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Jordan Wall

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Wasn't gonna do this...but I need to express some joy. CPC
« on: August 10, 2009, 01:26:33 PM »
This summer I was granted access to heaven.  At least, as a social worker.  I was fortunate enough to spend this summer caddying at Cypress Point.  I feel like you guys would be the best ones to talk and share this with as you are probably the only people who can realize how fantastic and rare such an oppurtunity is.

I just wanted to share some things I learned this summer.

This summer I learned that really great golf courses are head and shoulders better than really good golf courses.  It was unbelievable how I looked at Spyglass, and even Pebble, after spending time at Cypress.  I have to put forth some sort of apology to Matt Ward regarding hism opinions to Pebble Beach, because after seeing and experiencing a couple truly great designs, I can much better relate to what he is saying.  The point is, is that seeing a couple truly great courses like Riviera and Cypress (just to name a couple) really puts other courses into perspective.  It was astounding how good Cypress was, not just the ocean holes, but every hole.  Everything was unique, original, stunning, fantastic, and head and shoulder, and it opened my eyes to what a truly great golf course is.  Riviera had that same effect on me.

Cypress also taught me how greens don't have to present bold, huge contours to be efficient and work so well.  Cypress has four greens (5, 8, 9, and 13) with big contours, and thats it.  The rest of the greens are just sloped, sometimes brutally, but they force precision to every shot and make the round altogether a lot more fun.  And I loved that.  I loved the fact I could have wedge in my hand on almost every hole, and still have the thought in the back of my head that if I put it on the wrong spot on the green I'm done for.  It's just good design, and in my opinion a very good way to challenge players.

The par-5's at Cypress Point were something out of this world.  While pehaps overlooked in most evaluations of the course, they were so good.  The cape tee shot on two is really good.  The hill up to that fairway cannot be described by anything except first hand experience.  It's just really steep.  But, each hole is unique and wonderful.  The bunkering on the fifth is probably my favorite on the entire golf course.  And it's extraordinary, really, how they fit so perfectly with the surrounds, as if they were just meant to be there.  The tee shot on the sixth is one of a kind; perhaps it's best desrcibed in incredibly unique, with emphasis on incredible.  And even ten, which some call the weakest hole on the course, is great in my book.  The tee shot next to the big dune, down the hill to a broad fairway is so fun to hit.  And that green is one to watch for.  I don't want to blab, but the par-5's really are out of this world.

The sixth and eleventh greens alone are worthy of a trip to Cypress.  It's almost unreal, but the greens are allmost flat, as in the front edge of the green is at the same level as the back.  Yet, you could stare at them, up close and personal, for as long as you want and still never get that.  It's supreme visual deception.  And that feature alone really allowed me to appreciate that I got to caddy and not just spend one round at Cypress.  Because I really got to enjoy and understand the genius that can be overlooked in one round.

I could blab for hours but really I just wanted to spark some discussion.  As mentioned, you guys are perhaps the only ones who might understand how exciting a summer I had.  And I just wanted to take some time to share about it, becauseI just really want to.  It's too great NOT to share about it.

Questions, comments, whatever, I'm all ears.

Cheers,
Jordan

PS - Tim Bert you will get your hat, I have not been avoiding you.  Some trouble at home has distracted me but you will get it!!
 :)

Tom Huckaby

Re: Wasn't gonna do this...but I need to express some joy. CPC
« Reply #1 on: August 10, 2009, 01:30:49 PM »
That's all great stuff, Jordan.

But are we talking design, or are we talking golf courses?

If the former, I can't opine - I don't do it as a profession nor care enough about it to warrant an opinion.

But if the latter, well... I sure don't see Cypress Point as all that much of a superior golf course to Pebble Beach.  The joy each gives in the playing is in fact a little different, but of the same quality - at least to me.  Would you disagree?

Thus I sure as helll offer no apologies to Pebble Beach nay-sayers like Matt Ward.  And if you really think his take was about the design, man you have drunk far too deeply from his kool-aid.

 ;D

Jordan Wall

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Wasn't gonna do this...but I need to express some joy. CPC
« Reply #2 on: August 10, 2009, 01:41:05 PM »
Tom, here's my take in Pebble.  I do believe it to be a great golf course.

