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Tiger_Bernhardt

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Not this is getting serious
« on: August 12, 2009, 09:22:39 AM »
The strong man from from that country best known for women and oil has gone too far. I was a bit mifted to discover how our oil lobby has protected his company and they pay no taxes on their oil imported into America to refine at their refineries. But closing golf courses as a political statement is gong to far. The NY Times details this morning.

K. Krahenbuhl

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Not this is getting serious
« Reply #1 on: August 12, 2009, 09:24:50 AM »
I've played with enough of you guys from this site to know that there is no way that golf is a "bourgeois sport".

Steve_ Shaffer

  • Karma: +0/-0
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Scott Warren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Not this is getting serious
« Reply #3 on: August 12, 2009, 09:30:31 AM »
Quote
Then he went on, mocking the use of golf carts as a practice illustrating the sport’s laziness.

;D

He's not without a point...

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Not this is getting serious
« Reply #4 on: August 12, 2009, 09:40:24 AM »
Here's the article from the NYT Digest this morning:

"President Hugo Chávez’s political movement has found a new target: golf. Pro-Chávez officials have moved in recent weeks to shut down two of the country’s best-known golf courses, in Maracay, a city of military garrisons near here, and in Caraballeda.
“Let’s leave this clear,” Chávez said during his Sunday television program. “Golf is a bourgeois sport.” He mocked the use of golf carts as a practice illustrating the sport’s laziness.
The government’s broad nationalizations and asset seizures have gone far beyond the oil industry to include coffee roasters, cattle ranches and tomato-processing plants. If the golf closings go forward, the number of courses shut down in the last three years will be about nine, said Julio L. Torres, director of the Venezuelan Golf Federation. A project on Margarita Island, intended to be South America’s top course, was halted because of financial problems.
Critics of the anti-golf campaign point out that Venezuela’s top ally, Cuba, is going in the opposite direction. Canadian and European investors are seeking to build as many as 10 new courses in Cuba as part of the Cuban government’s bid to raise tourist revenues. SIMON ROMERO"

Note:  Chavez and Melvyn are on the same wavelength, mocking "the use of golf carts as a practice illustrating the sport’s laziness."   ;D

Who is the GCA for the Margarita Island project?

I wonder if Chavez understands he's cutting off a potential source of foreign money (golf travel) and jobs for Venezuelans?  I'm sure he could care less, this is all about his populist appeal.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Not this is getting serious
« Reply #5 on: August 12, 2009, 09:54:15 AM »
I think the Margarita Island course was being designed by one of the Joneses.  One of the guys behind it was Freddy Alcantara, an old friend of their dad's who was a GOLF Magazine panelist for many years.

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Not this is getting serious
« Reply #6 on: August 12, 2009, 10:05:09 AM »
As to carts, well the picture they chose to show was a walker with a caddy.  I presume closing those golf courses will also cost several dozen jobs, but of course worth it for some reason.

How many more years before current US govt decides it knows better than its citizens and businesses what golf courses should survive and which should not?  Its a small chance, but it could happen here.  Would our greatest golf courses be shut down, but our ;owest cost muni's (and 100% walking courses) be the only ones kept under such a scenario? 
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Mike Sweeney

Re: Not this is getting serious
« Reply #7 on: August 12, 2009, 10:11:23 AM »
I think the Margarita Island course was being designed by one of the Joneses.  One of the guys behind it was Freddy Alcantara, an old friend of their dad's who was a GOLF Magazine panelist for many years.

I actually played that course in 1989. Potential candidate for a Doak Zero from what I remember:

http://www.golfworldmap.com/southamerica/venezuela/hesperiaislamargarita/index.html

I always remember the caddies were drinking beer on the course and threw the empties into the rough. For the life of me I could never figure that caddy trick out.  :'(

Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Not this is getting serious
« Reply #8 on: August 12, 2009, 10:15:47 AM »
How many more years before current US govt decides it knows better than its citizens and businesses what golf courses should survive and which should not?  Its a small chance, but it could happen here.  Would our greatest golf courses be shut down, but our ;owest cost muni's (and 100% walking courses) be the only ones kept under such a scenario? 

You are usually sound of mind. Is the heat getting to you?
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Doug Ralston

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Not this is getting serious
« Reply #9 on: August 12, 2009, 10:27:04 AM »
As to carts, well the picture they chose to show was a walker with a caddy.  I presume closing those golf courses will also cost several dozen jobs, but of course worth it for some reason.

How many more years before current US govt decides it knows better than its citizens and businesses what golf courses should survive and which should not?  Its a small chance, but it could happen here.  Would our greatest golf courses be shut down, but our ;owest cost muni's (and 100% walking courses) be the only ones kept under such a scenario? 

