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Jeff Goldman

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Western Am
« on: August 03, 2009, 03:14:20 PM »
The Western Amateur, what many think is the 2nd most important amateur championship in the US, starts tomorrow at Conway Farms.  It marks the return to Chicago.  I would have expected at least a little more pub, at least in the golf community, but haven't heard much.  Anyone going to be out there or have a report on the course or set-up?
That was one hellacious beaver.

PCCraig

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Western Am
« Reply #1 on: August 03, 2009, 04:49:46 PM »
Jeff-

I don't have a report on the course other than I have played it a handful of times. However, I am thinking of heading up there on Saturday to watch the final match.

According to Ed Sherman's Crains Blog it is $10 for adults and free for kids. It should be pretty cool to watch two guys who just survived 72 holes of stroke play and a full match play bracket pound out one more match.
H.P.S.

C. Squier

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Western Am
« Reply #2 on: August 03, 2009, 06:15:49 PM »
Don't know anything specific about the course setup, but I played Conway last year right after they had a qualifier for the US Open.  Wow....was it a tough setup.  Blue light special on 8 inch rough.  Thought they'd have to medivac my wrists out after that round.  Have no idea if they're doing the same for the Western Am, but if they do.....watch out.

Matt Harrison

Re: Western Am
« Reply #3 on: August 03, 2009, 10:36:51 PM »
As a former resident of the St Joseph/Benton Harbor area in Michigan, it is sad to see the Western Am played somewhere other than Point O' Woods.  While I didn't belong with the rest of the field, I was fortunate enough to play in the Western a couple times a while back.  It is a great tournament, and many participants over the years said it was the strongest field of all the amateur tournaments (especially in a non-Walker Cup year)  It will be interesting to see if the tournament grows in stature or not with the change in venue.  I wonder if the WGA will regret the move...

I know this discussion group has many Lost Dunes fans (I am definitely one of them), any comments on Point O' Woods?

Matt Harrison 


Andy Troeger

Re: Western Am
« Reply #4 on: August 03, 2009, 10:56:30 PM »
Point O'Woods is a very fine course--I've played it many times over about the last 15 years. Unfortunately time has not been particularly kind in some respects--a few important trees have come down in storms and then the changes to the 9th are in my opinion, rather unfortunate. It went from being a very clear Top 100 level course in my mind to rather borderline, but that's still VERY good.

I don't remember the rota that's going to be used for the Western in Chicago, but I doubt that many of those courses are going to better than the Point. It would seem to help with attendance, but I wonder if the event will be lost in the big city versus a main event in a smaller area.

Matt Harrison

Re: Western Am
« Reply #5 on: August 03, 2009, 11:09:14 PM »
I agree, Andy, time has not been good to the Point.  Both losing trees and a few years of mediocre maintenance hurt its reputation.  While I love playing the golf course and consider it to be a very good test, I just don't think it is top 100 material.  It just doesn't have the character of a Crystal Downs or Chicago Golf.  But, you better strike it good to post a good score there!

It will be very interesting to see if they can draw crowds for the Western in Chicago.  Truth is, 10-20 years ago, the Western drew pretty good in a small area, but in the last 10 years, the community quit coming out.  I watched Steve Scott flirt with 59 at the Point in the late 90's, and I don't think there were more than 400 people total on the whole golf course.   Maybe the WGA made a good move?


Andy Troeger

Re: Western Am
« Reply #6 on: August 03, 2009, 11:15:10 PM »
Matt,
Sometimes a change is necessary to revive an event. I know I lived in South Bend and never went to the event because I was usually involved in playing in something myself--but obviously I never made it a priority either. It will be interesting to see how this works for the Western and for the Point. They get their course all summer, but the event was so closely tied to the course that I wonder if its lost a bit of its identity.

Matt Harrison

Re: Western Am
« Reply #7 on: August 03, 2009, 11:21:18 PM »
I guess in the end the "proof is in the pudding." 

Tim_Cronin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Western Am
« Reply #8 on: August 04, 2009, 12:28:53 AM »
For my money, this is the toughest format in golf. Four rounds of stroke play over three days (if you make the cut to the low 44 and ties), then into match play, with four rounds over two days for the finalists. That's 144 holes (more or less) over five days.

It's a test of endurance and of a solid swing. It also predicts champions. Since 1956, when the Sweet Sixteen format began, 28 Sweet Sixteen participants have won 72 pro majors (including 18 by Jack and 14 by Tiger).

