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BCrosby

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Part IV - Crane in the Golden Age
« on: August 11, 2009, 02:01:04 PM »
Ran is caught in court today. Something about inflated handicaps, slander, disgorging winnings.....or maybe I got that wrong. In any event he asked me to introduce Part IV of my Crane essay.

The iconic distinction between penal and strategic design schools arose at the time of the Crane debates. Crane was called a lot of things by MacKenzie and Behr, but the one he disliked the most was to be called a "penologist". (Crumbo Croome was much more polite in Field Magazine.)

Part IV takes a look at the penal/strategic distinction in light of Crane's actual views. The venerable distinction is one that I have long thought was unhelpful, both as a mattter of history and at the level of ideas. It does not describe very well the historic record nor does it do a very good job of clarifying fundamental differences in golf architecture. In fact, I think the distinction is a muddle and ought to be dropped.

I also believe that the Crane debates suggest a better way to distinguish fundamental differences in golf design philosophies.

At any rate, I hope people find the discussion in Part IV interesting.

Bob 

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Part IV - Crane in the Golden Age
« Reply #1 on: August 12, 2009, 09:05:51 AM »
Bob
Thanks for sharing your essay. It is extremely well done - obviously a great deal of research and thought went into it. I'm disappointed by the lack of comments, and IMO that is a reflection on the current state of GCA rather than quality of the essay. Releasing it in installments may have contributed to the responses - I'm not sure that is a good idea.

My admiration for your efforts should not be construed as agreeing with your conclusions. There was a great debate going on at the time, but IMO Crane was only a minor player. I also have a hard time with the dubbing of Mallaby-Dealy and Taylor as penologists. Prince's was formed in 1906, any judgement of that project should be relative to 1906. Crane was writing two decades later. And although Taylor may not have been the paradigm of strategic golf I don't think calling him penal is fair or accurate. After all he was the man who in 1917 warned that American courses were in danger of becoming too difficult for the average golfer.

TEPaul

Re: Part IV - Crane in the Golden Age
« Reply #2 on: August 12, 2009, 09:17:59 AM »
Bob:

Wonderful job!

Again, I think the terms "CP&P" and certainly "Equitable Architecture" ("CP&P to become a definitional basis for "Equitable Architecture" and "Equitable Architecture" to replace the old common term "penal") should very definitely become part of the commonly used lexicon of golf architecture. Both of them are so much easier to understand what "penal" always struggled to define and explain but never did.

PS:
You also have a wonderful "turn of phrase."  (Crumbo Croome, indeed!)

PPS:
Can you imagine if Behr and Crane were on GOLFCLUBALTAS.com? Ran Morrissett might have to have them on some kind of permanent state of probation!

PPPS:
I just found a letter from Max to Josh in which Max began: "Joshua, your mind is no different than a God-damned toilet bowl; we get out of it what you put into it,....."

Peter Pallotta

Re: Part IV - Crane in the Golden Age
« Reply #3 on: August 12, 2009, 03:39:03 PM »
Bob - thanks again, and for the perspective and summation that Part 4 offers. Of the many interesting aspects, one is the the way in which "Robert Trent Jones revived many of the same themes, endowing the penal v. strategic distinction with the canonical status it currently enjoys."  This is not to slag RTJ in practice, but in theory his ideas seem a devolution from the nuance/complexity that is found (at least inherently/implied) in the earlier version of the discussion.  That RTJ's "distinction is today a core concept in golf architecture" isn't surprising -- it is a simple and black and white distinction, and simplicity seems to sell pretty well in the big wide world. Heck, it worked for me for a long, long time (and in truth, probably still does a little)

Peter
« Last Edit: August 12, 2009, 03:44:27 PM by Peter Pallotta »

Rich Goodale

Re: Part IV - Crane in the Golden Age
« Reply #4 on: August 19, 2009, 08:03:47 AM »
Excellent work, Bob.  'Tis a pity that so few people seem to willing to add their thoughts. :'(

I think that even if the only effect of your essay is to put to bed once and for all the straw man of "penal" architecture, it will have been worth all the effort.  I like the phrasing of "equitable architecture," and think it is a more useful counterpoint to the phrase of "strategic architecture," even though I think the latter should and could also be re-phrased.  I also like your tone which seems to recognise that whatever we call these two "schools," they lie on a continuum and not at oppostie poles.  Unlike Peter, I think that simple black/white distinctions are rarely useful unless thought of as arbitrary rhetorical markers on a mostly grey scale.

