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Kevin Pallier

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: USA (The Final Frontier)
« Reply #25 on: August 15, 2009, 12:37:00 AM »
Ed

Thanks for the advice - likewise - I look forward to seeing you again in the US.

KennyB

It is indeed a "trip of a lifetime" - a lot of time has gone and continues to go into it. Cant wait for October to roll around.

Am interested as to why you've raised the Ohio region over say the Colorado region ? Can you expand on your thoughts re: the area ?
« Last Edit: August 15, 2009, 12:56:40 AM by Kevin Pallier »

ed_getka

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: USA (The Final Frontier)
« Reply #26 on: August 15, 2009, 07:33:00 AM »
Kevin,
    I've been thinking of some other architects for you to check out. Galloway National seems to be a Fazio that comes up regularly as an excellent course. I haven't been up to see the work (rained out on my last attempt) but Kelly Blake Moran has some courses in the Philadelphia area that are in your area of travels. I would touch base with Mike Malone, Mike Cirba, or one of the Philadelphia area guys for advice on that. Gil Hanse has some work in the northeast, but I don't know if any of it is public. Good luck with the planning.
"Perimeter-weighted fairways", The best euphemism for containment mounding I've ever heard.

Kevin Pallier

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: USA (The Final Frontier)
« Reply #27 on: August 15, 2009, 11:42:30 AM »
Ed

You've highligted something that I've been thinking about of late: re: "Modern" US designers - other than C&C and Doak.

I'm going to see if I can slot in a Fazio / Rees Jones or possibly a Dye course in somewhere ?

I've already seen Dye's work at TPC in Florida and I should see a DMK design at Bandon. Weiskopf & Morrish I've already seen already in Scotland. Cheers for the ideas.
 

ed_getka

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: USA (The Final Frontier)
« Reply #28 on: August 15, 2009, 01:03:23 PM »
I looked up Galloway just to be sure it was  Fazio, and it is, but it is private. Sorry.

I'll have to try and remember to look at Joel Zuckerman's Pete Dye book to see what he has in the northeast.
"Perimeter-weighted fairways", The best euphemism for containment mounding I've ever heard.

Jason McNamara

Re: USA (The Final Frontier)
« Reply #29 on: August 15, 2009, 02:21:38 PM »
I'll have to try and remember to look at Joel Zuckerman's Pete Dye book to see what he has in the northeast.

That's out-and-out Pete?  Just the new "please win the lottery first" Pound Ridge, right?  (I don't know enough about Wintonbury Hills to say.)

There's Bulle Rock, but I think Baltimore is farther south than Kevin wants to go.

Another option would be Pete Dye GC (private), but that's still a decent detour off the the Philly-Chicago drive.  At that point, you may as well try for Crooked Stick or The Golf Club.

Nemacolin doesn't get any love here, but it's public and on the way.  Plus it's minutes from FLW's masterpiece Fallingwater.  On second thought, Baltimore is not really a huge detour, so play Bulle Rock, and -then- see Fallingwater anyway.

NB:  I have no idea what the season is for any of these places.
« Last Edit: August 15, 2009, 02:24:14 PM by Jason McNamara »

Kenny Baer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: USA (The Final Frontier)
« Reply #30 on: August 18, 2009, 02:03:17 PM »
Ed

Thanks for the advice - likewise - I look forward to seeing you again in the US.

KennyB

It is indeed a "trip of a lifetime" - a lot of time has gone and continues to go into it. Cant wait for October to roll around.

Am interested as to why you've raised the Ohio region over say the Colorado region ? Can you expand on your thoughts re: the area ?

Kevin,

There is no comparison; the state of Ohio is within the top 3 states for golf arch and golf course quality by most everyone's estimation, the top 5 by everyone's estimation.  Colorado is.....fine sure, they have good courses just like every state in our union has good courses; but they have nothing like the city of Columbus, OH which has 4 of the top 100 golf courses located within 10 miles of each other, each by a different arch. Less than 2 hrs away is Inverness, Camargo, the list goes on and on.  Just look at the Courses by Country section,   I have actually never heard anyone boast about the quality of Colorado golf compared to any other state; particularly in October. 

Can you tell us more about your trip? 
I was under the assumption that you were trying to study the best of American arch in a 3 week period; is that the point of your trip, are you also trying to see the sights or is it mainly about golf?  If it is about golf then DO NOT GO TO VEGAS.

