One question for St Andrew's Old Course haters: Why?

[Scott Warren]

Is Open-worthiness that steadfastly tied to being a "stern test"? What's wrong with a winner in the low to mid-teens under par? Worth pointing out the weather has been pretty good for both of Tiger's wins...

[Jamie Barber]

My basic premise was that the tougher test should identify the best player, but if the course plays "easy" it opens the field. Maybe that premise is wrong and in fact the inverse is true, because on tougher set ups lady luck plays too much a part (it certainly looks wrong based on past winners at TOC).

Personally I think they go back to TOC too often. But then I'd also like to see new courses on the rota.

[Melvyn Morrow]

Jamie

Why not have The Open played at Lahinch or somewhere in France or Spain in fact let’s also replace the Claret Jug as well. Kill all connections with its traditions. In fact, why bother having The Open in the first place.

Whatever you think there is no greater prize in Golf than winning The Open at St Andrews. Don’t believe me ask all the players who participate each year, ask all The Open Champions who won at St Andrews which was their greatest prize.

As for new sites, the only one I would love to see back in the fold would be Prestwick, but that alas will not happen.

Golf is born of the Links, we have an Open on the Links, the greatest Championship is on the Links. Why change, unless you want to reduce it to every 4 years at St Andrews and include Prestwick, otherwise it is not broken so leave well alone would be my suggestion.

Personally, I think they have it right with the exception of Prestwick

Melvyn

[Jamie Barber]

That's not what I'm saying as well you know. My point is I think there are other great LINKS courses in the UK that would be worthy hosts, but that's another argument. And as you also know, the Claret Jug is not the original trophy anyway

[Adrian_Stiff]

Melvyn I was rather hopeful that maybe for the 150th anniversary they might play the original 12 holer at Prestwick inviting all the living ex champions, a bit like when they played the 2000 Open.

Jamie- I know where your coming from but logistics is such a big factor, the Open is worth so much to the R & A and the ability to regenerate that money back into this sport it has to maximise the £££. Open's at difficult venues would not get the till ringing.

The Open at TOC is always special and I think the double up on the current rotation is justified.

[John_Conley]

It isn't real scenic.

[Melvyn Morrow]

Adrian

That would have been great the original 12 hole. Love to see what the modern golfer with his clubs etc would do on that 1st long hole. Wonder how many could match Young Tom and get down in three. It would prove perhaps that the new golfing heroes are worth all that pampering but what about those who would only get a five. I expect it would sort the men out from the boys. Yes, great idea Adrian, but who would submit themselves to being perhaps humiliated by Hickory & a Gutty. Make all the manufacturers think though.

Love it

Melvyn 

[JC Urbina]

Scott

I know a lot of people who have a dislike for St Andrews including a few of the caddies in the East Lothian Region.  I think a lot of people fall out of favor for the Old Course simply because it follows no formula.  No sense of which way to hit it off the tee in some locations, others find it mundane ( Hole # 9)  and others simply want to be steered around the course with visual stimulation.  I recently did an interview where I describe St Andrews as very random in its presentation and seemingly laid out without meaning. The latter so far from the truth

[George Pazin]

Scott

I know a lot of people who have a dislike for St Andrews including a few of the caddies in the East Lothian Region.  I think a lot of people fall out of favor for the Old Course simply because it follows no formula.  No sense of which way to hit it off the tee in some locations, others find it mundane ( Hole # 9)  and others simply want to be steered around the course with visual stimulation.  I recently did an interview where I describe St Andrews as very random in its presentation and seemingly laid out without meaning. The latter so far from the truth

This is precisely why it's so high on my wish list. But then I've always had weird preferences in golf courses.

[Peter Pallotta]

Just for fun, I went to look up Bobby Jones' speech from the award ceremony at St. Andrews. Here's a snippet:

"I appreciate the fact that my good friend, the Provost, has glossed over my first encounter with the Old Course, but I would like you to know that I did not say a lot of things that were put out that I said. But I could not play the course, and I did not think anyone else could. I ask you to remember, of course, that at the time I had attained the ripe old age of 19 years, and I did not know much about golf.