Stopped by Conway for a few minutes this morning just to pick up a credential, and the place was hopping. How that translates into spectator interest, however, is a different question. I know the Tribune and Sun-Times are covering the match play days, but I'm not so sure about the others. Amateur golf isn't a headline generator in the post-Tiger era, and it doesn't matter how good the play is. Editors just aren't interested.

I've seen the finals of most Western Ams since 1990, when Craig Kanada won. The crowds fell to almost nobody the last couple of years, a far cry from 1991-94, when Phil Mickelson, Justin Leonard, Leonard again, and Tiger Woods won those Ams. Great stuff, and seen by thousands, plus who knows how many more listening to live radio coverage on two local stations. I loved the annual trip to the Point (though not the Sunday night traffic jam in I-80-94), and have always thought highly of its match play worthiness -- the moved up tee on No. 8, the dramatic par-3 ninth, the potential for disaster on the par-3 17th.

Here's the rotation beyond this year: 2010, Skokie. 2011, North Shore. 2012, Exmoor (host the last time it was played in Chicagoland, in 1952). 2013, Olympia Fields South. 2014, Beverly. 2015, Rich Harvest Farms.

I'm thinking, if they get 500 on Saturday afternoon for the final match, it's a good crowd.
The website: www.illinoisgolfer.net
On Twitter: @illinoisgolfer

Matt Harrison

Re: Western Am
« Reply #9 on: August 04, 2009, 09:04:07 AM »
Couldn't agree more, Tim, on the format.  Thanks for the reminder on the Leonard, Mickelson, Woods heyday.  Heck, Duval was there those years as well, if I remember correctly, just didn't advance as far.  Watching Mickelson and Leonard play was a treat.

The other great match play hole at the Point is #2, the short par 5 with a great greensite.

Enjoy the golf this week and weekend, would love to hear an update.

K. Krahenbuhl

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Western Am
« Reply #10 on: August 04, 2009, 09:30:08 AM »
Here's the rotation beyond this year: 2010, Skokie. 2011, North Shore. 2012, Exmoor (host the last time it was played in Chicagoland, in 1952). 2013, Olympia Fields South. 2014, Beverly. 2015, Rich Harvest Farms.

Further proof that it is a great move.  These courses will stack up more than well enough against Point O Woods.

Mark Smolens

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Western Am
« Reply #11 on: August 04, 2009, 11:58:41 AM »
I'm playing the Point next Wednesday (followed by Lost Dunes Thursday am).  Not sure what was meant by maintenance issues.  I've only been there in the last two years, but the course has always been in absolutely perfect condition when I've been there. I think the kids play #2 as a par4 (acc. to my host - the Club President -- in last year's event, Danny Lee hit 9 iron in).  Did make an ace on 17 in my round last year.  Sweet 5 iron hybrid from 192 (and yes, I did use my Bushnell to calculate the  distance).  I don't think it was the WGA's decision to leave the Point.

Shivas, did the WGA give any reason for eliminating the qualifying?  I was just looking at the website the other day for a friend, to see where he could go to try to qualify, and there wasn't any. . .

tlavin

Re: Western Am
« Reply #12 on: August 04, 2009, 12:00:36 PM »
Point O'Woods is a big, muscular and difficult golf course.  It is on an impressive piece of property with a great variety of holes.  It may have suffered somewhat in maintenance over the past couple years, but every time I play it, it seems to be in great shape.  I'm playing it in a week or so with four foursomes of Beverly members and we always look forward to getting up there.  I don't know that it is any kind of an architectural gem, but it certainly is a special place in my book.

Matt Harrison

Re: Western Am
« Reply #13 on: August 04, 2009, 03:52:12 PM »
Just to clarify on maintenance/conditioning issues at Point O' Woods, as I was the one who originally mentioned it.  Probably 5 years ago or so, they went through a season or 2 where the golf course was not in as good a shape as normal.  This I believe coincided with the course falling out of the GD top 100, and they did clearly lose points on conditioning.  Obviously, you can argue much about the validity of the rankings....

I played there 2 weeks ago, and the course was in great shape, as it usually is.  I have several good friends that are members, and I love the golf course.

When I played Lost Dunes, we got into the discussion with a Chicago guy regarding the WGA's decision to leave the Point.  It is interesting to hear the varying opinions on that decision. 

