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John_D._Bernhardt

architect who makes best use of land
« on: April 30, 2002, 11:19:55 AM »
There are several factors that go into what i feel is good architecture. I always look to how the land was utilized, how naturally the holes fit into the land, the use of movement of dirt in a manner which creates a natural flow and of course the routing, are some of them. Which architects do the best job of using the land and creating courses that fit naturally into the landscape they have to work with. We have been making alot of posts about designs which seem the same, no matter where they are and the type of land. Lets look at this from a positie view and talk about good examples of this. Obviously Barona, except for the walkability component, is a great example by Todd E.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Tom MacWood (Guest)

Re: architect who makes best use of land
« Reply #1 on: May 01, 2002, 04:53:23 AM »
The first that comes to mind is Coore and Crenshaw's Sand Hills. Another not far behind is The Golf Club. Kingsley looks like a canidate from the photos.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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David Wigler

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: architect who makes best use of land
« Reply #2 on: May 01, 2002, 05:39:40 AM »
John,

As you well know, I tend to like defined features so this is not my area of expertise.  That written, Crenshaw and Coore are brilliant in their use of natural land contours.  As much as I love Pete Dye (And totally agree with Tom about the Golf Club - Which may be the best use of land and natural features I have ever seen) C&C are more consistently excellent in this regard.  I will refrain from finishing this post with which major architect is the worst at it, but I would venture to guess you know whom I would say.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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And I took full blame then, and retain such now.  My utter ignorance in not trumpeting a course I have never seen remains inexcusable.
Tom Huckaby 2/24/04

John_D._Bernhardt

Re: architect who makes best use of land
« Reply #3 on: May 01, 2002, 07:12:00 AM »
thanks for keeping it on the high road. lol I am curious for I felt coore and chrenshaw would get alot of votes, but who else generally does a great job in this area.
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Three_Putt

Re: architect who makes best use of land
« Reply #4 on: May 01, 2002, 07:40:24 AM »
The work that Crenshaw and Coore have done at Friar's Head is really special in this regard.  It's amazing to see how harmonious the course is with the land - as though it's been there for many years, or, even better, as though the architects dusted off some of these marvelous sand dunes to expose the course itself.   ;D

In one of my recent visits, someone asked me to try and trace the hole lines into the woods / dunes and see if you can find where the hole "ends" and where the woods / dunes "begin."  It was quite challenging, actually.  Although the course is not even open yet, everything looks so settled and mature in terms of the way it blends and bleeds with the site.

I also feel very strongly about the bunker work they've done.  Personally, I cannot stand "hard lines" on golf courses and I really admire the "crumbled and broken" look that C&C have given to the bunkers.   ;)

By way of contrast, if we pick another modern course out on Long Island - say Atlantic - my own take is that Rees Jones just relies too much on his "humps and bumps" to frame each hole.  Additionally, the course appears even more artificial and manufactured to me when I think about his use of bunkers - which I see as completely interchangable and lacking of any distinct character.

But this is not to be critical of Rees as much as it is to applaud C&C for creating a course that marries so well with the existing terrain.  While I recognizing that all this it just a matter of personal preference, C&C's approach just suits my eye better...
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Three_Putt

Re: architect who makes best use of land
« Reply #5 on: May 01, 2002, 07:44:14 AM »
The work that Crenshaw and Coore have done at Friar's Head is really special in this regard.  It's amazing to see how harmonious the course is with the land - as though it's been there for many years, or, even better, as though the architects dusted off some of these marvelous sand dunes to expose the course itself.   ;D

In one of my recent visits, someone asked me to try and trace the hole lines into the woods / dunes and see if you can find where the hole "ends" and where the woods / dunes "begin."  It was quite challenging, actually.  Although the course is not even open yet, everything looks so settled and mature in terms of the way it blends and bleeds with the site.

I also feel very strongly about the bunker work they've done.  Personally, I cannot stand "hard lines" on golf courses and I really admire the "crumbled and broken" look that C&C have given to the bunkers.   ;)

By way of contrast, if we pick another modern course out on Long Island - say Atlantic - my own take is that Rees Jones just relies too much on his "humps and bumps" to frame each hole.  Additionally, the course appears even more artificial and manufactured to me when I think about his use of bunkers - which I see as completely interchangable and lacking of any distinct character.

But this is not to be critical of Rees as much as it is to applaud C&C for creating a course that marries so well with the existing terrain.  While I recognizing that all this it just a matter of personal preference, C&C's approach just suits my eye better...
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Bystander

Re: architect who makes best use of land
« Reply #6 on: May 01, 2002, 08:28:40 AM »
Are there only two guys worthy of this praise?

I'm sure we can come up with more.