In 3 weeks I would suggest these cities

NYC - Long Island (Many many courses to choose from)
Philly (many to choose from)
Columbus, OH (many to choose from)
San Francisco, CA (many to choose from)

The other places I see people suggesting are hard to understand; Baltimore...., Vegas, Denver.  Not that any of those places do not have a course or 2 that is worth studying but the guy is trying to expierence the BEST that we have to offer in 3 weeks.

You really need to be writing letters and writing them until you hear an answer; I honestly believe that you can find access to even the most "exclusive" clubs with enough persistence.  1 Letter will not do most likely. 

ed_getka

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: USA (The Final Frontier)
« Reply #31 on: August 18, 2009, 04:34:36 PM »
Kenny,
    Kevin has been hard at work with the letter writing campaign and it has gone surprisingly well. I think coming up from Australia helps as he is obviously viewed as having a serious interest in golf course architecture. I met Kevin when I traveled down to Australia/New Zealand a few years ago and we had a great day at New South Wales via the kindness of Terry Thornton. Kevin has an impressive understanding of golf course architecture and we had some enjoyable conversations.
   
"Perimeter-weighted fairways", The best euphemism for containment mounding I've ever heard.

Kevin Pallier

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: USA (The Final Frontier)
« Reply #32 on: August 19, 2009, 08:50:18 AM »
Kevin,

There is no comparison; the state of Ohio is within the top 3 states for golf arch and golf course quality by most everyone's estimation, the top 5 by everyone's estimation.  Colorado is.....fine sure, they have good courses just like every state in our union has good courses; but they have nothing like the city of Columbus, OH which has 4 of the top 100 golf courses located within 10 miles of each other, each by a different arch. I have actually never heard anyone boast about the quality of Colorado golf compared to any other state; particularly in October.  

Kenny

I appreciate your thoughts on Ohio – I chose the Colorado / Nebraska region as one area for study primarily for the reported high degree of modern architecture that has come out of the region over the last 15 years or so. Even then it will be a very short visit – but the rugged terrain out there looks absolutely awesome !!

I realise logistically I’m causing myself a lot of angst in trying to cover a number of regions and it would be much easier if I remained in just one and sought out different architectural works. But I like “hard work” and I certainly see this as a “once” in a life-time opportunity hence the effort, resources and funds that are being put into it.

Can you tell us more about your trip?  

The trip is literally my “Final Frontier” from a golf course study POV. I’ve spent the greater part of 20 years traversing all over Australia viewing and studying the “best” works in my homeland: particularly those on the Sandbelt - where easily - the greatest golf courses in Australia are.

I then moved to the UK where I lived for a number of years and spent as much time as I could traversing all over GB&I searching out “great” architectural works by Colt, Mackenzie, Morris, Braid etc. I had a fabulous time seeing some really pure layouts and really do miss the “links”.

However - to put what I’ve seen to date in “a global perspective” I just have to see what I’ve read about in World Atlas of Golf all these years. I’m aiming to see a cross-section of “modern” v “classic” designs and I’ve heard a lot about what a team like Coore and Crenshaw have done overseas. Fingers crossed - we may get a Coore course in Tasmania in a few years time to complement some nice work by a couple of gentlemen named Doak and Clayton  ;)

Another side of the visit I’m really looking forward to is meeting some US GCAers and learning from you about your courses and architects. I really do wish to put some faces to names I’ve read about on GCA for the past few years. I’ve met some mighty fine fellow GCAers based in Australia who post here and people like Ed and David who visited "down under". I’m sure I’ll have a great time and some wonderfull experiences and lifelong friends out of my trip to the US.

I’ve been in contact with a few guys who have sent me an IM and certainly appreciate same – I’m looking forward to meeting you. I’ve also been very busy in the background writing letters and faxes etc and despite some difficulties have found some clubs and staff to be more than accommodating under the circumstances. Some I'm really struggling with but that is what makes the effort all the more enjoyable.

I was under the assumption that you were trying to study the best of American arch in a 3 week period; is that the point of your trip, are you also trying to see the sights or is it mainly about golf?  If it is about golf then DO NOT GO TO VEGAS.

