Difficulties with growing fescue in America

[Duane Sharpe]

Below is a link to an excellent article on growing fescue in America by Bob Vavrek of the USGA.  As a superintendent of a golf course with many acres of fescue, I think Bob does an excellent job of explaining the difficulties of using fescue in America and Canada in comparison to the UK.  I will be using some of his quotes in my upcoming newsletter addressing some of our challenges at Blackhawk in regards to our fescue.
Let me know your thoughts.
Sharpee

http://www.usga.org/uploadedFiles/USGAHome_Files/course_care/green_section_record/2009/jul_aug/fine_fescue.pdf

[Tom_Doak]

Duane:

I have two quibbles with the article:

1.  Mr. Vavrek is the USGA agronomist for the Great Lakes Region, so he manages to write a long article about the difficulties of fescue in America without ever mentioning the turf at Bandon Dunes, where it has been more successful than anywhere else in the USA.

2.  He furthers the perception that fescue should / must be combined with Colonial bentgrass in a fairway mix.  Colonial bent often requires a hefty fungicide budget, defeating the purpose of a low-input spec for the grasses.

I agree with the general theme that fescue is not for every situation, or even for more than a rare circumstance.  However, I've been listening to the USGA Green Section tell me fescue fairways won't work in America for more than 20 years, in spite of the fact that there are now several examples where they are working brilliantly.  It is just too outside the mainstream for them to accept.  I wonder they will keep on this pace for 20 more years as water rationing and herbicide / fungicide restrictions become the norm.

[Adam Clayman]

Another error implied in the article is from the last Picture. Those tire tracks will likely be gone after the next watering. Fecuse turf will go dormant from one foot print. These too are gone after the next rain or watering. From my observations, it takes a couple of days to recover, not a season.

[Adrian_Stiff]

Duane:

I have two quibbles with the article:

1.  Mr. Vavrek is the USGA agronomist for the Great Lakes Region, so he manages to write a long article about the difficulties of fescue in America without ever mentioning the turf at Bandon Dunes, where it has been more successful than anywhere else in the USA.

2.  He furthers the perception that fescue should / must be combined with Colonial bentgrass in a fairway mix.  Colonial bent often requires a hefty fungicide budget, defeating the purpose of a low-input spec for the grasses.

I agree with the general theme that fescue is not for every situation, or even for more than a rare circumstance.  However, I've been listening to the USGA Green Section tell me fescue fairways won't work in America for more than 20 years, in spite of the fact that there are now several examples where they are working brilliantly.  It is just too outside the mainstream for them to accept.  I wonder they will keep on this pace for 20 more years as water rationing and herbicide / fungicide restrictions become the norm.

Tom- I have never bought into the fescue and bent as a together either. They way each plant grows are at the ends of the spectrum in so many ways. IMO the finest grass to play an approach shot off is 100% chewings fescue mown at about 10mm, but it's not easy to keep. Have you seen any trials for the new herbicide "rescue" which basically  keeps rye grass out of fescue.

[Ian Larson]

I think the article is pretty much spot on and dont see anything incorrect in his analysis.

Tom - I think Vavrek started the article off with the mention that it does very well in limited areas of the US, including the northwest. Which would be including Bandon. I feel that he should have made specific mention due to its success.

Adam - Looking at that picture, and troubleshooting it as a grass guy, Im seeing cart tracks across a fairway. When troubleshooting an issue like the one in the picture, having a severely distinct sharp line of healthy grass next to distinctly brown grass.....thats a sign that any healing that is going to be done quickly has already been done. Specifically to the healthy green grass. If that picture showed the tracks in the middle of a huge wilted area, meaning that spot got hot and the tracks were mottled in with the surrounding wilt, I would agree that the tracks may still have a chance to come back. But because the quick healing has been done, the straw colored areas are long gone and will take months to come back. Especially with fescue. Those tracks are not dormant, they're pretty much dead. The entire vascular system and the crown region have been completely trashed beyond the plants ability to quickly repair itself.

Adrian / Tom - Colonial is always used in the mix with fescue because of its tillering abilities. If a monostand of fescue was used, divots and the ability of the divot to repair itself is a huge problem with fine fescue being a bunch type grass, not a creeping with the tillering ability. With having a monostand of fescue and its inability to tiller would force the super to always use only fescue seed to fill in the divots with. Fine fescue does not germinate and establish with the speed that a bent will. So the landing areas will always be polluted with sand filled divots all over the place. So yes, the way they grow is at the opposite end of the spectrum. And a colonial MAY require SOME more fungicides. But having a grass plant that has tillering capabilities in its growth characteristics is vital to maintaining decent conditions. With the fescue naturally being the desired stand, a colonial bent will always be used as a "nursery grass". Meaning its only there to pick up where the fescue falls short. And that is with germination and establishment, as well as tillering.

