One question for St Andrew's Old Course haters: Why?

[Scott Warren]

Before and since I played TOC, I have noticed what is a very small percentage in the grand scheme of things, but a not insignificant amount of people who say TOC is rubbish and if they find themselves in St Andrew's again they'll play Kingsbarns or The New Course.

Thing is, not one of them has ever gone into any sort of detail, so I'd love to know what it is that they dislike.

I know a few of them reside on here, and I'm sure there are others on here who share the opinion. My simple question is why?

[Anthony Gray]

  Scott,

  One man's rubbish is an other man's basura. The Mona Lisa is not the hottest chick, but she is still the Mona Lisa. TOC is most likely Number 1 on a golfers must play list.

  Anthony

[Adrian_Stiff]

Firstly I like TOC but those that are not so keen refer to the unfair rumple that exists, when they play for position on the fairway they can get shoots into bunkers when its really fast, when they play approaches the difference of three yards or a quarter club can mean a ball is stopped or runs to a possible 3 putt area. It is not at every hole but it is there and perhaps the shot into 12 has a larger element of luck that is good. It's mainly a good players thing.

[Chris DeNigris]

I dunno, Tiger kinda likes it.

[Mike Wagner]

They probably get bad bounces

[Jamie Barber]

I think it's more that people go there with very high expectations and then are a little underwhelmed. It's unfair to rate it on one visit, but the fees and location mean that one visit is all many will get.

[Scott Warren]

Can you go into a bit more detail Jamie? I'm genuinely curious and I know you are one who came away feeling a bit let down.

[Niall C]

Scott

I certainly don't hate the Old Course but I'm puzzled firstly why it is rated as such a good test of golf and secondly as a great piece of architecture. I think it is OK and has some excellent holes but overall there are quite a few non-descript golf holes and then theres the blindness and lack of definition. Its not that I am some low handicap player either, I'm off 10. I just think the New and Jubilee are better IMHO.

Admittedly I have only played it once, and played it well, but I have walked it on several occasions and watched numerous golf events there so while I don't know the course inimately I do have enough knowledge to form an opinion.

I would also say that my opinion isn't unique in Scotland. I know one person who was brought up and lived within 40 yards of the 17th green, who played off scratch for many years who sort of shrugs when you mention the course. He is fortunate enough to have played the course so many times, and living in the town, that he can see by the romance and the history of the place and judge the course as nice enough but no great shakes.

Niall

[Jamie Barber]

Well I'm not a hater, I was just underwhelmed from my one visit. I did play in awful weather (february, in a gale and below freezing) and that did rather spoil the day, so it's not fair to be overly critical, but I found some holes quite uninteresting (1 and 18 are the obvious ones, but some round the loop too). Golf is quite about escapism for me and the setting didn't especially appeal.

I guess I just expected it to knock my socks off.

I'd like to go back and give it another go, but it's a trek to get to for me and there are other places that cost less I'd rather play first, so I don't have the luxury of learning to appreciate the course. It would cost me the same to go back to RCD hence it would be a no contest for me.

[Adrian_Stiff]

I agree with Jamie, but the original question said hate and thats a strong word. I think the haters are the ones that more simply think there are some bad beats out there.

It is overhyped as a golf course, if 1, 8, 9, 10, 18 were anywhere else they would 5/10 holes but the history adds zillions. I think the 2nd green maybe is a bit too much, 6 is very hard to get up or close, 10 has some crazy pockets on that green it maybe that getting up and down around that green is as much luck as skill, 12 the same.

I still love it though and I don't think the New or Jubillee are as good intinsically as a golf course, the old course still has some great holes where your angles are better from one side than the other.

[Bob_Huntley]

  Scott,

  One man's rubbish is an other man's basura. The Mona Lisa is not the hottest chick, but she is still the Mona Lisa. TOC is most likely Number 1 on a golfers must play list.

  Anthony

Anthony,

I have just noticed the miniature portrait of a convicted felon on your 'letter head,' is he a friend of yours?

Bob

[Matt MacIver]

On the fly home after my first, and only, visit to St. Andrews I told myself if I ever returned I would definitely play Kingsbarns and might try to work in another round at TOC.  I had seen what all the hub-bub was about, played #17 fairly well so what else was there to do? 