I also find your work interesting in terms of the recent thread regarding the rough at Hazeltine.  The complaints on the greenside rough from Ogilvy, Huggan and others seems to be absolutely Cranean in nature (in effect, "How dare they so greatly penalize the almost perfectly hit shot!"), which is very amusing coming from the mouths of two of Behr's greatest modern disciples. ;)

To me, this is easily the finest and most thought-provoking essay ever written on the site, by a goodly margin.  Thanks you Ran, and most importantly, thank you Bob.

Rich

TEPaul

Re: Part IV - Crane in the Golden Age
« Reply #5 on: August 19, 2009, 09:52:10 AM »
"Tis a pity that so few people seem to willing to add their thoughts.  :'("


Ricardo The Magnificient:

Yes it is; yes it is indeed!!

But there is a very good and very clear reason for that. Bob Crosby is an over-arching intellectual and world class philosopher from Harvard and other institutions of higher learning and he's of the ranks of the very Best and Brightest in America even if he tries hard to hide all that with his semi-laid back Georgia persona.

His essays on both Crane and John Low are frankly far too EPISTEMOLOGICAL for this website since there are only about 4-10 people on this website capable of filtering through what he has written. They would include YOU, Ricardo The Magnificent, Peter Pallotta, Kirk Gill, Bob Crosby hisself, and of course me. The rest are all some variation of that Georgia bon mot----eg "Dumb as a Stump."

The fact is it is a lot easier to discuss whether the 17th ranked course in New Jersey is warranted than it is whether Crane was some Mrs. Grundy like penologist or merely some form of an "Equitable Architecturalist" struggling to get in touch with his TRUE renaissance recreational SELF!

Of course trying to figure out exactly what Max Behr really was is one ultra tall order that perhaps only the likes of Bob Crosby could possibly tap or fathom. I've been reading Max for over a decade now and all I truly know about him, at this point, is he really did have some kind of repressed sexual fixation for the "floater" golf ball and he also REALLY did think Arnold Haultain was no more than a third rate poetic dream-merchant on the subject of golf and golf course architecture (I did find a draft version of one of Behr's articles in which he said about Haultain----"fresh footprints in the dew, MY ASS!").

Now, Richard, you just called Ogilvy and Huggan Cranian!?! I hope you realize that is bound to be the deepest cut of all to those two and I just hope they don't catch you in some Scottish pub or they are both bound to bounce you around in some truly strategic and multi-optional "Whole Pub" way! I think the best you can hope for is that Ogilvy might deign to use his hickories on you rather than his Triple X shafted competition clubs!
« Last Edit: August 19, 2009, 10:06:01 AM by TEPaul »

BCrosby

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Part IV - Crane in the Golden Age
« Reply #6 on: August 19, 2009, 11:03:05 AM »
Rich -

Thanks for the kind words. Part IV was stimulated in part by discussions you and I have had at GCA over the years about the inadequacies of the old penal/strategic distinction. When you pause to think about it, the distinction is a mess. Trying to describe why it is a mess and then lay out better ways to get at fundamental differences in gca was the whole point of the piece. I appreciate you, TEP, Peter and others for getting that. Some of the piece is heavy sleddiing.   

To your other point, yes, the views that Crane expressed are still very much with us. Not because those moderns know anything about Crane. They don't. It's because their ideas are rooted in the same set of assumptions about how good golf architecture is supposed to work. So in a way, Crane is quite alive, as is the tradition he came from. Ogilvy's bitching about getting punished for "almost good shots" is a great example.

Bob 

TEPaul

Re: Part IV - Crane in the Golden Age
« Reply #7 on: August 19, 2009, 11:16:58 AM »
"It's because their ideas are rooted in the same set of assumptions about how good golf architecture is supposed to work. So in a way, Crane is quite alive, as is the tradition he came from. Ogilvy's bitching about getting punished for "almost good shots" is a great example."


Bob:

I sure do agree that Crane's ideas are alive in golf architecture today, even though they may've been a bit more alive 20 years ago and back than they are today, given some of the restoration ideas and the number of significant courses that have gotten into that (and even SOME of the new construction ideas that revert back to some old principles of strategic architecture.


Also, I don't know if you watched the PGA at Hazeltine but I don't know if one could find much of a consensus anywhere that that kind of ultra penal rough around most all the greens was the right architectural thing to do under most any philosophy.