Specifically to fungicides....I would say that the Colonial MAYneed more fungicides because that would be my natural response as well. But according to Mark Logan and his guys, using his program with Colonial bent and fescue. Particularly the Colonial. Disease is minimal. Case in point The Valley Club of Montecitio. With the restoration its my understanding they used Colonial. Does anyone know if they went Colonial / Fescue?

[Bradley Anderson]

In the third picture you can see that fescue rough presents a really ideal ball lie. I love the blue color and the thin wiry texture. And in the midsummer months it can go weeks without mowing. You can see why this was a great grass for golf course rough at one time.

In the first photo, taken on an unirrigated fescue lawn during a dry spell, you can see how in the swale, where the water runs off the road, the fescue is maintaining enough moisture in the leaves to remain green. Outside the swale where the water sheds, the leaves are dormant.

In second photo you can see that vehicle traffic has damaged the cell tissue of the leaves. The grass is not dead, but the cells were dehydrated and they ruptured from the traffic.

I think these photos illustrate that fescue needs water to keep those unsightly tracks from developing, but it does not have to be a lot of water. This lawn had not been watered for two weeks when this photo was taken, and the residual moisture in the swale is enough to keep the turf from tracking under traffic.

[Bradley Anderson]

Three more photos. The first one is my son (proudly wearing his Detroit Tigers Grounds Crew Jacket). You can see that the mower tire tracks are visible outside where the water runs off the road through the swale. Again, the moisture inputs in the swale are not that much greater than outside the swale where we see tracking.

The second photo is a close up of an area on the same property where there is some shade. Here we see the same situation where the shade helps to conserve just enough moisture in the fescue for it to remain green.

The third photo is again of the swale, from a different angle.

[Niall C]

Duane:

I have two quibbles with the article:

1.  Mr. Vavrek is the USGA agronomist for the Great Lakes Region, so he manages to write a long article about the difficulties of fescue in America without ever mentioning the turf at Bandon Dunes, where it has been more successful than anywhere else in the USA.

2.  He furthers the perception that fescue should / must be combined with Colonial bentgrass in a fairway mix.  Colonial bent often requires a hefty fungicide budget, defeating the purpose of a low-input spec for the grasses.

I agree with the general theme that fescue is not for every situation, or even for more than a rare circumstance.  However, I've been listening to the USGA Green Section tell me fescue fairways won't work in America for more than 20 years, in spite of the fact that there are now several examples where they are working brilliantly.  It is just too outside the mainstream for them to accept.  I wonder they will keep on this pace for 20 more years as water rationing and herbicide / fungicide restrictions become the norm.

Tom- I have never bought into the fescue and bent as a together either. They way each plant grows are at the ends of the spectrum in so many ways. IMO the finest grass to play an approach shot off is 100% chewings fescue mown at about 10mm, but it's not easy to keep. Have you seen any trials for the new herbicide "rescue" which basically  keeps rye grass out of fescue.

Adrian

My home course has the same problem, and I was speaking to the greens convener who reckons the greenkeeper has the answer. Don't know what it is exactly, presumably the stuff you are referring to, but he's holding off using it until the winter for some reason. He's also very confident it will work.

Niall

[Philippe Binette]

Hi Duane,


you might want to look at this document produces by the R&A. It's a case study of what they did in Denmark where they switch to fescue for many reasons, water restrictions being one.
I also have the contact info for some of those supers.

https://www.bestcourseforgolf.org/content/library/promoting_fescu
download the PDF file

cheers

[Tom_Doak]

Ian:

Colonial bent is usually, but not "always", used in a mix with fescues.  We've planted straight fescue at Old Macdonald, because the Colonial in the mix on the other courses was judged to be more trouble than it has been worth, by Ken Nice and the other superintendents in Bandon.

We are NOT doing this to achieve a monostand look, and won't be bothered if a little bentgrass (and eventually poa annua) creeps into the sward in certain areas where it's more successful.  But we don't want a "mix" which is predominantly Colonial bent because of take-all patch and the spraying necessary to keep it from taking all.  (I do remember wondering why they liked the Colonial so much at Bandon Dunes when they were spending six figures to spray it.)

And BTW, fescue establishes just fine and dandy.  There are lots of photos of Old Macdonald on other threads if you want to check up on it.

[Dan Moore]

I am not that aware of many courses that have fescue fairways in the US.  Erin Hills (seems pretty good but jury still out) Kingsley (very fine playing surface).   I seem to recall reading that Raynor planted fescue in the fairways at the Chicago Golf Club.  Their fairways today are as good as any.  Are they still mostly fescue?  Aside from Bandon what are some of the other courses that have fescue fairways? 