This trip is purely golf course study related. I know Matt Day and I know he is pulling my leg re: Vegas  ;D

In 3 weeks I would suggest these cities

NYC - Long Island (Many many courses to choose from)
Philly (many to choose from)
Columbus, OH (many to choose from)
San Francisco, CA (many to choose from)
 

Your cities closely align to what I’m trying to see…...ideally I’d like to have another week as your country has so much to see - but the reality is what it is.
« Last Edit: August 19, 2009, 09:00:29 AM by Kevin Pallier »

ed_getka

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: USA (The Final Frontier)
« Reply #33 on: August 19, 2009, 10:53:07 PM »
Another week? Try another 3 months!! :) You won't see everything worth seeing, but so far your trip is shaping up to give you a great taste of of what we have here in the US.
   As the itinerary firms up we'll have to try and get a group together for dinner so you can put some more faces to the names.
"Perimeter-weighted fairways", The best euphemism for containment mounding I've ever heard.

Kevin Pallier

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: USA (The Final Frontier)
« Reply #34 on: August 19, 2009, 11:54:09 PM »
Ed

Glad to see you cottoned onto it. Whilst my initials are KP.....I'm nothing like our famous Kerry Packer (RIP)

 :)

Kevin Pallier

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: USA (The Final Frontier)
« Reply #35 on: August 21, 2009, 10:09:45 PM »
Whilst the most important part of the trip looks like it's almost sorted (ie: the golf). Could I possibly ask the panel of experts that is GCA for recommendations on places to stay at the following locations:

- Long Island ?
- New Jersey SE ?
- Philadelphia ?
- Monterey ?

Also - any ideas as to what would be the best route to get to Oregon (Bandon) from the Monterey region ? I presume a drive back to San Fran. and a flight from there ?

Jason McNamara

Re: USA (The Final Frontier)
« Reply #36 on: August 22, 2009, 12:55:52 PM »
Also - any ideas as to what would be the best route to get to Oregon (Bandon) from the Monterey region ? I presume a drive back to San Fran. and a flight from there ?

Just to offer another option, you could take the train overnight from Salinas (right outside Monterey, depart 6:30 pm) up to Klamath Falls (arrive 8:30 am), then drive over.  Still a four-plus-hour drive from Klamath Falls, but you have daylight until 6:30 (twilight until 7, if it's sunny) on Oct 15th.
http://www.amtrak.com/timetable/may09/P11.pdf

I suspect it's not as cool as the Indian-Pacific, and it does not go along the coast.  But if you like trains, one sleeper car could be a better deal than two airline tix.

Kevin Pallier

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: USA (The Final Frontier)
« Reply #37 on: August 23, 2009, 07:31:42 PM »
Thanks for that Jason - that was something I was never aware of.

Kevin Pallier

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: USA (The Final Frontier)
« Reply #38 on: August 26, 2009, 07:57:49 PM »
Thanks Mike Sweeney for your email with suggestions - much obliged

Can anyone assist re: accommodation recommendations in / around Monterey + the other regions ?

I will be traveliing by myself and will not require anything too elaborate as my needs aren't as elaborate as "my bosses"  :D

ed_getka

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: USA (The Final Frontier)
« Reply #39 on: August 27, 2009, 07:47:37 AM »
There is a place in Pacific Grove that is a good location for the places you will be playing and the rooms are reasonable. I can't remember the name off the top of my head, but Ash Towe and James Bennett have stayed there in the past. I will get back to you.
"Perimeter-weighted fairways", The best euphemism for containment mounding I've ever heard.

ed_getka

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: USA (The Final Frontier)
« Reply #40 on: August 27, 2009, 08:45:12 AM »
Kevin,
   Olympia Motor Lodge in Pacific Grove is the one. My friend Ron lives right next door and has one of the greatest golf book collections in the world if you are interested in taking a look.
"Perimeter-weighted fairways", The best euphemism for containment mounding I've ever heard.

Ash Towe

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: USA (The Final Frontier)
« Reply #41 on: August 27, 2009, 02:59:30 PM »
Kevin,

The accomodation that Ed suggested for Monterey is more than adequate.  Its situation in relation to the golf courses could not be better.
Ron's book collection is amazing.

K. Krahenbuhl

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: USA (The Final Frontier)
« Reply #42 on: August 27, 2009, 03:58:27 PM »
I've had good luck here http://www.enclaveinn.com/southhampton.shtml while on Long Island.  Very close to the golf in Southampton.  Reasonably priced and adequate. 