Three years later I'm flipping those around...TOC is now back as my #1 must-play in the area (note I REALLY like Kingsbarns).  But TOC's rumbled fariways, massive and undulating greens, and oh yeah the history, grow on you.  When they say that it takes multiple rounds to understand and appreciate the nuances of a course, I think TOC is the blue-print. 

[Adam Clayman]

Just from photos and hearing others, isn't the genius in TOC found in the infinite ways of playing the shots and the course.

And, If that's true, and the golfer who dislikes it, or, is disappointed, is that due to expectations based on exposure to courses with more finite ways to play the shots?  More predictable outcomes?

[David Stamm]

(1 and 18 are the obvious ones, but some round the loop too). Golf is quite about escapism for me and the setting didn't especially appeal.

 

I'd be curious to hear where the pin was cut on these two holes for you. As for escapism, what exactly are you describing? TOC looks like a trip back in time to me.



I don't mean to single Jamie out here, but did not Bobby Jones state that the more he played it the more appreciated it? 

[Grant Saunders]

I have  known a number of people to play the Old Course who have come away somewhat confused.

I think they went there most definitely wanting to like it but it hasnt lived up to their expectations on some level. In a way its like they are almost embarrassed to admit they didnt enjoy it as much as they feel they should have. Its like they are willing themselves to say they like it because it is so unanimously revered.

Perhaps the hype overshadows the experience for many. For someone going to play the most well known and highly rated course in the world how can you not put it on a pedestal and build it up in your mind. A the end of the day it is ultimately just a golf course.

Im sure that of the thousands of people a year the pay to see the mona lisa most of them would admit in private that they dont see what all the fuss is about. They are simply going to see it not as art lovers but because they have been told by society that they should. It has become one of those things you just have to do. I wonder how many people play the Old Course not because they want to but more because they feel they have to.

[Bill_McBride]

I went there excited about playing it because I've always been interested in the Old Course and consequently had done a lot of reading about it, to the point of knowing the names and locations of most all of the bunkers, and not being surprised about how confusing the course can be at first glance.

I had read Bobby Jones' accounts of his early problems and temper tantrums, and his growing to love the course.  I had read how the city of St Andrews gave Bobby the key to the city and the close connection that formed over the years.  I had read that Sam Snead wondered if that was an abandoned farm when he first saw it!  I read about Jack Nicklaus's two victories in 1970 and 1978.

When I finally got to St Andrews and was successful along with my brother on the ballot, I felt like I was at home.  Even though I was only slightly less hungover than the caddies, my excitement level carried me through!

I've been back three times since then and really can't think of any place I'd rather be.

So I guess I can't answer your question about why some people hate the Old Course, because I don't understand the question!

[Tim_Weiman]

Scott,

I recently had the chance to walk the Old Course, my first visit on a Sunday where the opportunity exists to leisurely walk the course and study it without having to worry about how I played.

Before going over a colleague from work told me "he heard St Andrews really isn't a very good course".

Perfect I thought. Let me walk the course trying to understand that point of view. My conclusion is that the course can be very disorienting to a first time visitor, especially for someone accustomed to having everything clearly laid out in front of you. At St Andrews, one repeatedly has a feeling that he isn't sure where to aim or how to play the hole.

I just can't recall any other course that provides that feeling so often....and I believe it is the major reason first time visitors often dislike the course.

[Jamie Barber]

I'd be curious to hear where the pin was cut on these two holes for you. As for escapism, what exactly are you describing? TOC looks like a trip back in time to me.

I don't mean to single Jamie out here, but did not Bobby Jones state that the more he played it the more appreciated it?  

I actually can't remember 1. On 18 it was middle left-ish. My gale assisted drive ended up somewhere near the valley of sin from where it was a fairly standard 2 putt (I was expecting the valley to be some monstrous gouge but it seemed little more than a swale).

For escapism I mean for me the setting did nothing for me (OK so it's fun to hit the last drive towards the town). Naively I just expected some "wow" which I didn't feel.
 
I know the Bobby Jones story well, and I'd love to go and play TOC multiple times to learn to appreciate it, but for me I don't have the luxury with green fees at >£100 a pop and a 12 hour drive.