Yes Jeff, along with the 'Death Panels'. The sky is falling too.

FYI [because so many obviously need the reminder], capitalism is NOT a religion. I am admittedly a 'liberal' by most conventional definitions, but I love capitalism. It really made the USA a production economy par excellance. I also love socialism, which works well for services AND for keeping some NEEDED reins on the capital economic forces. A demonstration of that need is so recent even capitalist theocrats could not have missed it unless they determinedly refused to look! And I admit I trust more those who I can unelect than those I cannot.

Chavez is a weak minded tinhorn whom many love to use as a 'strawman'; pretending some relationship between him and those in the USA with whom they contend. Too many Hitler, Stalin, Chavez references from both sides of that ill-defined aisle.

As for golf, even here it must surely be admitted that much of golf history HAS been class centered. I am incredibly happy that the sport I have come to enjoy and admire has gone through such a growth as to make it available to most everyone. I certainly do not think that idiot should use it as HIS strawman. Neither the courses not those who work on them did anything that I know of to draw his emnity. ***K him!

But please don't try to conflate him with others of a quite different temper.

Doug
Where is everybody? Where is Tommy N? Where is John K? Where is Jay F? What has happened here? Has my absence caused this chaos? I'm sorry. All my rowdy friends have settled down ......... somewhere else!

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Not this is getting serious
« Reply #10 on: August 12, 2009, 10:28:21 AM »
Jim,

Just channeling Lou Duran who I am playing golf with in the heat on Saturday.  

However, I have been through the golf course/environmental wars of the 1990's and there were many who thought not too differently than Chavez about golf - that the govt ought to decide on where, how many, etc. golf courses there ought to be, what they should charge, etc.  Environmental reasons often masked or masqueraded as socialist reasons, and the country is clearly turning left more than a bit right now and the idea that govt should decide what was formerly personal business or business business is gaining traction.

I am not saying its a problem and I did say there was a SMALL chance it could be a problem for golf in the future.  Its like an ICBM early warning detection post!  So, its worth discussion perhaps on a theoretical basis.  

It just struck me that IF things got a lot out of hand here, but presuming that they would keep some courses open, even most, what kind of courses do you think that type of anti-golf leader might suggest be closed?  

For example, I know that Bandon's business is down a lot, because 68% flies in on corporate jets, and business is reducing that kind of entertainment simply to stay under Obama's radar.  That is a far cry from official punishment of business or industry by govt, I know.  Its aimed at the wealthy, it takes up coastland that should be "reserved for the people (even though few would use it otherwise and what would they do, walk on it?  Why not give them clubs and a ball!)  Would that one be on someone's hit list for the same reasons we want to keep it?

Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Melvyn Morrow

Re: Not this is getting serious
« Reply #11 on: August 12, 2009, 10:36:48 AM »

Wow, look at all of us rushing to protect the game of golf, yet I have not noticed one word about history, One single paragraph about how golf REALLY got started in a big way certainly in Scotland.

Yes, originally golf was the preserve of the rich but from the explosion form around 30 clubs to 2,500 in the late 19th Century that was based upon the people, the landowners and yes of course the rich. It was a coming together of all. Old Tom fees at £1 per day for 50 years goes a long way to proving this point.

Where are the defenders of the faith - Ops, sorry Tom P, this is not about American golf (or is it) so you will not lower yourself to get involved. That’s what history really means to you, thanks for the IM and most kind words.

Nevertheless, History will blow a great big hole in Chavez argument if someone would advise him of the real story behind its expansion and development.

Rich, no, not men like Old Tom, he was not rich in the early days, James Hunter was not rich when he went to Canada the Georgia, Alabama, and that is just those in my family. Many, many others non-rich exist, they played the game for enjoyment. Miners, Servants, men working in factories all played and formed their own clubs, some sharing courses with the, what was the word bourgeois” clubs.

As for carts, well unless you need them to get around and play, then those who use them are fair game to be called, whatever.  They chose so should accept the consequences, something to do with perhaps being responsible for ones decision.

Alas Chavez is not just wrong, and in doing so will show his total ignorance for Golf and its deep and rich heritage. Yet he is not alone, this site has a majority who seem less than interested in the history of their game, so should we really have a go at him and perhaps look a little more inwardly.

We sow what we reap, perhaps the image of spoilt rich men having a temper tantrum does send out a message, regrettable this time to the wrong person.

The man is just showing his ignorance of the history of the game and me thinks it’s a message aimed at certain highly influential people in a specific country.

