[Sean_A]

Mike W:

I'll give that some thought -- can't say off the top of my head of a particular course where luck is the dominant aspect for all shots for the complete 18. Likely I can review and let you know -- courses with an abundance of H20 would likely be viable candidates. Keep in mind -- I never opined about a particular course -- I simply compared the nature of the 9th at Kingsley to Teh Dell Hole at Lahinch.

Sean:

You just keep on avoiding the question I asked of you before and will do so again now ...

Have you played the 9th at Kingsley ?

The reason I ask this is because the 9th at Kingsley forms a major element of my overall discussion through the insertion of The Dell Hole and how the "controversial" nature to the MI hole as deemed by some as being over-the-top.

Sean -- simple "yes" or "no" answer and we can move matters along.

In regards to your last post ...

Hold the phone amigo -- you are the guy who said, "You don't think experience adds anything to the Dell?"

I answered you in my previous post -- you'll need to read what I wrote as I hate to type again and again the same point(s) -- I opined that The Dell is nothing more than a contrivance where random potluck is cental to the playing of the hole. I also mentioned in a few posts previous to that one that having the surrounding grass on the banks being allowed to grow to 5-6 inches was also unnecessary and simply done to penalize players even more so.

Experience to any shot / hole can help -- but it is the actual design and how such things play out that determine the end result. Teh Dell is beyond experience -- it elevates potluck far more into the overall equation.

Sean, a golfer can blade his tee ball and with a helpful kick off the sideboards can finish with his approach on the green and if the golf gods are smiling on him even possibly make a two and proceed from there. Great design accentuates the skill component -- and while one cannot (and should not) eliminate luck / random outcomes -- the likelihood of their emergence will be far, far less.

You also state, "all shots take far more skill than luck." Really? We again disagree. Certain holes allow for luck / chance to emerge more frequently than other holes. The 9th at Kingsley walks a very narrow tight rope but skill is still the more dominant ingredient. The Dell Hole is all about random chance -- akin to the spinning of the wheel at the local carnival and hoping one's number lands on the coveted spot.

Sean, you make a point about yardage markers but frankly the game has more serious ills beyond yardage markers. I see you point in that regard because often on any links layout the stated yardage and effective playing yardage are two entirely different numbers.

I do agree that judging a shot and then executing are two entirely different matters. However, one can judge until Jesus returns and it won't matter much, if at all, when playing The Dell Hole.

Sean, you won't convince me of the nature of The Dell Hole -- let me emphasize I am a huge fan of much of what exists at Lahinch and would thoroughly recommend playing the course with the small exception I have stated. You say my contention of the role of the golf gods is "sheer folly." With all due respect partner -- your head is in the sand on that one.

I appreciate the snobby end statement that your definition of "skill is far beyond your (my) interpretation. I see it vastly different than you and when you state, "For sure, identifying skill is first and foremost ...," -- I was the one who mentioned that to YOU in an earlier post.

Matt

I am thrilled you appreciate that I have wider definition of what skill is than you do.  However, it wasn't meant as snobby in the least.  Merely a statement of fact.  Since I consider that far more than luck is involved in playing the Dell and you don't, it follows that my definition of skill is wider than yours.

Ciao

[Matt_Ward]

Sean:

Again, another word play on your part ...

I never said or agreed your take is "wider" -- just simply different than mine. Got it.

You say it's a statement of "fact" -- it's nothing more than your opinion.

Your definition of skill simply means you embrace the nature of a hole(s) which allow for random chance to be
a dominant ingredient. If such hole(s) / or even courses for that matter float your boat then by all means knock yourself
out and play them to your hearts content.

Thanks Sean for avoiding the question -- the 9th at Kingsley -- that was simply asked and clearly avoided several times over on your part. If you had played the hole you would understand what others have mentioned concerning the hole and how it compares / contrast to The Dell Hole.

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