However, after spending so much time at Cypress, I got to see 18 truly great holes all work together to form an almost perfect golf course.  Pebble doesn't have that.  Pebble has many great holes, but it does lack in some places.  While I still hold strong that I like the twelfth, holes like the first and second really stood out to me as dragging the course down, at least from the perspective of the entire golf course.  Even the fifteenth wasn't great.  Not bad, but when speaking of the best in the world, that counts to me as enough of a difference to put Cypress well above Pebble. 

And I'm not saying I agree fully with Matt, just that I understand his point of view instead of shunning it and being a little girl about it.  I just respect his opinion now, and looking back I wish I would have taken more time to really think about his opinions.

Oh, and I think we are talking about design, good sir.  In the context of Cypress, I think perfect design fits the bill quite well.
 ;)

Tom Huckaby

Re: Wasn't gonna do this...but I need to express some joy. CPC
« Reply #3 on: August 10, 2009, 01:48:37 PM »
Well, you may be talking about design. I am sure not.

As for the rest... well.... it depends on how one's opinion is stated as to how it should be taken.  Oh certainly all should be considered.  But when some go to extremes as to be more denigrating than anything carefully considered, well... the consideration in return should be equal.

As for the two courses, we shall have to agree to disagree.  I cannot put Cypress as "well above" Pebble Beach.  BOTH are fantastic as I see things.  Call Cypress "slightly better on the overall" and we shall have no quibbles - I can live with that.  But you also now seem to be falling into the same trap as so many others concerning Pebble Beach... you are seeming to see only what you want to call "weak" holes and not considering how they fit into the whole of the course.  You do this for Cypress but want to dismiss it for Pebble.  That to me seems odd.

But to each his own....

And in any case, let's make this more about the joy of seeing Cypress many times rather than yet again going down the tired "___ is better than Pebble" road.

So how about we start over....

Question for you:  what hole surprised you the most over time as being better than advertised?  Or worse?

For me - having been lucky to play it quite a few times over the years....

Better:  11.  OK, that does get cited as being great, at least by those in here.  But still.. that is one very very strong golf hole.  And besides being very tough, it's beautiful, fun, requires strategic choices... I just love it more each play.

Worse:  7.  And it's not that it's a bad golf hole - far far far from that.  It's just that of all the holes there, that screams out Spyglass the most to me.. that is, one way and one way only to play it, and exceedingly penal once one misses the green.

Whaddya think?
« Last Edit: August 10, 2009, 02:06:14 PM by Tom Huckaby »

Jordan Wall

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Wasn't gonna do this...but I need to express some joy. CPC
« Reply #4 on: August 10, 2009, 02:03:12 PM »
Tom, not true.  Take the first two holes at Pebble.  They've changed the first green to where a bunker wraps around the whole thing and the green is now a bog oval.  It used to be a unique shape with a chipping area laft and now it is a lot more bland.  The second hole now has new trees that tighten the fairway immensely directly in front of the cave bunker and it looks horrendous.

Remember though, as I stated, I am talking about Pebble as being one of the best in the world.  Thus, when comparing it to Cypress, which in my opinion has noweaknesses, I think those factors are important because they differentiate the two courses.  And, I am only bringing them up as a represntation of how good Cypress is, not how bad Pebble is.  Because, as mentioned Pebble is great.  Just not Cypress great.

The only marginal part of Cypress is the eighteenth hole, and I don't even mind it.  It's nothing great, spectacular, extraordinary or whatever, and yes it probably could have been designed differently but I like it because it's one of a kind and forces you to hit two good shots.  To me the hole is not a weakness although something different and perhaps better could have been produced.  But with regards to that, I'm sure the good doctor knew what he was doing.

Tom Huckaby

Re: Wasn't gonna do this...but I need to express some joy. CPC
« Reply #5 on: August 10, 2009, 02:08:21 PM »
Jordan - I modified my postl - let's getting off critiquing Pebble as no good can come from that.  I know all about the current changes, and you're never gonna get me to rip it too much.  It's still a great golf course by me and always will be (I hope).  So you now see Cypress as better - fantastic, most people do.  But to put it in a wholly different class as you seemed to, well... I am never gonna buy that.

SO. read my modified post.. which CPC holes did you come to see as better, or worse?


Joel_Stewart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Wasn't gonna do this...but I need to express some joy. CPC
« Reply #6 on: August 10, 2009, 02:14:06 PM »

This summer I learned that really great golf courses are head and shoulders better than really good golf courses. 

I also believe this.  In the US there are the top 7 or 8 courses and then everything else.

