One question for St Andrew's Old Course haters: Why?

[Scott Warren]

There is a great line from David Fay in Ran's write-up: "Anyone who raves about the Old Course after just one or two rounds there is either a liar or a fool".

I've read that line by David Fay and while it is certainly catchy, I don't know that it's necessarily true.

Tom Doak or Bernard Darwin I am not, but I had one look at TOC and will say I love it. I don't claim to know the intricacies of it after one look, that would be daft, but I saw enough to see just how much I don't know, but also to know that next time I would have a better battle plan (better angles of approach to the greens especially) and idea of what to do, which I am sure would continue for hundreds of rounds.

It hooked me, teased me and perplexed me more in four hours than any other golf course, and for that reason, I will say without fear of having David Fay quoted at me, that I love the old girl.

The thing I laugh at is people saying how the first time they played, they had no idea where they were meant to hit on several tees. The 7th and maybe the 2nd and/or 3rd I can understand, but aside from that, this has to be a gross exaggeration, yeah?

No, its absolutely correct.  When the ideal line from the tee on most holes can vary dramatically depending on the wind and hole location, you need to know the course pretty well to know where to hit it.

I suppose if you count not knowing the exact line in the fairway as "no idea where they were meant to hit", then you're right. What was painted to me was that many first-timers had little idea which was many holes ran away from the tee box.

[Jamie Barber]

Jamie Barber:

Can you name three golf courses that are more disorienting than the Old Course, especially for first time visitors?

I can't answer that because I didn't find it disorientating at all. I don't recall any tee where I stood and thought "I have no idea where I'm supposed to hit this". Contrast that to courses I've played with really blind holes (e.g. at RCD, Brancaster, Hunstanton, RSG) and you have to walk ahead to see past the blindness, and then back to the tee.

As Scott said, maybe it's not clear of the perfect line, but then that's common to a lot of courses during the first visit.

[Leo Barber]

Two quotes from two greats. 

[Adam Clayman]

In addition I would add the fact that on holes 2-7 every tee shot is blind.  This is a cute feature for a hole or two, but 6 holes in a row?  Boring.  I got even Tommy Naccarato to agree with me on this.  

Rihc- How is having 6 blind tee shots in a row boring, Compared to having 18 holes all laid out in front of you?

[Giles Payne]

Here is my first post on GCA and I fear that I am going to to try to teach history to a group of historians.

There are a number of comments about TOC having no rhythm and being disorientating. This could be because it is not now played in its original layout. From their website - the  'Old' layout - Today the 600-year-old course is played in the anti-clockwise direction but in the days of Old Tom Morris, it was played clockwise. This route starts on the 1st tee driving towards the 17th green, then driving from the 17th to the 16th green and so on around the course bringing a different set of hazards into play.

I would obviously love to be able to play it as it was originally designed - I loved my one encounter (even though I managed to go out of bounds on the 1st!!! ???javascript:void(0) but was definitely helped by the presence of a caddie.

[Jamie Barber]

I thought they started out clockwise, then rotated on alternate weekends, then ended up anti-clockwise after old Tom built the 1st green?

I know you can still play the clockwise rotation now and again. My friend played this routing last year.

[Bill_McBride]

I thought they started out clockwise, then rotated on alternate weekends, then ended up anti-clockwise after old Tom built the 1st green?

I know you can still play the clockwise rotation now and again. My friend played this routing last year.

It's a once a year event, end of March, with a round on the regular Old, a round on the Reverse Old, and either New or Jubilee, for a reasonable fee.  I did this in 2007 and had a great time.  The weather was surprisingly benign.

The Links Trust posts this special event on their website, now would probably be about the right time to start thinking about it.

[George Pazin]

I'd strongly encourage anyone interested in the Reverse Old Course to read Jeremy Glenn's excellent piece on this site in the In My Opinion section. It deservedly created a great deal of discussion when he unwound it hole by hole quite a few years ago.

