker? Did you aim at the pin? Did you plug in the side of that bunker leaving yourself unplayable because no one can stand at a 90 degree angle to the ground?  Or did you ever find your ball over the left rear bunker?
2. Into the wind with the pin placed front and center? Did you go for that, too? How far down off the green did your ball spin backl?
3. With a right to left crosswind were you able to negotiate that coffin bunker or did you leave it too far out and end up in the blowout from hell? Did you make your 5 or did you mark down an "X"?
4. A north wind (left to right cross) calls for a knockdown draw. Do you own one which is controllable? I played with a two time Senior British Amateur champ who was skilled enough to do so. I'm just not that good.

Of course, we're talking a man's wind here and not someone fanning your behind with a giant feather.

Did you play the hole on a windless early evening as the sun was setting behind you and the pin centered on the green? How much delight did you feel after puring your 9 iron and making 2?

Is the 17th at Sand Hills not placed PERFECTLY after facing some of the beasts prior to playing this one and the beast that follows, your possible birdie opportunity if you will?

Does it fit within the whole of the golf course and within the unsurpassed ebb and flow which is the Sand Hills Golf Club ? Indeed, it does.

Finally, I offer you the following for consideration (in my next post):

 

[Gene Greco]

.....

[Emil Weber]

12-13-14 Royal Dornoch is absolutely fantastic... Others are
3-4-5 Rustic Canyon
16-17-18 St Enodoc

[Peter Ferlicca]

Holes 6-8 at Stone Eagle

#6   One of the coolest looking par 4's that is around 360 yards

#7   A downhill 218 yard par 3 with a view from the tee that will take your breath away


#8   A great strategic par 5 that is only 501 yards, but plays A LOT harder than the distance

[Jason Topp]

As big of a fan as I am of Sand Hills (my favorite I have played), I think 17 is overrated.  It is a 150 yard shot to a small elevated green.  

Why is it so great?

Jason:

        Have you ever played #17 at Sand Hills in the wind?  

Or more specifically:

1. Downwind with the pin cut behind the large front bunker? Did you aim at the pin? Did you plug in the side of that bunker leaving yourself unplayable because no one can stand at a 90 degree angle to the ground?  Or did you ever find your ball over the left rear bunker?
2. Into the wind with the pin placed front and center? Did you go for that, too? How far down off the green did your ball spin backl?
3. With a right to left crosswind were you able to negotiate that coffin bunker or did you leave it too far out and end up in the blowout from hell? Did you make your 5 or did you mark down an "X"?
4. A north wind (left to right cross) calls for a knockdown draw. Do you own one which is controllable? I played with a two time Senior British Amateur champ who was skilled enough to do so. I'm just not that good.

Of course, we're talking a man's wind here and not someone fanning your behind with a giant feather.

Did you play the hole on a windless early evening as the sun was setting behind you and the pin centered on the green? How much delight did you feel after puring your 9 iron and making 2?

Is the 17th at Sand Hills not placed PERFECTLY after facing some of the beasts prior to playing this one and the beast that follows, your possible birdie opportunity if you will?

Does it fit within the whole of the golf course and within the unsurpassed ebb and flow which is the Sand Hills Golf Club ? Indeed, it does.

Finally, I offer you the following for consideration (in my next post):

 

Gene:

I have not played the hole in huge winds but I would see that as making the hole worse.  If you miss the green there is no safe place to miss it as far as I am aware.  What is the difference between 17 and an island green?  Not a lot in my book other than setting.

[Dick Kirkpatrick]

I have not played Sand Hills.

The best finishing holes I know of in relation to par are 16, 17 and 18 at St. Georges in Toronto, by Stanley Thompson.

[Cristian]

16-18 Waterville
11-12-13 Ballybunion
15-16-17 Ballybunion
5-6-7 R St George's
RCD 12-13-14
Walton Heath 15-16-17

[Patrick_Mucci]

Michael,

For a par 3, par 4 and par 5 stretch, the 4th, 5th and 6th holes at Mt Ridge are hard to beat.

# 4 is a 200+ yard par 3 to a well protected uphill green with an incredible putting surface.

# 5 is a 420 yard par 4 slightly uphill with a fairway canted right to low left, to another well protected green with a sloped putting
       surface.
# 6 is a 500 yard par 4 with fairway bunkers right and a ridge cutting across the fairway at about 200-230 from the green.
      The hole also has a unique feature in that at about 80 yards the fairway raises up to a plateau.
      Fronting that plateau are deep cross bunkers.
      The putting surface is one of the most unique you will see anywhere, with slope, incredible contours and neat wings where spectacular hole locations abound.

Mt Ridge will host the 2012 USGA Senior Amateur

[Mike Hendren]

Huckster, no doubt 16 through 18 at Sand Hills is a great stretch, but I'd rate Augusta's 12th better then SH's 17th (the former having more elasticity given the severe angle of the green which doesn't show on the tube, plus an option to miss long at one's peril) , its 11th significantly better than SH's 18 (Ii can't envision Hogan playing away from the 18th green at Sand HIlls) and its 13th miles better than SH's 17th (which features one of the great elevated tee shots in the world) but is rather pedestrian thereafter, posing no question whatsoever on the second or 3rd shots).   The "pucker factor" is there on all three holes at Augusta, while totally absent at Sand Hills. 