I did not realize they did away with qualifying, I agree that takes something away from the tournament.

Mark Smolens

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Western Am
« Reply #14 on: August 04, 2009, 05:19:10 PM »
I'm sure that Terry (as a WGA director) could weigh in on the reason(s?) for leaving, but from the perspective of my host, the decision was the Club's and not the WGA's.

Tim_Cronin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Western Am
« Reply #15 on: August 04, 2009, 08:31:22 PM »
The Point, which had made money on the Western Am for years, lost money when crowds declined. The WGA began paying a site fee a few years back. 2008 was the last year of a five-year deal. The Point wanted big money (I'd have to check my notes for the exact figure, but it was $100,000-plus annually) to keep hosting. That was too high for the WGA, which has this thing about sending caddies to college.

So it was off to Chicago and the new rota. Not sure of the specifics on Conway Farms' deal, but I note that Callaway is a presenting sponsor this year. TaylorMade was for a couple of years at the Point.

I'll see what I can find out about the rationale behind the elimination of qualifying. More than a few qualifiers made it into the Sweet Sixteen over the years.
The website: www.illinoisgolfer.net
On Twitter: @illinoisgolfer

Andy Troeger

Re: Western Am
« Reply #16 on: August 05, 2009, 09:01:36 AM »
Here's the rotation beyond this year: 2010, Skokie. 2011, North Shore. 2012, Exmoor (host the last time it was played in Chicagoland, in 1952). 2013, Olympia Fields South. 2014, Beverly. 2015, Rich Harvest Farms.

Further proof that it is a great move.  These courses will stack up more than well enough against Point O Woods.

I had thought that they were going to keep the Point in the rotation--perhaps once every five years. It appears not. I find it hard to believe many (if any) of those courses are any better than Point O'Woods, but most likely there's not a big difference.

K. Krahenbuhl

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Western Am
« Reply #17 on: August 05, 2009, 09:28:59 AM »
Here's the rotation beyond this year: 2010, Skokie. 2011, North Shore. 2012, Exmoor (host the last time it was played in Chicagoland, in 1952). 2013, Olympia Fields South. 2014, Beverly. 2015, Rich Harvest Farms.

Further proof that it is a great move.  These courses will stack up more than well enough against Point O Woods.

I had thought that they were going to keep the Point in the rotation--perhaps once every five years. It appears not. I find it hard to believe many (if any) of those courses are any better than Point O'Woods, but most likely there's not a big difference.

Have you played them?

Andy Troeger

Re: Western Am
« Reply #18 on: August 05, 2009, 09:40:15 AM »
Kyle,
Only OFCC South, which is a very fine course but would definitely fall behind the Point on my list. Otherwise, I'm just going off the ranking lists. Beverly, Skokie, and the Point are all in the 90's on the classic list which would seem to indicate that they are comparable. Opinions on Rich Harvest seem to be all over the board--I'm hoping to see it for myself soon (and the rest as well). I just don't see any evidence that those courses as a group are significantly better than the Point.

I'm sure you can argue the specific courses all day, but it hardly seems that they're moving it to get away from the Point as a venue.

I assume you have played them?

PCCraig

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Western Am
« Reply #19 on: August 05, 2009, 09:40:47 AM »
Here's the rotation beyond this year: 2010, Skokie. 2011, North Shore. 2012, Exmoor (host the last time it was played in Chicagoland, in 1952). 2013, Olympia Fields South. 2014, Beverly. 2015, Rich Harvest Farms.

Further proof that it is a great move.  These courses will stack up more than well enough against Point O Woods.

I had thought that they were going to keep the Point in the rotation--perhaps once every five years. It appears not. I find it hard to believe many (if any) of those courses are any better than Point O'Woods, but most likely there's not a big difference.

IMO Conway, North Shore, Exmoor, and Rich Harvest are not as good as Point O'
I think Beverly and Skokie are on the same level and I haven't yet seen the updated OFCC South

I do however think that having the Western Am around many of the clubs in Chicago that have long supported the Evans is a good idea. If good enough golfers show up I can't imagine them having a hard time promoting and getting a ton of people from the area out to watch. For example, at Conway this week you can only imagine how many Evans supporters from the North Shore clubs that will sneak over Saturday afternoon for the final match.