But if one is going to defend it somehow as truly penalized an "Almost Good Shot" (which it sure did do) that frankly was the philosophy of Behr et al and not so much Crane. Crane's overall philosophy was more in the mode of really penalizing truly bad shots.

I think we need to face up to these kinds of examples and which category they really do need to be in because if we don't this kind of essay will just begin to further confuse people.

I mean I sure do realize that the Behr/Mackenzie philosophy sure didn't seem to advocate heavy rough (or even any real rough at all) but it certainly did advocate the philosophy of penalizing the "almost good shot" and no one can deny that "rough" is just another form of "hazard" like bunkers etc.
« Last Edit: August 19, 2009, 11:22:03 AM by TEPaul »

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Part IV - Crane in the Golden Age
« Reply #8 on: August 19, 2009, 12:58:23 PM »
I have not commented much because I do not think there is much to add; Mr. Crosby covered the subject that well.

I do agree with him that the "strategic" vs. "penal" debate is a poor way to phrase the differences, and I've always been uncomfortable with it, though I have had to write about it on more than one occasion because editors usually INSIST on it, the same way they insist on discussing Donald Ross's crowned greens.

I think the most interesting part of the discussion is about the nature of hazards.  The proponents of "proportional" penalties want the hazards to be predictable in nature, whereas the strategic school wants the hazards to be severe, or dare I say, penal.

Dr. MacKenzie had a nice passage in his book about golf architecture being like cricket ... there is a big field and relatively few fielders, so lots of bad shots go unpunished, but eventually one bad one is your downfall, and whoever is playing his best usually wins, anyway.  I suspect Crane would not have liked cricket, either.

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Part IV - Crane in the Golden Age
« Reply #9 on: August 19, 2009, 03:34:32 PM »
I have not commented much because I do not think there is much to add; Mr. Crosby covered the subject that well.

Dr. MacKenzie had a nice passage in his book about golf architecture being like cricket ... there is a big field and relatively few fielders, so lots of bad shots go unpunished, but eventually one bad one is your downfall, and whoever is playing his best usually wins, anyway.  I suspect Crane would not have liked cricket, either.

Mr. Crosby always says things so well....that's why I use him as my wing man in bars etc.....

TD,
I think you are dead on above....
Hogan said he had no more than 5 good shots in a good round.....and what you state above sort of sum up the entire game at the top level....it's how good are your misses.....Tiger's shot at 17 was a good example of a shot he executed as he thought was needed and was just a few feet from changing the outcome.....
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Part IV - Crane in the Golden Age
« Reply #10 on: August 19, 2009, 10:46:14 PM »
My Mother was a Stump  :P

Bob,
My sense is this is just a start, Do you plan to get into the 'worrisome issues' in another essay?
Or were you hoping to educate and spur discussion with just this one?

Couple of random thoughts as read Part IV. (Bare with me. I'm just one of the peons)

The best shots always come from the worst spots. Penalizing the less than perfect player, more severely, lies at the crossroads of this debate. This intersection is Competitive v. Recreational. Clearly, the competitive, or game mind, won out on most of the golf courses across the globe, built in our modern era. Now, golf, the great game we all know it can be (and to a greater number of people) fails to attract new players. It is not unfair to place the blame for that lack of new blood on this competitive school. Is it?
 Ironically, the designers throughout these ensuing decades have been building courses that stifle their production. If the recreational school had won the day, whose to say that there wouldn't be 170,000 courses in the U.S. versus the paltry 17k?

I'll stop there just in case I'm stating the obvious, again.


 
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

TEPaul

Re: Part IV - Crane in the Golden Age
« Reply #11 on: August 19, 2009, 11:00:10 PM »
"....that's why I use him as my wing man in bars etc....."


Michael:

What does a good wing man in bars etc do----convince the chicks not to slap the tar outta you?

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Part IV - Crane in the Golden Age
« Reply #12 on: August 19, 2009, 11:05:53 PM »
"....that's why I use him as my wing man in bars etc....."


Michael:

What does a good wing man in bars etc do----convince the chicks not to slap the tar outta you?


A good wingman pretends to be interested in the friend of the girl your buddy is trying to have a go at.... usually an "undesireable"

I tried it once and got manhandled by a beast from missoula, she was a rough cowgirl...and my buddy failed too boot...oh well!!

TEPaul

Re: Part IV - Crane in the Golden Age
« Reply #13 on: August 19, 2009, 11:33:34 PM »
"A good wingman pretends to be interested in the friend of the girl your buddy is trying to have a go at.... usually an "undesireable"



Is THAT right? THAT sounds like the "Everyman" version of John Nash's GAME THEORY! In the real world that CAN BE bunkum. The real deal, while rare, and rare is good, is that all five of you hit on the prettiest chick of the five and once in Blue Moon maybe she'll just tell her four friends to get lost and she'll take you all on herself!