Of course I could easily be wrong, since I remain convinced that Augusta National Golf Club is arguably the best golf course in this country.

Bogey

[Gene Greco]

"If you miss the green there is no safe place to miss it as far as I am aware. What is the difference between 17 and an island green? Not alot in my book other than the setting." - Jason Topp


Jason:

    I think it is appropriate at some point on a golf course to examine  the player's ability to hit an accurate pitch shot from the tee. It also serves to create balance among the par 3s. At Sand Hills, there are two 220 yd par 3s, one uphill and of the heroic genre, a 190 yd downhill par three to a humpy green and the slightly uphill 145 yard 17th to a flatter green surface. I think it's a nice mix.

A similar hole to the 17th at Sand Hills but a more severe example of a hole considered by many on here to be in the "great" category is the 11th at Shinnecock Hills. Same length and slightly uphill as well, it also has the same penal properties as you describe - execute the shot or die. Its green is angled toward the front so a shot hit long leaves one with an almost impossible recovery to save par. Though the greens appear to be about the same square footage the green at Sand Hills is kinder and less severe than 11 at Shinnecock with respect to cant, pitch and contour.

Both are subjected to similar wind strengths but Shinnecock's is generally a westerly wind and Flynn accomodated the golfer in this respect by raising the back right side of the green slightly to better hold a well struck ball. Sand Hills' has winds from every conceivable direction so C&C must have figured if you can hit the green we'll cut you some slack.  

Just ask Tom Huckaby about 11 at Shinnecock.

Tom is a solid low hancp player and we watched him play ping pong there until he had a snowman!

Indeed, there is no place to hide at either of these great holes.


          Gene

[Kevin Pallier]

David and Scott have highlighted 2 of my 3 favourites in Australia: 4-6 RMW / 5-7 NSW and I'll add 14-16 at KH

As for GB&I - I love the following five:
4-6 Sunningdale (New)
6-8 Royal Troon
16 - 18 Muirfield
4-6 Cruden Bay
4-6 Lahinch

Not that I've seen it - but on TV 11-13 at Augusta looks mighty fine....ooh to dream 

[Gene Greco]

Huckster, no doubt 16 through 18 at Sand Hills is a great stretch, but I'd rate Augusta's 12th better then SH's 17th (the former having more elasticity given the severe angle of the green which doesn't show on the tube, plus an option to miss long at one's peril) , its 11th significantly better than SH's 18 (Ii can't envision Hogan playing away from the 18th green at Sand HIlls) and its 13th miles better than SH's 17th (which features one of the great elevated tee shots in the world) but is rather pedestrian thereafter, posing no question whatsoever on the second or 3rd shots).   The "pucker factor" is there on all three holes at Augusta, while totally absent at Sand Hills. 

Of course I could easily be wrong, since I remain convinced that Augusta National Golf Club is arguably the best golf course in this country.

Bogey

There are several excellent contenders for this 'title' and your selection of Amen Corner may very well be the winner.

But no "pucker factor", Bogey?

For whom?

At Augusta hit it into any one of the three water hazards present on the holes at Amen corner and take a drop, add ONE stroke. If it's on 13 chances are you'll still make par.  

At 16-18 at Sand Hills you can strike disaster at any twist or turn and there isn't anything in the rule book to save your ass. Chop til you drop.

On the 612 yd 16th from "one of the great elevated tees" block it some downwind and you're in the crap. Tiger tends to block his tee shots a bit doesn't he? Hook it a bit into the wind and you're in the crap. Tiger hooks it a bit, too. Then what? For you and me we chop it out hopefully with one blow and those blowouts lining the left side become a little more fearsome looking while we size up our third and we're still 350 yards away.

On the 17th, please refer to the outline of trouble I presented to Jason above. Tiger is not going to hit it over the green but he can plug it unplayable into the side of the bunker on a left side pin or spin it off on a front pin into the wind.

On 18 I have seen 4 birdies in 14 years from the back tees, one from Mr. Christian on July 4th of this year. Tiger blocks it off the tee downwind and he's in the gunch or that horrible bunker about 300 out. Tiger hooks it and he ends up in a blowout the size of which he last saw in footage from Apollo 13 behind a clump which is not allowed to be or is going to be moved for him by his fans.

You and I do the same, big numbers.

Then we all get our chance to putt on that Godforsaken green. Pin is on the right front. Tiger makes bogey you and I take our 7s.

I'd say there's plenty of pucker factor on 16-18 at Sand Hills for 99.9% of all golfers and for Tiger, too, with tough pins and a bit of wind which is omnipresent at Sand Hills and comparatively only a little wisp, granted usually on #12, at Augusta National.

[Tom Huckaby]

Thank you, Gene.  I have nothing to add as you covered it perfectly.  Except this... on a totally different thread I also just mentioned my snowman on 11 at Shinnecock.. we have some fine esp going today.. and that does remain both a proud and shameful moment for me.

 

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