Kevin Pallier

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: USA (The Final Frontier)
« Reply #43 on: August 27, 2009, 07:41:51 PM »
Ed / Ash

Thanks for the note re: the accommodation in Pacific Grove will look into it. Ed - I am a golf book nut so will definitely call into have a cup of tea with Ron (could you please pass on his details ?)

Dave

The offer is tempting - though I will have to pass in this instance - isn't it colder at that time of year ? . A trip to Chicago to pay homeage to MJ's legacy and to partake in a round at Jans National will have to wait for another time

Kyle

Thanks for that - that may be close to what I am looking for.

If GCAers have any other suggestions for Long Island ? + suggestions specifically near the following areas would be gratefully recieved eg:
- SE New Jersey
- around Ardmore / Newtown Sqquare (PA)
- near Mamaroneck (NY)
- NYC itself (will be there for a few days beforehand sightseeing)
- around Daly City (San Francisco) ?
- near Pasatiempo ?

Thanks
KP

James Bennett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: USA (The Final Frontier)
« Reply #44 on: August 28, 2009, 01:44:45 AM »
Kevin

near Pasatiempo - stay at Pacific Grove.  Ed's knowledge beat me to it - that is the place.  You will need more than one cup of tea if you visit Ron M...... (alphabet).

In Philly, I stayed near Valley Forge which was 'central' to where I needed to go.  Next to the shopping centre.  Check expedia.com or similar with Valley Forge and Philadelphia.  Average location, but central to your needs.

You know the rest.

James B
Bob; its impossible to explain some of the clutter that gets recalled from the attic between my ears. .  (SL Solow)

Kevin Pallier

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: USA (The Final Frontier)
« Reply #45 on: August 29, 2009, 10:04:19 AM »
I looked up Galloway just to be sure it was  Fazio, and it is, but it is private. Sorry.

I'll have to try and remember to look at Joel Zuckerman's Pete Dye book to see what he has in the northeast.

Ed

I've been in contact with Galloway National and it looks somewhat positive on that front. How does it compare with other Fazio designs ?

As a side note - how would it as a course compare with say Ross' Plainfield ? or Tlillinghast's Baltusrol in the Jersey region ?


ed_getka

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: USA (The Final Frontier)
« Reply #46 on: August 29, 2009, 04:03:52 PM »
Kevin,
    Given you are going to see a great Tillinghast already, and Fazio is lacking in your portfolio I would check out Galloway before Baltusrol. I have not played either Galloway or Baltusrol, but I have heard good things about Galloway. I have walked all of Baltusrol's 36 holes and if you do decide to go that way I would pay particular attention to the middle section of the Upper course which I thought was the most interesting stretch on the property.
     If I had to choose between the 3 you mention it is Plainfield hands down. Plainfield remains one of the underappreciated gems of American golf.
"Perimeter-weighted fairways", The best euphemism for containment mounding I've ever heard.

Andrew Bertram

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: USA (The Final Frontier)
« Reply #47 on: August 30, 2009, 12:06:06 AM »
Kevin

Coming form the sand belt i always look to experience course styles that we simply do not see here and i would highly recommend trying to find time to add Ohio to your itinerary.

The Golf Club
Muirfield Village
Scioto

The Golf Club was extremely worthwhile. Following The Golf Club i droive to Oakmont and from there onto Phildelphia. Not a bad drive.


I played Galloway National last July and agree that it will be more worthwhile than Baltusrol. I was very impressed with the design and enjoyed it very much.

Have a great trip.

Kevin Pallier

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: USA (The Final Frontier)
« Reply #48 on: August 30, 2009, 10:46:05 AM »
Andrew

Kenny B was highlighting the Ohio region to me earlier in the thread. It seems on the face of it a great region and if I had another week I'd probably consider it. Oakmont alas will not be part of this trip and whislt I would have liked to have seen such a design hopefully I will get an appreciation for US Open style venues at other locations throughout the country.

How long was the drive from Pittsburgh to Philadelphia ?

Kevin Pallier

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: USA (The Final Frontier)
« Reply #49 on: September 03, 2009, 04:27:45 AM »
Someone also may be able to assist me with the airlines of America as I dont have much experience re: same

Which is the best /easiest /cheapest way to do the following legs ? I will be seeing a travel agent shortly but if I could get an idea as to how long it takes to do these trips ?

- NJ/PA to Denver ?
- Denver to San Francisco ?
- SF to Oregon ?

Also, how long should one allow to drive from Monterey to LAX Airport ?

Thanks