Actually, that first time, we got along pretty good, the Old Course and me, for two rounds. I scored 151 - of course, there was no wind. My boys here this week will admit that ain't bad. But I started off in the third round and the wind was blowing right in my face. That day it was really blowing! I reached the turn in 43, and when I was playing the 7th, 8th and 9th, I thought, 'well, that's fine, I'll be blowing home with the wind.' Well, as I stood on the tenth tee it turned right round and it blew home all the way against me. I got a six at the tenth, and then, at the 11th, I put my shot into Hill Bunker, not Strath, as they said. They also say that when I got out of that bunker I hit my ball into the Eden. That's not so, for I never did get the ball out of Hill Bunker.

I came back to the Old Course in 1926 to practice for the Walker Cup, but before that I had a lot of thinking and talking to a lot of transplanted Scots who knew St Andrews. I set about studying it and I pretty soon found out that local knowledge is a real important thing if you want to play that golf course. You have to study it, and the more you study the more you learn; the more you learn the more you study it. I have this to say of the Old Course, that after my chastisement she seemed to be satisfied for she never let me lose another contest. When I say that, I mean what she did to the other fellow..."

Peter

PS - good questions to ask, Rich - thanks.

[Kyle Henderson]

I definitely agree that the experience of playing the Old Course supersedes the qualities of the course itself. After playing one round there, I certainly would not place the TOC among the 10 best golf courses in the world. Maybe I'll come to think differently some day.

That being said, I think it is clearly better than the other courses operated by the St. Andrews Links Trust and I can see why some would consider it the best course in Fife.

For my money,

The weakest holes: 3,6,9,10,15  

The strongest holes: 4,5,7,11,13,14,17

[Melvyn Morrow]

JC

If you know your golfing history you would remember, the fierce and what may be described as Tiger Tantrums from the East Lothian golfing (so-called) supporters dating back to the 1870’s. They surfaced many times in the matches between Old Tom & Willie Park Snr.  The Referee actually stopped one of the matches, the 4th Match at Musselburgh because the ball & player was being interfered with by some of those Lothian mob. Old Tom & Parks were asked by the Referee to replay the game the next day but Parks refused leaving Old Tom to play out under the instructions of the Referee.

So, has much changed in all those years, have they matured, actually I don’t know although Woods seemed to be a popular name back then – no can’t be but makes you wonder. 

Melvyn

PS JC. Don’t forget it’s the Kingdom of Fife we are talking about, of course others will be jealous 

[John Mayhugh]

PS JC. Don’t forget it’s the Kingdom of Fife we are talking about, of course others will be jealous 

OK, Melvyn I can agree with you here!

[Niall C]

Scott

I know a lot of people who have a dislike for St Andrews including a few of the caddies in the East Lothian Region.  I think a lot of people fall out of favor for the Old Course simply because it follows no formula.  No sense of which way to hit it off the tee in some locations, others find it mundane ( Hole # 9)  and others simply want to be steered around the course with visual stimulation.  I recently did an interview where I describe St Andrews as very random in its presentation and seemingly laid out without meaning. The latter so far from the truth

Jim

Interesting comments. I've always had the impression that the Old Course was a bit like that old story of the committee that tried to design a horse and came up with a camel. Basically I tend to see it as a hotch potch of random features. Your last comment suggests otherwise, could you elaborate ?

Niall

[Scott Warren]

The thing I laugh at is people saying how the first time they played, they had no idea where they were meant to hit on several tees. The 7th and maybe the 2nd and/or 3rd I can understand, but aside from that, this has to be a gross exaggeration, yeah?

[Jamie Barber]

Yeah I agree with you on that. I didn't find it disorientating as others have said

[JC Urbina]

Niall

I forgot to contact you when I was in Scotland I wanted to have a more in depth discussion of Sod Wall bunkers. 

The last comment I made concerns the Old course and being random.  When you look at the lay out it has no rhyme or reason.  The art of St Andrews is that it has no formula.  Modern architecture is all about a formula.  Bunkers at 280 yards out greens turned at right angles to increase difficulty.  Mounding that directs play and forces aerial shots to be performed.  So far from the basic foundation of The Old Course.  A course that develops over time or as you noted a" hotch / potch" of ideas can develop into something really good.  although  I know that sometimes inconsistency is the failure of many courses.

[Tim_Weiman]

Jamie Barber:

Can you name three golf courses that are more disorienting than the Old Course, especially for first time visitors?