The problem with "social" geniuses like Nash and his "Game Theory" is he frankly only looked at if from the "Boys" side not the flip side!


TEPaul

Re: Part IV - Crane in the Golden Age
« Reply #14 on: August 19, 2009, 11:35:40 PM »
BobC:

My last post is precisely the kind of response you were secretly looking for with your UBER EPISTEMOLOGICAL essay, right?

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Part IV - Crane in the Golden Age
« Reply #15 on: August 20, 2009, 05:43:07 AM »
TP,
R u around this weekend?  I'm in Philly......
Faceman
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Part IV - Crane in the Golden Age
« Reply #16 on: August 20, 2009, 06:51:54 AM »
Perhaps if there were an essay to counter Bob's it would stimulate more conversation on the substance of the subject.

Rich Goodale

Re: Part IV - Crane in the Golden Age
« Reply #17 on: August 20, 2009, 07:44:35 AM »
Perhaps if there were an essay to counter Bob's it would stimulate more conversation on the substance of the subject.

Au contraire, Tom.

The most responded to essays tend to be ones which have no counter essays but which are seriously flawed by themselves.  The lack of substantive response tells me that Bob has made some very good points which are very difficult to argue against.  If you feel otherwise, feel free to submit a counter essay, or even respond substantively, if you so wish.

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Part IV - Crane in the Golden Age
« Reply #18 on: August 20, 2009, 07:56:21 AM »
Perhaps if there were an essay to counter Bob's it would stimulate more conversation on the substance of the subject.

Au contraire, Tom.

The most responded to essays tend to be ones which have no counter essays but which are seriously flawed by themselves.  The lack of substantive response tells me that Bob has made some very good points which are very difficult to argue against.  If you feel otherwise, feel free to submit a counter essay, or even respond substantively, if you so wish.

Rihc

You have it in one.  Bob did a good job with his piece.  There isn't much there up for grabs.  While I don't care too much about the distinction, I can see where Bob is coming from and why it makes sense.  Like you, I think the most important aspect of the Strategic/Penal dichotomy is to recognize that they are far from polar opposites and are instead part of a continuum.  All good courses will travel up and down that continuum.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Part IV - Crane in the Golden Age
« Reply #19 on: August 20, 2009, 02:22:42 PM »
A counter essay was the wrong term - I should have said an alternative interpretation of what was going on with Crane et.al. There was a much larger debate taking place and Crane was a minor player.

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Part IV - Crane in the Golden Age
« Reply #20 on: August 20, 2009, 08:47:01 PM »
Perhaps if there were an essay to counter Bob's it would stimulate more conversation on the substance of the subject.

Au contraire, Tom.

The most responded to essays tend to be ones which have no counter essays but which are seriously flawed by themselves.  The lack of substantive response tells me that Bob has made some very good points which are very difficult to argue against.  If you feel otherwise, feel free to submit a counter essay, or even respond substantively, if you so wish.

Love the passive-aggressive swipe, Rich.    The most responded to essays are the ones that touch a nerve with a core group of nutjobs in the mid-Atlantic States, and their friends here and abroad.    If they have anything substantive and verifiable to say, I haven't seen it yet. 

_____________________________
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Part IV - Crane in the Golden Age
« Reply #21 on: August 20, 2009, 09:56:50 PM »
Bob,

I very much enjoyed your essay and thank you for posting it.   I especially appreciate how well you put Behr's writings in their proper context.  He is a bit difficult to comprehend, but reading him with the Crane debate in mind clarifies his position on a number of points.   And the debate still very much rages on.

I do wonder, though, if perhaps in presenting Crane you give him a bit too much of the benefit of the doubt, and are a bit too dismissive of Behr's arguments (as well as MacKenzie's and others) as creating "strawman caricatures" of Crane's position?   In my mind the Penal vs. Strategic distinction, if accurately understood, hits on something fundamental about different ways to view golf architecture.    Where I think Behr and MacKenzie and Macdonald and others fundamentally differed with Crane wasn't with the severity of hazards, but was rather with the proper role of hazards and other features in the first place.   After all, whether you call it the Penal school, the CPP school, or the Equitable school, wasn't Crane talking about using the features of the golf course to punish what Crane considered bad shots?  And the worse the shot the worse the punishment?      