Jordan:

You should ask some CPC members if they like Cypress or Pebble better.   I think the answer would surprise you.

Tom Huckaby

Re: Wasn't gonna do this...but I need to express some joy. CPC
« Reply #7 on: August 10, 2009, 02:17:08 PM »
Or he could ask a certain man who's made Cypress dreams come true for people... the answer there might surprise young Jordan also.

 ;D

But Joel, do you really see a huge drop-off after 7 or 8?  Man I can get to 50 before it starts getting really noticeable.... but then again I quite obviously nit-pick less than most in here.

 ;D ;D

K. Krahenbuhl

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Re: Wasn't gonna do this...but I need to express some joy. CPC
« Reply #8 on: August 10, 2009, 02:19:38 PM »

This summer I learned that really great golf courses are head and shoulders better than really good golf courses.

I also believe this.  In the US there are the top 7 or 8 courses and then everything else.

Jordan:

You should ask some CPC members if they like Cypress or Pebble better.   I think the answer would surprise you.

Joel,

Would you mind sharing which courses are at that top level...I'm curious as to your thoughts.

Jordan,

That sounds like a great way to spend the summer.  I'm glad you enjoyed it as much as you should have.
« Last Edit: August 10, 2009, 02:22:26 PM by Kyle Krahenbuhl »

Mark Pritchett

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Re: Wasn't gonna do this...but I need to express some joy. CPC
« Reply #9 on: August 10, 2009, 02:22:01 PM »
Jordan,

Thanks for sharing your experiences at CPC with us.  Sounds like a great way to spend a summer!

Mark

Jed Peters

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Re: Wasn't gonna do this...but I need to express some joy. CPC
« Reply #10 on: August 10, 2009, 02:24:24 PM »
I'm sorry, but there is also something about playing pebble that CPC doesn't have--I mean, it's friggin' PEBBLE after all.

That course (Pebble) made my hands shake on the first tee--something that CPC didn't do--CPC was just "comfortable", where as pebble was nerve-racking, something I'd imagine Augusta and St. Andrews would do to me as well.

As a course/design--to me CPC has no equal that I've played.

As an experience--to me Pebble has no equal that I've played.

PCCraig

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Wasn't gonna do this...but I need to express some joy. CPC
« Reply #11 on: August 10, 2009, 02:25:57 PM »
There is no better way to learn and understand a great golf course (and in the process learning about great GCA) than caddying at the course on a daily basis. You end up knowing the course better than many members!

Cool experience Jordan...
H.P.S.

Tom Huckaby

Re: Wasn't gonna do this...but I need to express some joy. CPC
« Reply #12 on: August 10, 2009, 02:29:44 PM »
That's part of if, Jed.

Pebble has ghosts that Cypress never will.

But again, better to just stick to praising Cypress.  And those last two lines.. whoo boy... I figured you actually played the game, not studied its venues outside of how they play.

 ;D

David Stamm

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Re: Wasn't gonna do this...but I need to express some joy. CPC
« Reply #13 on: August 10, 2009, 02:52:40 PM »

That course (Pebble) made my hands shake on the first tee--something that CPC didn't do--CPC was just "comfortable", where as pebble was nerve-racking, 
 

I wonder if the fare at Pebble had something to do with that? ;)


CPC is comfortable. Well said.


Jordan, it's great watching your taste of golf courses develop. I agree with everything you have to say about the course and the comparison and I'm with you, CPC and Riviera are my fav's as well.

"The object of golf architecture is to give an intelligent purpose to the striking of a golf ball."- Max Behr

Sean Leary

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Wasn't gonna do this...but I need to express some joy. CPC
« Reply #14 on: August 10, 2009, 02:58:12 PM »
Tom, here's my take in Pebble.  I do believe it to be a great golf course.

However, after spending so much time at Cypress, I got to see 18 truly great holes all work together to form an almost perfect golf course.  Pebble doesn't have that.  Pebble has many great holes, but it does lack in some places.  While I still hold strong that I like the twelfth, holes like the first and second really stood out to me as dragging the course down, at least from the perspective of the entire golf course.  Even the fifteenth wasn't great.  Not bad, but when speaking of the best in the world, that counts to me as enough of a difference to put Cypress well above Pebble. 

And I'm not saying I agree fully with Matt, just that I understand his point of view instead of shunning it and being a little girl about it.  I just respect his opinion now, and looking back I wish I would have taken more time to really think about his opinions.