[Melvyn Morrow]

The Old Course, is the kind and generous Old Lady of Golf, she bring out the best in golfers when her mood is as fine as a gentle warm sunny day. However, beware she can change into the Mother-in-Law who thinks her daughter married beneath her when the weather turns. That is when she shows her teeth, given some of the best golfers a fright and forced them to fight for her generous favour of Par.

All courses need to be played more than once. To honestly justify a comment I feel that 36 holes need to have been played. As I mentioned it applies to all courses, but more so for links courses as the weather gauge plays a key factor in the Old Ladies moods.

Is she a great course, well any course that can level great golfers from time to time, certainly – in my book - deserves the title of a great course. However is she the best, is a totally different question.

As for the haters, some have admitted that they fell by the wayside, through fear/excitement/anticipation, some just had a poor game, some boosted that they came to conquer her, perhaps fortunate it may be have been a good day. Others felt the need to play her just to say they had, but feel little for their efforts.

The Old Lady is open to all advances, yet like the Lady she is, she sometimes keeps her secrets hidden. Nevertheless, watch her moods as she is still young enough to challenge any young dandy and has the ability to put him in his place. Oh, yes again being a Lady she encourages a long courtship so that you get to know each other well.

A hater, nay never, not I, just a true close old family friend

Melvyn 

[Jamie Barber]

Question: is Melvyn's description fair, or dewy-eyed sentimentality?

[Melvyn Morrow]

Fair, due to 40 plus years of golf, started in the early 1960's. But then I am a friend but certainly not dewy-eyed

Melvyn

[Rich Goodale]

As others have said, "hate" does not describe the feeling.  "Underwhelmed architecturally" is probably closer.  Niall and Adrian make the proper points about specific holes.  In addition I would add the fact that on holes 2-7 every tee shot is blind.  This is a cute feature for a hole or two, but 6 holes in a row?  Boring.  I got even Tommy Naccarato to agree with me on this.  Also the right side bunkering on those outward holes is poor--just rows of simple pots that affect only the weakest of players.  John Low should be ashamed.  Also, the fact that most viisitors play from the ~6200 yard tees which makes the course a doddle for the better player.

Everybody should play the Old Course, but you are not required to love it in return.  Look at it critically and ask why you love it, if you do.  Is it due to the architecture?  The quirk?  The fact that you are teeing off away from and finishing towards one of hte finest small towns in the world?  Your drunken caddy?  The friends you are playing with (old and/or new)?  The overall experience?  The je ne said quois?

BTW--vis a vis Bob Jones' famous quote, if you really think about it the more you play ANY golf course the more you grow to appreciate it, because every course has features that are only appreciated over time.  The best courses are those which continue to grow steadily in repeated play.  The lesser ones grow robustly for a time but eventually only in smaller and smaller increments.  Which of these is the Old Course to you?

Rich

[Anthony Gray]

  Well said Rich. Bottom line it is simply "THe Old Course". It is the "experience". The intangibles here are greater than in other course in the world. Hard to pass up when you get the chance no matter how many times you have played it.

  By the way your book is a must for the first time player.

  Does it deserve an Open every five years?

   Anthony

[Mark Pearce]

I have played it twice.  Once, 17 years ago (on honeymoon, of all things, with my wife) as a 19 handicapper new(ish) to the game and again yesterday (with Bryan Izzatt).  I don't remember much of my first game, other than getting lost playing the 7th and finishing 4,4 into the wind.  My overwhelming impression then was of disorientation.  Playing it yesterday I loved it.  Now there were a number of reasons for this.  The weather was perfect, the company was good and my golf was reasonable.  It's great fun.  Trying to describe it to my 13 year old son I called it "a bigger version of Elie".  It's all about the bounce and the run and the quirk and the wind and the bunkers.

If you aren't a romantic and just look at the course as a golf course and if you don't apreciate landing a ball 20 yards short of a green with a short iron and still running 15 yards through the back (as happened to me on my way to making 7 at the 11th) then you won't like the course.  If that sort of thing does appeal, then TOC is the business.  If not (and I think it's quite possible to be an intelligent and informed golfer and not love that sort of thing) then I can see it being a lesser course than an awful lot of others.

[Jamie Barber]

Does it deserve an Open every five years?

That's a good question. On the one hand it would seem not to present sternest challenge, especially when compared to other Open venues. On the other hand, it's hard to argue with the calibre of the champions who've won at St. Andrew's.