Lester George comes to mind.
Kinloch fits onto its site as well as any
course I've ever set foot on--completely
subtle and natural.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: architect who makes best use of land
« Reply #7 on: May 01, 2002, 08:39:11 AM »
Above posters all mention modern day designers.  But, one of the aspects of golden age design was to see how effieciently yet strategically 18 holes of some 6400-6600 yards were laid upon land of less than 150 acres.   I think Ross was great at that.  Mid-Pines, Southern Pines, and so many others featured in books by Klein and Fay are examples of efficient and clever use of land, particularly the ridges and spines that run through them.  Whenever you find a course that is laid on <150 acres without a lot of bells and whistles of framing and containment earthwork, and offers variety and challenge, I think you have a fellow that understands the land.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Three_Putt

Re: architect who makes best use of land
« Reply #8 on: May 01, 2002, 10:15:52 AM »
well said.  i agree with you completely.  did not mean to focus soley on modern design.  i happen to think that ross' work at wannamoiset in RI captures some of your thoughts, too.  ;D
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Patrick_Mucci

Re: architect who makes best use of land
« Reply #9 on: May 01, 2002, 11:04:52 AM »
Three putt,

I too think Friar's Head will be something special, but not just in the golf course, in the practice range and short course as well.  It represents to me, the most complete, quality facility I've ever seen, with nary a detail left out.
I hope, unlike many clubs, that control, and the decision making process remains vested as it is.

With respect to Atlantic, how would you compare the two raw land sites ?

And, how would you compare the environmental constraints, or lack of constraints effecting the design of both golf courses?

With the wonderful fall, winter and spring, Friar's Head should look great, I'm anxious to see and play it in finished form, especially on a windy day.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Dan Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: architect who makes best use of land
« Reply #10 on: May 01, 2002, 11:11:11 AM »
Three_Putt --

How dare you mention Rees Jones?

Didn't you know Patrick was lurking nearby?

Don't you know that any mention of Rees Jones is certain to spark an 80-post back-and-forthathon?

I IMPLORE YOU: DON'T ANSWER ANY QUESTIONS COMPARING FRIAR'S HEAD WITH ATLANTIC!!!!!!

PLEASE!  ;D
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

Three_Putt

Re: architect who makes best use of land
« Reply #11 on: May 01, 2002, 01:04:33 PM »
Dan and Patrick -
Rather than be rude, let me at least acknowledge Pat's reply and questions and then let the matter rest.  I'd hate to turn this into an Atlantic v. Friar's / Rees v. C&C debate.

As for the raw sites, Patrick, I did not see Atlantic back in 1990, 1991 so it is hard for me to make a comparison.  Unquestionably, though, it seems C&C were given a property whose value is unmatched and somewhat unprecedented.  In fairness to Rees, I'm not sure the Atlantic site is nearly as interesting and the areas of wetlands probably dampered some of his plans.

All good things!  ;D
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R.S._Barker

Re: architect who makes best use of land
« Reply #12 on: May 01, 2002, 02:40:40 PM »
I might be off my rocker, but wouldn't C.B. MacDonald qualify for this..one word...NGLA ?.

The reason I think this way, is he stated that " NGLA did not have the proper topography for a Biarritz "..

IF he really wanted to, he could have easily added one there, but yet he did not. Therefore, his use of " what nature gave him " leads me to believe that his work at NGLA is natural, and made him a pretty good judge of land.

Of course, this is just my opinion...and I've been known to be wrong..8)

R.S. Barker
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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John_D._Bernhardt

Re: architect who makes best use of land
« Reply #13 on: May 01, 2002, 02:43:15 PM »
Three Put, you were forwarned. It takes alot of time to get into an exchange, even over nothing and no direct intent to say anything negative about rees, with patrick. Please just slowly back up and repeat Rees is the best architect alive or dead with head slightly bowed. You may get out with a ten or 15 post debate. May the force be with you.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Don_Mahaffey

Re: architect who makes best use of land
« Reply #14 on: May 01, 2002, 03:37:38 PM »
John,
Doak certainly made good use of the land at Apache Stronghold. The course fits the terrain very well and many natural features were left untouched or used to make bunkers which appear very natural. Also a name not heard often here, Ken Kavenaugh (sp) did a course very close to me and I believe it is hands down the best in the immediate area. No framing or containment, just good solid holes which blend well with the land.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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John_D._Bernhardt

Re: architect who makes best use of land
« Reply #15 on: May 01, 2002, 03:39:34 PM »
thanks Don, that is the name of one of the all time great LSU football players. I wonder if he has Louisiana roots.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Patrick_Mucci

Re: architect who makes best use of land
« Reply #16 on: May 01, 2002, 06:02:19 PM »
John Bernhardt,

I thought three putt provided a reasonable answer.