Oh, and I think we are talking about design, good sir.  In the context of Cypress, I think perfect design fits the bill quite well.
 ;)

Do you think that if you spent as much time at PB as you did at Cypress that you might feel differently. I would bet that you would have a greater appreciation for the "weaker holes" at Pebble if you had a lot of time there.

Adam Clayman

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Re: Wasn't gonna do this...but I need to express some joy. CPC
« Reply #15 on: August 10, 2009, 03:07:03 PM »
Jordan. Next summer Caddie @ PB. Then further opine.
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Jordan Wall

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Wasn't gonna do this...but I need to express some joy. CPC
« Reply #16 on: August 10, 2009, 03:14:13 PM »
Kyle,

From what I've seen and played, only Riviera and CPC reach that top level.  Olympic Club and Pebble Beach are one step below for comparison, while still both being really good golf courses.

Tom,

My favorite hole at Cypress is probably four.  It's hard to choose but it's hardly talked about and yet it blows me away every time.  the visual deception, how much differently it plays depending on the wind, and the wonderful green make it easily one of my favorites, and probably my personal favorite.  Again it's really hard to choose.

As far as holes that had the opposite effect, it's really hard to say.  Each hole is so unique with something special about it that it's really hard to pick one that wasn't as good as I thought.  And honestly, I didn't even really know what I thought in the first place.  Any preconceived notions I had were blown away in mass proportion.

Sean,

You're probably right.  However, I did spend a good deal of time at Pebble.  I don't dismiss it as a great golf course.  But when you play Cypress I'd be curious to hear how you compare the two courses.  I believe you'd understand.

Joel,

That would be interesting.  Did you get my message the other day?  Hope all is well, it was great meeting you this summer!


Jordan Wall

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Wasn't gonna do this...but I need to express some joy. CPC
« Reply #17 on: August 10, 2009, 03:16:03 PM »
Questions, comments, whatever, I'm all ears.

Cheers,
Jordan


Ok, I assume you got plenty of caddie play....so, how many times did you opt for the exhilarating lay-up to the Isthmus of Moriarity on #16?  ;)

Dave, I hit the green and made par time every time I played it.  In the employee tournament I went for 17, going straight downwind from the 373 tees (shorter as the crow flies), and hit the top of the rocks.  Another foot and I would have had an eagle putt.

I also want to throw out that I have played the course in many conditions.  The first time I played sixteen I hit driver right at the pin and almost made birdie.  There was one time I hit three wood as well.  I can't fathom getting an iron to the green from 235, even downwind.  Just too much for me.

I think the best playing memory was my first round out there, I wanted to make a birdie really bad.  I began on ten, so as to not interfere with the group on the front.  I had broken my wrist and had not swung a club in a few months.  I stepped up, hit two really sloppy shots that somehow left me 98 yards out.  Wedge to three feet, and birdie.  I finished with a birdie on 9 too.

I'm blabbing.  I don't care though.  But just in case anyone is wondering the play on 9 is to the front bunker.  It's the easiest way to get to a back pin and I've birdied it every time I've played it, each time from that front bunker.
« Last Edit: August 10, 2009, 03:22:12 PM by Jordan Wall »

Joel_Stewart

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Re: Wasn't gonna do this...but I need to express some joy. CPC
« Reply #18 on: August 10, 2009, 03:22:25 PM »

But Joel, do you really see a huge drop-off after 7 or 8?  Man I can get to 50 before it starts getting really noticeable.... but then again I quite obviously nit-pick less than most in here.

You're kidding.
Black Rock at #27 and Castle Pines at #28 ends the list or at least the creditability.

The best of the best, the absolute greatest courses in the US, IMHO ends with #7.  They have been there from day 1 and are indisputable as the best.

Pine Valley
Augusta
Shinnecock
Cypress Point
Pebble Beach
Merion
Oakmont

The only 2 that have any chance of being recognized with this bunch is NGLA and Sand Hills and I don't want to argue over them on this thread.  

 

Tom Huckaby

Re: Wasn't gonna do this...but I need to express some joy. CPC
« Reply #19 on: August 10, 2009, 03:49:43 PM »
Joel:

Aha, you mean OUR list.  Good call.  So yes, those you mentioned are in a different world from the top 10.  But man I see Sand Hills as #1 and NGLA as arguably #2.. so I can take all you mentioned (and those are all great), that gets us to 9 total... and I bet if I tried hard I could keep going to 20 before we get too crazy.  So I don't buy your huge drop off after 7 or 8.