[George Pazin]

Modern architecture is all about a formula.  Bunkers at 280 yards out greens turned at right angles to increase difficulty.  Mounding that directs play and forces aerial shots to be performed.  So far from the basic foundation of The Old Course.

I often wonder what percentage of golfers fall into the categories where these formulas work; if I were a bettin' man, I'd bet very few.

Yet TOC is still consider the granddaddy, the formula's foundation, if you will. Puzzling, to say the least.

[Melvyn Morrow]

JC

We are back to history again Re TOC as for your comment “When you look at the lay out it has no rhyme or reason”.

There is reason, something we often talk about on GCA.com, but do very little to really imitate which is to really follow Nature and what She originally offered. TOC is born out of and based upon Nature. This very concept might be a problem for many golfers to take on board as most are harmonised to man made natural and faked ‘Nature’ looking modern courses.

The Old Course, is by its nature old and therefore still holds dear to certain aspects of the previous centuries. The blind holes or inability to see let alone focus on the flag is not a problem for many I grew up with, it’s normal and natural to our game. Those who enjoy the game on both side of the pond seem to have their own preferences. TOC is actually a culture shock for many who seem never to have experienced a links course. Parts of TOC has been constructed because land was saved from the sea, The 1st Hole being a classic example plus one or two of the large Greens nearly washed away in the 19th Century. However, thanks to the endeavour of Bruce and Old Tom the sea has slowly been held back.

As for no form, rhyme or reason, I feel that you may have missed the reason why golf flourished for so long on real natural links with of late a little helping hand from man (over the last 160 years).

Welcome to a Links course, to links golf where golf was born.   The Genesis Book of Golf.   In the beginning, there was The Old Course…….

Melvyn

As for sod bunkers, good idea, ask Niall. 

[Bill Gayne]

It's the "ultimate nooks and crannies" golf course. The nooks and crannies aren't known without multiple plays and not immediately appreciated.

[Philippe Binette]

If you go to St Andrews, walk off the bus and play the Old Course and leave... it's not worth it

I understand why people could hate it because of expectations... they think it's going to be spectacular, visually impressive and understandable all at once... three qualities so seek after by publicits. And then they go, that's it, a bumpy open field...

TOC requires time for appreciation, it's not pebble beach dramatic beauty, but if you stop looking for yardages and look around you, it's a great piece of humanized landscape, with the town and all that.

It's not a golf course that you have to see hole per hole, with a clear picture of each one. It might be the world's only golf COURSE... when the entity is more important than the sum of its parts.

TOC, is different, subtle... encourage debate, takes timeand study for appreciation, all sorts of things that our fast and easy world has forgotten

[mike_beene]

That some are underwhelmed is in part the fault of RTJ and Fazio and ,at least for Americans,the glory of overwatered cart courses and a lot of (not all) having been led to believe that America somehow improved on the old.Not all who are underwhelmed have all these qualities.Some people dont like ducking golf balls.I love the place but it took at least 5 times around to start the love.

[Chris Kane]

The thing I laugh at is people saying how the first time they played, they had no idea where they were meant to hit on several tees. The 7th and maybe the 2nd and/or 3rd I can understand, but aside from that, this has to be a gross exaggeration, yeah?

No, its absolutely correct.  When the ideal line from the tee on most holes can vary dramatically depending on the wind and hole location, you need to know the course pretty well to know where to hit it.

There is a great line from David Fay in Ran's write-up: "Anyone who raves about the Old Course after just one or two rounds there is either a liar or a fool".

The first time I saw the Old Course was by walking it on a Sunday afternoon in July 2006.  I can fully appreciate why someone wouldn't appreciate it after such minimal exposure - I was certainly underwhelmed (yet aware that I needed to get to know it better - and assuming it would grow on me).  I wanted to love it, but at that point I didn't know it well enough to honestly say that I did.

I've now gone round it over fifty times, and feel like I know it pretty well.  Its head and shoulders above any other course I've seen.  To me, it epitomises what I love about playing golf.

[Jim Nugent]

That some are underwhelmed is in part the fault of RTJ and Fazio and ,at least for Americans,the glory of overwatered cart courses and a lot of (not all) having been led to believe that America somehow improved on the old.

Put Tilly in the "America improved it" camp.  TOC did not impress him that much, at least as a championship course.  He thought one reason American golfers were beating the Brits so much was courses like TOC were lacking as championship venues.