Now back up slowly and repeat "I will not make foolish posts"
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Craig Rokke

Re: architect who makes best use of land
« Reply #17 on: May 01, 2002, 06:46:51 PM »
I think there is a fine line between "making the best use of the land" and inheriting a naturally great site on which to build a course. I have a lot of respect for C & C, but couldn't a lot of architects have come up with a darn good course there in Mullen? Just playing devil's advocate.

I think Hanse's group does a real good job in this area.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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John_D._Bernhardt

Re: architect who makes best use of land
« Reply #18 on: May 01, 2002, 06:52:25 PM »
Never shall I obey the man of unlimited posts! lol One of so many posts might think twice before calling another man's post foolish. I felt it was great advice. 1 down 14 to go.
 where is Dan King " You are nothing without your freedom and after the rest of a great speech by William Wallace the Scots bend over show their moon/arse and say Pat ..... Besides this subject is about an architects use of the land and not whatever...
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Mike O'Neill

Re: architect who makes best use of land
« Reply #19 on: May 02, 2002, 05:55:42 AM »
Dan Proctor and Dave Axland
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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David Wigler

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: architect who makes best use of land
« Reply #20 on: May 02, 2002, 06:16:35 AM »
Craig,

I have never seen Sand Hills.  My praise of C&C was based on Cuscowilla.  If you have never been to Greensboro, GA., it should be a must.  It might very well be the best place to contrast and study differing golf architecture in America.  Within 10 miles of each other and all on similar land abutting Lake Oconee is Great Waters (Nicklaus), Oconee (Rees), National (Fazio), Harbour Club (Weiskopf / Morrish), Plantation and Port Armour (Cupp), & Cuscowilla (C&C).  Each was tasked with building a course that had environmental restrictions, limited Oconee coastline and needed to support summer condominium lodging.  None could claim better or worse land or restrictions.  Rees had by far the biggest budget but the others were all similar (Plantation probably had the smallest).  What would be your favorite course is a matter of taste.  I think that 11 - 18 at Great Waters is one of the best 8-hole stretches of golf around.  That written, I believe it is indisputable that C&C's natural land use is light years superior to the others.  Every one of the other courses has a "Built" feel to it.  Cuscowilla feels like it has been there forever and C&C just figured out where to put the tees and the greens.  Part of why it is rated in the top 20 by GW has to be its contrast to the surrounding courses.  If you get a chance to play all the courses in Greensboro, I would suggest playing Cuscowilla last.  Then C&C’s brilliance at natural features will be the most obvious.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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And I took full blame then, and retain such now.  My utter ignorance in not trumpeting a course I have never seen remains inexcusable.
Tom Huckaby 2/24/04

John_D._Bernhardt

Re: architect who makes best use of land
« Reply #21 on: May 02, 2002, 08:38:03 AM »
that is interesting David, Is that the Reynolds Resort?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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David Wigler

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: architect who makes best use of land
« Reply #22 on: May 02, 2002, 09:13:10 AM »
John,

Oconee, National, Great Waters and Plantation are all part of Reynolds Resort (I think the Ritz Carlton just opened).  We always stayed in the condominiums.

Cuscowilla is a semi-private club, Harbour Club is private and Port Armour is public.  Even though Harbour is Private and Cuscowilla semi-private, they have both been nothing but accommodating when the group of 20 people I have gone down there with the past five years has called for tee times.  Lake Oconee is one of the largest man-made lakes in the world.  It is an old TVA project.  There are plans for at least four more golf courses to abut the lake.  I do not know who is hired (Or if anyone has been hired) to design them.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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And I took full blame then, and retain such now.  My utter ignorance in not trumpeting a course I have never seen remains inexcusable.
Tom Huckaby 2/24/04

golfarc

Re: architect who makes best use of land
« Reply #23 on: May 08, 2002, 09:25:22 AM »


Bystander,

You are spot on about Kinloch and Lester George.  Vinny Giles who designed Kinloch with George said he is possibly the best router in the world.  He has also recieved high praise for The Colonial in Williamsburg, Newport Bay in Ocean City and most recently for Providence Golf Course a daily fee course routed on an extremely constrained site in Richmond.  Must be his expeirence as a military map expert or something.  His routings, as with the rest of his work, are truly commendable.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Craig Rokke

Re: architect who makes best use of land
« Reply #24 on: May 08, 2002, 07:46:14 PM »
I played George's Colonial in Williamsburg many years ago, and my memory is a little hazy. It was a pretty good course as I recall. Brad Klein thought highly of his latest course in Virginia, Kinloch. But for Giles to call him "possibly the best router in the world"--well that's pretty lofty praise. (How many courses has he done? 6? 8? 10?) Any other thoughts on George out there?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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