Jordan:

Good call re 4, that is a very cool golf hole for sure and it gets little discussion.  But regarding the other side of this...no offense but that is somewhat of a cop out.  Come on my friend.. even if there are 18 perfect holes there (with which I disagree, and bear in mind I see CPC as somewhere around the #3-5 course I have ever played), some holes are best, some are worst.  Give me a worst.  There must be one that got lesser in status over time in your mind.... or if not that, one that ranks #18....

And I believe Adam Clayman gives sage advise vis a vis the other course up the road. 

Good man re 16, btw... glad to read you remain male and under the age of 70.   ;D

Jed Rammell

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Wasn't gonna do this...but I need to express some joy. CPC
« Reply #20 on: August 10, 2009, 03:50:27 PM »
Jordan -

What is it like to caddy for a first timer standing on the 16th tee? That would be fun for me . . . like watching kids run down the stairs for Christmas morning.

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Wasn't gonna do this...but I need to express some joy. CPC
« Reply #21 on: August 10, 2009, 04:30:03 PM »
Great summer job, Jordan.   I spent my first summer away from home working at a Lake Tahoe golf course and living in the employee dormitory.  Actually the male dormitory, there was an adjacent female building.  ;D  It's a great and liberating experience.

You didn't include #4 in your list of contoured greens.  Is that because the slope is generally front to back with some right to left?  I was absolutely astonished on my first playing of that hole by the line the caddy gave me.  I think the putt broke eight feet!

#18 remains the only disappointment to me that day, other than my failure to carry the chasm at #16.  Of course I failed the second CP round as well.

But I have not yielded to the Moriarity dark side - although I might actually have posted a final score if I had - my caddy took off for the green while I was waiting to hit, leaving me only a driver and two Pro V1s.   :'(

Joel_Stewart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Wasn't gonna do this...but I need to express some joy. CPC
« Reply #22 on: August 10, 2009, 04:39:26 PM »
Aha, you mean OUR list.  Good call.  So yes, those you mentioned are in a different world from the top 10.  But man I see Sand Hills as #1 and NGLA as arguably #2.. so I can take all you mentioned (and those are all great), that gets us to 9 total... and I bet if I tried hard I could keep going to 20 before we get too crazy. 

Huck:  Name 1 more that is remotly close to those 9.  There is no way you can get get close to 20 that are still in the same league as Pine Valley or Oakmont unless you go outside the US.


Jordon:  Whats the craziest thing you saw at CPC?   The caddie stories at Shadow Creek are legendary, at least when Steve Wynn was in charge and lived there.  Maybe you should write a book.

Tom Huckaby

Re: Wasn't gonna do this...but I need to express some joy. CPC
« Reply #23 on: August 10, 2009, 04:45:45 PM »
Aha!  A challenge!  Well remember I am already at least one up given the cut-off was initially supposed to be 7 or 8.  SO, playing with a little house money, let's go like this after those mentioned:

Sand Hills
NGLA
Pine Valley
Augusta
Shinnecock
Cypress Point
Pebble Beach
Merion
Oakmont

Seminole
Pinehurst #2
Winged Foot West
Crystal Downs
Pacific Dunes
Fishers Island
Prairie Dunes
Olympic Lake
SFGC
LA North
Kiawah Ocean

That's enough.  I'd say all of those are at least in the same ballpark as the top 9.. or at least I do not see a huge drop off.  I expect you to disagree... but well... you'll be wrong.

 ;D ;D ;D


Jordan Wall

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Wasn't gonna do this...but I need to express some joy. CPC
« Reply #24 on: August 10, 2009, 04:52:08 PM »
Tom,

It would be 18.  Its the only hole not truly great on the course in my eyes.  Actually, the first hole isn't out of this world either but I love the green benched into the dune and the tee shot.

Jeff,

The word surreal would suffice.  Just incredible!

Joel,

My first round caddying out there, I was with another caddy they call Saint.  On the eighteenth, one of his guys is under a tree and on his knees hitting a chip to the green.  Nobody was really paying attention and he loudly says "heads up, everybody".  Saint turns to him and says, "no sir, you keep your head down", and with a straight face.  Cracked everyone up.

There are other ones too but my first round out there, that just set a good mood for the rest of the summer.  Lots of fun out there.

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