The Reverse Old Course

[Adrian_Stiff]

The true original course is still pretty much the back nine, that's hardly changed, the original front played differently and gradually got widened. I dont believe the old course ever played to the 6th green in reverse, ie holes 7 and 12 always played over shared ground. With the front nine lesser players should just keep the ball further left, there are not many hazards to trap a tee shot of up to 240 yards from the backs (200 from the fronts) if you keep it left. The holes 2-5 are not crazy blind, there are glimpses. I do not think everything should be a perfect picture infront of you, if we adopted that as an 'architecural rule' it would make many situations difficult, what I would agree with is you need a mix of visible, invisible, tempting and mystery.

[JC Urbina]

Melvyn
I used the words "no rhyme or reason" as an explanation of how it appears.  I know better then to assume its by happenstance.  As a believer in links style golf, St Andrews Old does more for the game on the ground as any course in the U.K.  I also understand why golf to the Scotts and links golf in particular is so prevalent.  

[Melvyn Morrow]

JC

Are you saying it is because we can't design inland courses.

Melvyn

[JC Urbina]

Melvyn

Do you design golf courses for living? 

[Bill_McBride]

The true original course is still pretty much the back nine, that's hardly changed, the original front played differently and gradually got widened. I dont believe the old course ever played to the 6th green in reverse, ie holes 7 and 12 always played over shared ground. With the front nine lesser players should just keep the ball further left, there are not many hazards to trap a tee shot of up to 240 yards from the backs (200 from the fronts) if you keep it left. The holes 2-5 are not crazy blind, there are glimpses. I do not think everything should be a perfect picture infront of you, if we adopted that as an 'architecural rule' it would make many situations difficult, what I would agree with is you need a mix of visible, invisible, tempting and mystery.

Adrian, interesting you say that. The approach to the sixth green from the opposite (Reverse) direction plays over a very large stand of gorse!  It's not a hard shot but quite blind. Another reason to hire an experienced caddy on the Old Course!

[John_Cullum]

Two quotes from two greats. 

Though neither is correct

[Sean_A]

TOC is a hopelessly flawed golf course for the reasons already pointed out and more, but I can't see how someone could hate it.  The land itself creates something memorable with its nooks and crannies.  The ponderously huge greens which seem a doddle, but are far from it also lend a hand toward memorability.  Plus, the back 9 is one of the best stretches in golf.  No, other than some totally unnecessary and and way ott bunkering considering that great piece of land, my only beef is that the course has been turned into a Disney Production.

Ciao

[BCrosby]

"I came back to the Old Course in 1926 to practice for the Walker Cup, but before that I had a lot of thinking and talking to a lot of transplanted Scots who knew St Andrews."

Peter -

Thanks for posting the speech. I've often wondered who the "transplanted Scots" were that changed Jones' mind about TOC. I'm pretty sure one was Tommy Armour, with whom Jones played during winters in Florida. Another would probably be Stewart Maiden, the pro at East Lake. But I'd bet that another was Alister MacKenzie who was in St Andrews in '26 and probably first met Jones then. Which, of course, was also the high water mark of MacK's dust-up with Crane. So there was a lot of talk at the time about the architecture of TOC.

To have been a fly on the wall...  

Bob



  

[Peter Pallotta]

Thanks, Bob - I hadn't even thought of that angle, and it's an interesting one. I was struck more -- in the context of this thread -- by what seemed to me Jones' simple yet insightful comments, i.e. in terms of the playing experience, TOC is particularly 'dependent' on the (changing) wind and the (hard to come by) local knowledge...elements that, I'm guessing, an ever-increasing percentage of the world's golfers today have little time or patience for and that, for this reason if for no other, elements that are neutralized in many modern-day designs

Peter

[Rich Goodale]

In addition I would add the fact that on holes 2-7 every tee shot is blind.  This is a cute feature for a hole or two, but 6 holes in a row?  Boring.  I got even Tommy Naccarato to agree with me on this.  

Rihc- How is having 6 blind tee shots in a row boring, Compared to having 18 holes all laid out in front of you?

A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statesmen and philosophers and divines.