 Melvyn


Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Not this is getting serious
« Reply #12 on: August 12, 2009, 11:01:41 AM »
Guys,
He's been talking this for a few years now.....really you have to understand the Latin culture for much of this stuff and I have been working there 12 years and still get confused...what ...right now we have Zayala or whatever is name in Honduras...threatening to retaliate if not put back in office....Chavez....the entire culture in that area is very macho , tetosterone laden culture.....we play the game and listen etc but in reality...we could take each one of them out in about 5 minutes and there would be another...it is an extremely corrupt culture even to the point of they consider it proper.....our press never really says just how lopsided it is in those places.... ;D
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Not this is getting serious
« Reply #13 on: August 12, 2009, 11:25:51 AM »
Jeff,
Perhaps my view of left/right  is different than yours, I don't think the country ever gets too skewed one way or the other for very long.

I thought that companies who weren't taking taxpayer's money were under no obligation to anyone but their stockholders, and their cutbacks on corporate jaunts in personal jets was driven by economics, period.

Ten percent of the population plays/watches golf, I don't think we are in any danger of losing courses to government sanctions.

EDIT: I'm editing this post as I just saw an earlier reference to 'Death Panels'. My use was for humor, not politics, and I would have chosen another 'stupid belief' as an example had I seen the way in which it was used in that other reply.
« Last Edit: August 12, 2009, 02:03:01 PM by Jim_Kennedy »
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Not this is getting serious
« Reply #14 on: August 12, 2009, 11:34:17 AM »
Jeff,

I don't suffer fools gladly.  Neither should you.

Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Not this is getting serious
« Reply #15 on: August 12, 2009, 01:06:24 PM »
Lou,
You don't have to, no one was talking to you.

...........and by the way, the 'you' I was referring to was the generic 'you'. You know that person, the one who believes everything they hear from one nutjob or another, no matter the side.
« Last Edit: August 12, 2009, 01:08:28 PM by Jim_Kennedy »
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Joe Hancock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Not this is getting serious
« Reply #16 on: August 12, 2009, 01:29:20 PM »
The strong man from from that country best known for women and oil has gone too far.

Aw, hell, I thought this was about Iran...  ;)

Funny...I thought it was a old thread about Bush and Texas......

 ;D
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Craig Van Egmond

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Not this is getting serious
« Reply #17 on: August 12, 2009, 01:43:31 PM »

Jim,

      Lou appeared to be responding to Jeff and not Jim, hence the use of the name Jeff and not Jim. :)


Doug Ralston

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Not this is getting serious
« Reply #18 on: August 12, 2009, 01:44:26 PM »
Yeah, where's Dougy-Wuggy when we need him...  ;)

Right here Shivas, so wanna read it now? CAN you think and put thoughts forth, or just contempt?

Here Shivas, here boy:

Shivas, Jeez!

Of course my question was aimed at everyone. That is the point of these threads. I was NOT addressing you, and you jumped in to ATTACK me, not to answer my question. And humorously, you agree with me that the rule was wrong.

But once more that is NOT the real question, or the important point of it. The REAL question is WHY, why they felt the need to intervene. No rationale is clear to me except the NEED for people in power to make the World in their image. If THEY would not use that style then it must be wrong for all, should be made illegal!

Do you not see the point here. Most of the people arguing with you on the origional point about long putter have said similar things. They would not use the long putter so it should be illegal. The REASONS for making rules is VASTLY more important than the rules themselves, because it is about HOW we make law/rules in our society.

Two levels: Two Clauses:

1. That is wrong and I would never do that. [Certainly always available to us]

2. That is wrong and NO ONE may ever do that. [WHEN is this justifiable?]

You see? I think many [most?] people jump straight to the second clause WAY too often. And I think these little questions are a great example. Our almost inate desire to see ourselves as superior, and try to remake the World in our image, just lead those WHO CAN to use clause two for many things that so clearly belong only in clause one.

Sam Snead was doing something golf 'purists' thought LOOKED bad. I think in retrospect most here recognize that was the reason. And instead of seeing it as something THEY would not do, they used their power as rules makers to intervene as if it was justifiable under clause two.

Now, I have my own tenant as to what determines the difference between those two clauses I have offered. Shivas, you have heard it before, but did not like the flavor. It has to do with 'demonstratable damage done to another unnecessarily and against their will'. ONLY when that happens should clause two be considered, IMHO.

A great philosopher once said the a man it most strongly defined by what he is willing to die to defend. My ground to defend is this ground.

Doug

Hey, golf as a metaphor for life, did you notice  .
Where is everybody? Where is Tommy N? Where is John K? Where is Jay F? What has happened here? Has my absence caused this chaos? I'm sorry. All my rowdy friends have settled down ......... somewhere else!

Ken Moum

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Not this is getting serious
« Reply #19 on: August 12, 2009, 01:50:58 PM »
The strong man from from that country best known for women and oil has gone too far.