[Tom_Doak]

Dan:

US courses built with fescue fairways (since 1985) (I'm sure this is not a complete list, just ones I know of):

Spanish Bay (RIP)
High Pointe (there's still some left, but they are very patchy)
Sand Hills
Wild Horse (only on approaches)
Kingsley
Ballyneal
Whistling Straits (not sure if the Irish course is also fescue)
Bandon Dunes x 4
Chambers Bay
Erin Hills
Dismal River

Outside the USA:  Barnbougle Dunes, Kingsbarns, Castle Stuart, The Renaissance Club

If there was fescue at Chicago Golf it didn't last long ... the soils are too fertile there.  It was bluegrass fairways up til the late 1980's, when they put in automatic irrigation; now it's poa/bent.

[Jeff_Mingay]

Tom,

Add Sagebrush, in British Columbia, to your list.

I haven't been back since we dropped the last seed there, but plan to visit this fall. I'm looking forward to seeing the fescue fairways at Sagebrush following their first season of play/traffic.

For the record, colonial bent is in the fairway mix.

[Pete_Pittock]

Tetherow is also fescue.

[Tom_Doak]

Pete:

I forgot about Tetherow and also Wicked Pony ... at least the nine holes we planted were all fescue fairways.   

[Jimmy Muratt]

Old Sandwich also has fescue fairways.

[Tom_Doak]

Does anyone notice the trend here?

USGA talks about "difficulties with growing fescue in America," ignoring that the top three modern courses all have fescue fairways.

[Matt Harrison]

Tom,

Would you care to comment on whether you considered fescue fairways for Lost Dunes?  Is it just too far south compared to High Point? 

[Ian Larson]

Tom,

I get the feeling that you took that article as the USGA not recommending the use of fescue and that its difficult to grow when used. I took it as them saying that there is a reason why it works so well in the UK, and heres why. And heres why its not an option for just any project in the US. Stating the conditions that favor fescue and the conditions that dont, as well as where those conditions exist in the US. Vavrek should have mentioned parts of the midwest and southeast in his article as well. 

I understand fescue establishes just fine and dandy. Relative to the Rye's, the Bent's, the Blue's and Bermuda's it comes in dead last as far as the rate of establishment, thats all I was saying. And to make sure the term establishment isnt being used loosely, lets consider that the point at which a turf can start to be manicured. Not just germinated. And even with the fescues that have a creeping ability, the rhizomes are very unaggressive rhizomes compared to all of the other grasses. Hence the need for a grass with an aggressive rhizome or even a stolon to pick up where it lacks in the creeping department.

I guess Im just confused about Bandon and Old Mac....it was decided to only plant the fescue sans bent, because of the Take All plague and spraying 6 figures of chemical a year (hell of alot of fungicide). But they are not going to implement a program to maintain a pure fescue sward, allowing the invasion of poa and bents. Which over time will just become fairways with large percentages of poa and bent that will also be prone to Take All and the 6 figure spraying all over again.

Its a shame that Colonial is so prone to being obliterated to Take All up there. Its one of the oldest (ancient) and most hardiest bents still around that doesnt creep like other bents with stolons, its a rhizometous grass just like its fescue counterpart that is more similar to fescue than it is to the new university bents. 

[Adrian_Stiff]

Ian you probably wont get the take all if the bent creeps in on it's own. The take all is much more for newer bentgrass, the natural process where it can defend itself takes maybe three years, the only thing that could really kick it off would be a dramatic PH change, take all never really hits hard in older turfs, or at least thats the UK view. I am suprised that to defend young grass is so much money, could you not use acidifying products even a liquid form of sulphate of iron , would that not really lessen the dollar burden on fungicides? or is the concern on heavy metal build ups and black layering, surely 18 months would be okay.

Back to the main question, surely the prime reason for growing any grass is just the right climate and the right soils and fescue would be more suited to a northern european climate, that northern temperate zone isn't in lots of USA places, but the west coast up to Vancouver would is pretty good aka Bandon. The fescue never really worked at Spanish Bay ( I last saw it 89) it was struggling and from I hear its poa dominated now, can fescue workthat south or were there other reasons.

[Tom_Doak]

Adrian:

I think the only reason the Pebble Beach Company went with fescue at Spanish Bay was that they thought it would help them get permits.  While RTJ Jr. and Tatum and Watson were excited about the fescue, Pebble Beach Company was not really committed to it at all, and was happy to let the course convert to Poa, especially with people coming off Spyglass and Pebble complaining about the slow green speeds at Spanish Bay.

In the end, I don't know if fescue would work in Monterey or not ... I think it's likely to wind up as Poa annua over time unless you are very aggressive and spending a lot of money to keep the Poa out.  But it is really a moot point, because if other neighbor courses have bentgrass fairways and greens (even though they cost twice as much to maintain), the consumer will prefer the bentgrass and complain about the fescue.  That's why fescue fairways are successful in Scotland and in Bandon and in the Sand Hills, where there are no other options, but they were not successful in Monterey and are struggling in Seattle and Wisconsin.