I do also agree that the lack of any qualifying site is a sore note now. I had much the same experience (a very long time ago) as Shivas at Lake Michigan Hills. Its a fantastic experience and one that isn't totally out of reach as so long as you could bunt around a 75/76 on a local muni. However I'm sure that they have a reasoning for this, perhaps to make the field stronger and attract better players?
H.P.S.

K. Krahenbuhl

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Western Am
« Reply #20 on: August 05, 2009, 09:48:29 AM »
Kyle,
Only OFCC South, which is a very fine course but would definitely fall behind the Point on my list. Otherwise, I'm just going off the ranking lists. Beverly, Skokie, and the Point are all in the 90's on the classic list which would seem to indicate that they are comparable. Opinions on Rich Harvest seem to be all over the board--I'm hoping to see it for myself soon (and the rest as well). I just don't see any evidence that those courses as a group are significantly better than the Point.

I'm sure you can argue the specific courses all day, but it hardly seems that they're moving it to get away from the Point as a venue.

I assume you have played them?

I would prefer Beverly, OFCC and Skokie.  I think Conway and Rich Harvest can also put on a great presentation.  North Shore is a solid course and I'm sure will host a great tournament.  I haven't seen Exmoor.  I think it is a great move to move the tournament around amongst these locations.  I think this format (vs one site) fits better with the original intent of the tournament.

Andy Troeger

Re: Western Am
« Reply #21 on: August 05, 2009, 09:58:54 AM »
Kyle,
I'm sure all of the courses will be great hosts, especially on a rotating basis. I would just have liked to have seen Point O'Woods included. Granted, I don't know enough about the situation to know if they even wanted to be included--Tim's post would indicate that perhaps this situation is for the better all around.

I also think Point O'Woods is vastly underrated currently--I'd still have it in the bottom of an overall Top 100 and not just the "Classic" listing. I've also played it far more than any of the other Top 100 courses that I've seen so I'm probably biased in that regard.

tlavin

Re: Western Am
« Reply #22 on: August 05, 2009, 10:23:28 AM »
Kyle,
I'm sure all of the courses will be great hosts, especially on a rotating basis. I would just have liked to have seen Point O'Woods included. Granted, I don't know enough about the situation to know if they even wanted to be included--Tim's post would indicate that perhaps this situation is for the better all around.

I also think Point O'Woods is vastly underrated currently--I'd still have it in the bottom of an overall Top 100 and not just the "Classic" listing. I've also played it far more than any of the other Top 100 courses that I've seen so I'm probably biased in that regard.

It's a Top 100 in my book and it's surely comparable with OFCC South, Beverly, Conway and North Shore.  It's probably better than a couple on that list, depending upon one's tastes.  The real bummer about the event leaving Point is that there was a real family feel to the event.  All of the players stayed with members or area residents and the members really got to know some of the greatest amateur players, some before they went on to spectacular pro careers.  Some of that small town feeling will surely fade, since there is a rotation now.  Having said that, change will also invigorate the event.  I'm sure the WGA folks are happy to look at a new locale this year.  It might get a bit tricky having to change every single year, since they'll have to deal with a new committee at a new club every year, and country club committees are...shall we say...dysfunctional!

Matt Harrison

Re: Western Am
« Reply #23 on: August 05, 2009, 11:11:24 PM »
I agree the Point is underrated these days.  While I have not played all of the great Chicago parkland courses, I have played some of the very good ones.  I think the difference at Point O Woods is that Jones had a little better land to work with than most good Chicago courses.  He certainly used the ravines nicely for some greensites.

What do you think the chances of the Western getting to Chicago Golf Club someday?  I would guess pretty slim, but it would be fun to watch.  I've been told Chicago Golf has been lengthened some recently.

Tim_Cronin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Western Am
« Reply #24 on: August 06, 2009, 12:15:19 PM »
I agree the Point is underrated these days.  While I have not played all of the great Chicago parkland courses, I have played some of the very good ones.  I think the difference at Point O Woods is that Jones had a little better land to work with than most good Chicago courses.  He certainly used the ravines nicely for some greensites.

What do you think the chances of the Western getting to Chicago Golf Club someday?  I would guess pretty slim, but it would be fun to watch.  I've been told Chicago Golf has been lengthened some recently.

Not likely is my guess. The Walker Cup a few years ago was plenty for the CGC in the first third of this century. Maybe they'lll have something again in 30 or 40 years.
The website: www.illinoisgolfer.net
On Twitter: @illinoisgolfer

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