You state that calling his approach penal distorted his real purpose, which was to distinguish between good shots and bad:

For Crane and others the point wasn’t simply to punish missed shots. It’s not a matter of retribution. Rather, the idea was that missed shots needed to be punished because that is the best way to reward good shots. And vice versa.  That is, if you didn’t impose “controls” on shots, there was no equitable way to sort out good from bad play.

Setting aside the flaws in Crane's premise that there was a need to further distinguish good play from bad (as if bad play wasn't itself punishment) his methodology was penal in nature.  In any penal system punishment is almost never the end goal but instead is almost always a means to an end, whether that end be rehabilitation, general or specific deterrence, or simply the separation of criminals from the rest of us.

Also, Crane uses the term "Control" but to connote two related but sometimes conflicting concepts.  The first is the "control" that the golfer may or may not have over his golf game.   The second is the "control" that the golf course supposedly places on the player.   The problem is that because most players have limited control over their golf game, the concept of the golf course placing a "control" on the player is largely a fiction.  No matter how many bunkers or how much rough, no golfer can always control whether or not the golfer hits the middle of the fairway.   At least I know I can't.   So rough and fairway bunkers don't really control much of anything, do they?   At most they might control where the golfer would like his ball to go.  And when used as Crane suggests, isn't the real function of these features is not to control the shot, but to magnify the negative consequences of not hitting the ball as Crane would view as ideal?

In short, I guess when I read your articulate description of Control, Proportionality, and Predictability I cannot help but think it reads a bit like an essay describing a well run penal or criminal justice system, with many of the same goals and rationals.

Again Bob, I really enjoyed the Essays and thank you for posting them.   I have quite a few more thoughts and comments that hopefully will come later.

DM
« Last Edit: August 20, 2009, 10:02:27 PM by DMoriarty »
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Part IV - Crane in the Golden Age
« Reply #22 on: August 21, 2009, 06:20:13 AM »
Bob
Do you have any idea how Crane came to Croome's attention? He was virtually unknown outside Boston and was certainly not a well known figure in the US. Why would Croome give this virtually unknown (and inexperienced) American a platform...in a British magazine no less?

BCrosby

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Part IV - Crane in the Golden Age
« Reply #23 on: August 21, 2009, 08:38:30 AM »
David - Thanks for the comments. Your statement:

"Where I think Behr and MacKenzie and Macdonald and others fundamentally differed with Crane wasn't with the severity of hazards, but was rather with the proper role of hazards and other features in the first place."

.. is correct. If you thought my point was something different, you might relook at those parts of my piece.

Tom -

Crane played regularly in international senior golf tournaments. He was very wealthy and had homes at different times in London, Paris and Provence. Based on the datings on his rating charts, it looks like he had been making the rounds of courses in the UK in the early '20's, though I don't have any hard dates. Crane travelled in high circles, both in the US and the UK. Being asked to join the Conversation Club was a very big deal, a New York based club. Crane was on several Lesley Cup teams, I think he was captain of the Boston team at one point. He got around. He also yachted, played polo and tennis in internationinal competitions. To say Crane was only kown in Boston is what it means to miss the ball about Crane's life. 

Field Magazine was a high Tory gentleman's magazine. Croome would not have invited Crane to do a long running series (it ended up going on for more than three years) on his theories of golf architecture and course ratings without Crane having already been a well established figure in golf circles in Britain at the time.

For example, Croome felt no need to introduce Crane to the Field readers when Crane's first piece appeared on his anaylysis of golf design. Which suggests that Crane already had some sort of standing with the horse and brandy set. Equally interesting is that when Field interviewed Colt, MacKenzie and Abercromby about Crane's views (they were actually interviewed twice about Crane), they all seemed to be familiar with his ideas and took those ideas very seriously. Indeed, Abercromby and MacKenzie both submitted to Field a couple weeks after the first interviews drawings of their proposed changes to the 1st and 18th holes at TOC, in both cases in reponse to Crane's ideas.

But sheesh, Tom, since you think the Crane debates were a minor sideshow, I'm surprised you don't have other things to spend your valuable time on.

Bob 
 

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Part IV - Crane in the Golden Age
« Reply #24 on: August 21, 2009, 09:54:04 AM »
Bob
Crane did not begin playing in senior events in the UK until later in the 1920s. I don't believe he had even played golf in the UK in 1924.

That being the case it begs the question how did this connection between Crane and Croome come about.