Aw, hell, I thought this was about Iran...  ;)

none better than http://www.catherinebellonline.com/main.html

Over time, the guy in the ideal position derives an advantage, and delivering him further  advantage is not worth making the rest of the players suffer at the expense of fun, variety, and ultimately cost -- Jeff Warne, 12-08-2010

Sean Eidson

Re: Not this is getting serious
« Reply #20 on: August 12, 2009, 01:52:09 PM »
Jeff - I'll engage in your debate...

I think that this is a real estate question and that as long as the US has plenty of inexpensive real estate, albeit often on outer limits of major metro areas, existing golf courses will be as sacred as parks, lakes, and other green spaces.  Even closer in town, there's plenty of land that could be repurposed before taking over the golf courses.  In Dallas, think about all the underutilized real estate around Brook Hollow that would be repurposed before the golf course would be destroyed.

What I think could happen is that the government could attack the private club concept and force courses to allow anyone to play.  We're already seeing this happen at the local level.  I've played at two newer courses (one in California, one in Utah) where part of the permitting negotiation was that they must allow public play.  In California, the course is clearly positioned to be a private club, but the city required 10 years of public play before they could go private.

I drive past two exclusive country clubs with interesting courses to get to my home course. I would definitely welcome a transition that encourages more public access.  My POV will probably change when I join one of those clubs, but for the moment, it's tough to look through the hedges.

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Not this is getting serious
« Reply #21 on: August 12, 2009, 01:54:43 PM »
I gotta admit, I don't understand a single post from Lou's on here.....there are Smarter guys than me!

Sorry to offend anyone, esp. Lou, and hated to have stepped in the poo.  As Gary Larsen said of one of his unfunny Far Side Cartoons, "Sometimes between concept and exectution, things can go awry."  My not so subtle humorous attempt to portray mysfelf and fellow Texans as decent but concerned moderate right wingers (as they have been known to express on their own) went horribly wrong somehow.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Not this is getting serious
« Reply #22 on: August 12, 2009, 02:10:47 PM »
Sean,

I agree because the govt has (depending on your POV) attacked the club concept.  I recall the opening to the original World Atlas of Golf bemoaning the end of the private club era, because tax benefits were being taken away and predicting golf clubs would some day be fond memories.  Obviously, many corporate tax bennies went out when Reagan and others dropped the tax rates, but clubs do survive.  And, I can respect both points of view.

Later, the govt (and Martha Burke) attacked the general concepts of private golf clubs, with the govt putting strict rules on what is considered private- you are not private by ADA and tax code definition if you allow business talk (might be unfair to minorities and women who can't get in), sponsor public functions like weddings, which makes you a place of public accomodation, etc.  That really limited the purposes of many private clubs in the name of equality, even though the definition of a club IS to separate yourselves somehow.  Again, I understand both POV.

The environmental movement seeks to restrict use of pesticides, chemicals, water, etc. for golf, even though its not as big a player as other political industries (ag, homeowners)  I think they understand that they don't have the legal rights to stop clubs, but use the idea of "stakeholders" (i.e. the general public) to force changes.

Certainly local govts have provided public golf for a long time, getting involved in our game in a positive way.  Buick's current withdrawal from the Tour is in part in response to their current relationship to govt (and bankruptcy, to be fair!)

So, govt involvement in golf is a long standing trend.  Most of it is moving golf towards the public side anyway, since it seems to me, most govt actions are intended and do represent the "little guy." I understand that.  I also understand that it is possible, not today or tomorrow, that at some point, the govt MIGHT take yet another step in golf to serve other political reasons that could have results we don't like very much as golfers. 

God knows, painting golf as an elitist sport, not much different than Chavez, does happen here.

Like you, I wouldn't mind giving up my club membership.  I only belong because I negotiated a free membership anyway.  Most of my other golf is also free because of industry ties.  And yet, while its not my scene, I think it would be a shame when any kind of govt control tips the scales against the concept of private clubs in some outright, or perhaps less obvious way.  The less obvious way is far more likely here in the US than a Chavez type pronouncement, although I wouldn't put that type of statement out of the question by some of our most liberal leaders!

I understand Melyvn's point, but in the US, it doesn't matter what real history is, its what news and politicians count on people not remembering.  It seems we play into that and generally don't recall related events that happen before, oh the last two weeks or so.  And, it seems a lot of policy is made based on the most recent event, rather than any long term focus.

But, I digress from golf today!
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Joe Hancock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Not this is getting serious
« Reply #23 on: August 12, 2009, 02:41:08 PM »
Like shooting fish in a barrel.......
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Not this is getting serious
« Reply #24 on: August 12, 2009, 05:55:44 PM »
[
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon