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Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Willie Campbell & Myopia
« Reply #1375 on: January 04, 2011, 07:13:01 AM »
After absorbing all the information presented so far I think it is pretty clear Willie Campbell deserves lone credit for designing the original golf course. The question remains where did the story about the Squire & Co come from. I have no idea, and no one else seems to know either. I suspect one of two possibilities. Someone just made it up, perhaps in attempt to mirror the story of TCC origins when three members laid out a six-hole course over and around the race course in 1893. The second more likely scenario IMO, the Squire & Co began playing golf somewhere on the Myopia property in 1893. Forget the part about the snow melting, I think that was clearly an embellishment by Weeks. Forget the part about the sod being laid, sod may have been laid at some point, but it wouldn't have been 1893, or probably even 1894.

I can see the three members after being exposed to golf at TCC in 1893, and Essex which had a crude golf course in 1893 (a five hole course shaped like a diamond), probably batting the ball around Myopia. There is no mention of anyone playing golf at Myopia in 1893 so my guess would be they were playing very informally. No golf course per say, but a hole or two or three, that could be approached from different angles. And then the following spring, led by the Squire & Co prodding, the club voted to build a formal golf course. How's that for speculation.

The question remains why, when and by whom did Campbell get written out of the story. I've speculated it may been from an earlier history book in 1941. Another possibility is Leeds himself wrote Campbell out of the story for whatever reason.

Mike Cirba

Re: Willie Campbell & Myopia
« Reply #1376 on: January 04, 2011, 09:18:25 AM »
Tom,

All interesting speculation, and you may be correct, but without someone here actually viewing any internal documents and/or administrative records that may exist at Myopia we are basing this entire discussion on a series of copied gossip column articles from the Opening Day tournament that have been shown in many instances to be almost frightfully wrong and uninformed as to the particulars of the then-nascent game.

So, the best any of us can do is speculate, and sometimes grossly so, unfortunately.

Personally, I'd love to see if a copy of the original history book you referenced is available anywhere...perhaps Library of Congress, but suspect based on the title that it may be much more about the Hunt, than about golf.

I do understand why David, and perhaps you, would simply like to close the book on this one and consider it done, but way too many things don't make sense, or sit right, and with only partial evidence at your/our disposal you can never really settle these matters anyway.  

For instance, assuming Campbell laid out the course, why would he, with untold acreage at his disposal, suggest they use land that was owned by Dr. Hopkins, particularly since that land is low-lying and sort of swampy?

How many 2,050 yard courses did Campbell lay out?   Doesn't that seem to be a very short course, even for those times?

Why is there no other mention of Campbell laying out the course at Myopia than in those Opening Day articles, and we know for a fact that these gossip columns either stole shamelessly from each other, or else it was the same writer penning for multiple papers.

You also have no further mention of any involvement of Campbell in the changes to the layout over the next few years, even during the 1896 summer that Campbell was pro there...everyone at the time credited Leeds.  

There is also the almost continual confusion in every article of the time that mentions the new course at Myopia almost synonymously with the new course at Essex that we know Campbell laid out, culminating in ridiculousness with the report that the opening day tournament at Myopia actually happened in Manchester on the Essex course!  

Hardly something to close the book on, as much as we'd all like closure.

As regards Campbell and his employment at/with Myopia, I put together the following timeline to try and understand how he might have been omitted by Weeks, and what might have happened with him during that period and would certainly appreciate your input and any corrections you feel are appropriate.   Let me know what you think.

March 1896 - The New York Times reports that a Mr. Weir is likely going to be the new pro at The Country Club as it has been decided (without explanation) not to renew Mr. Campbell's contract this year.'

Spring 1896 - Campbell visits Philadelphia and lays out a few courses, including nine holes for the Merion Cricket Club.

July 1896 - The first mention of Campbell playing golf for Myopia in professional tournaments.   I believe it can be reasonably assumed that he was hired for the season that began in June.

October 1896 - The last mention of Campbell playing golf for Myopia in professional tournaments.    The public course at Franklin Park opens this same month.

November 1896 - It was reported that Campbell has been retained as "greenkeeper" at Franklin Park and has been very busy at it.   The article speculates that once he gets things running properly that he may get permission to give lessons during certain hours of the morning.

May 1897 - It is reported that the Franklin Park course is not ready yet and that the Commissioners are dragging their feet on contracting Campbell to be the greenkeeper, or perhaps Campbell was not going to sign the contract without sufficient workers being provided.  During this period it seems Campbell is keeping the greens cut, but the grass is so high on the fairways as to discourage any playing.  

July 1897 - It is reported that after many weeks of waiting, the situation (and presumably Campbell's contractual arrangements) at Franklin Park regarding conditions has been resolved.

This timeline leads me to a few questions....I'm wondering if his engagement with Franklin Park didn't somehow sour his relations at Myopia?   Those courses are about 30 miles away from each other and if he was involved with the startup of the FP course it may have conflicted with his expected duties at Myopia perhaps?     I'm also wondering exactly why his employment with TCC and Essex ended.

I also wonder exactly what his duties at Myopia involved?   Unlike when he was employed originally at TCC and Essex, I have been unable to find any newspaper documentation mentioning where and when of the particulars of his employment at Myopia.   Did his role include greenkeeping, clubmaking, lessons?   Or was he simply their playing professional?   Hard to know from what is documented.

Any additional information you might have to shed light on these questions would be helpful, Tom...thanks.

« Last Edit: January 04, 2011, 09:33:18 AM by MCirba »

Mike Cirba

Re: Willie Campbell & Myopia
« Reply #1377 on: January 04, 2011, 09:31:14 AM »

And I have always acknowledged that he (Wilson) "helped largely in the planning of the holes" at Merion.   This is what was happening at NGLA, and during the few weeks between NGLA and when CBM and HJW returned to finalize their layout plan, and then probably even after the plan CBM approved had been submitted to the board and construction began.  


David,

If this is what you've always acknowledged, it would have been great if we all caught on quicker and saved ourselves about three man-years worth of debate and contentiousness.  
 
All that time, against any and all evidence to the contrary,  I thought you had steadfastly and stubbornly defended the main theme of your IMO piece, which reads;

Synopsis. While Hugh I. Wilson is credited with designing the great Merion East course that opened in 1912, he did not plan the original layout or conceive of the holes. H.H. Barker first sketched out a routing the summer of 1910, but shortly thereafter Barker’s plans were largely modified or perhaps even completely replaced by the advice provided by the famous amateur golfers, C.B. Macdonald and H.J. Whigham who provided their written opinion of what could be done with the land. Richard Francis and H.G. Lloyd of Merion also contributed to the routing plan. After the course was planned and land finally purchased, Merion appointed Hugh Wilson and his “Construction Committee” to build the golf course.


I'm not sure how your statement above squares with your original synopsis, but it's great to see you've come around so like Tom MacWood, I have no interest in rehashing the Merion debate but found your sudden agreement with the gossip piece I posted to be pleasantly unexpected, to say the least.

As far as your question about contemporaneous materials at Myopia, I think my response to Tom MacWood makes clear my position.

If you actually want to have a discussion with me this year, I'd suggest you stop your habitual continued personal insults in your posts, and your YELLING of questions.    I love to discuss these topics but I'm not going to engage in or entertain that type of behavior.    I'd like to have a much more pleasant time here this year and I hope you do, as well.

Thanks.




« Last Edit: January 04, 2011, 09:53:42 AM by MCirba »

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Willie Campbell & Myopia
« Reply #1378 on: January 04, 2011, 10:12:14 AM »
Campbell laid out quite a few courses around 2000 yards, the course Joe B found a couple of days ago was 2000 yards. Your timeline for Campbell has been discussed numerous times on this thread, I'm not sure why you need to rehash it unless you're trying to create some more doubt he worked at the club. And the timeline of events is consistent with golf season at Myopia begining in June. He worked at Myopia one season.

One more time, he worked at Essex County in the summer of 1894, that is it. He worked at TCC in 1894 & 1895. It was widely reported at the end of 1895 TCC would not be rehiring him. Are you having trouble following this?

Why would his duties at Myopia be any different than his duties at the other clubs he worked? Playing professional? This isn't 1960, Sam Snead & The Greenbriar. You are grasping for straws.

If the course was changed in 1895 then once again TEP and his supposed board minutes have been proven wrong. And I do think there is distinct possibility the course was changed in 1895, and quite possibly Leeds was involved, and I wouldn't be surprised if Campbell was also involved since Leeds wasn't a member at the time. I believe the first pro at Palmetto was one of Campbell's assistants, which is also interesting to note.

There is no place for Merion on this thread...please show some self controll.
« Last Edit: January 04, 2011, 10:14:23 AM by Tom MacWood »

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Willie Campbell & Myopia
« Reply #1379 on: January 04, 2011, 10:21:53 AM »
If this is what you've always acknowledged, it would have been great if we all caught on quicker and saved ourselves about three man-years worth of debate and contentiousness.  
 
All that time, against any and all evidence to the contrary,  I thought you had steadfastly and stubbornly defended the main theme of your IMO piece, which reads;

Mike,  It would have been great if you had all caught on earlier, but that is indeed what I have always acknowledged.   Perhaps if you had read past the  "Synopsis" you'd have been able to catch on.   While it is accurate, the synopsis is not a "theme" nor is it even the body of the work, it is a brief and general overview and preview, but the paper itself fleshes out the ideas in much more detail and included discussions of Wilson helping with the planning both at NGLA and even after the course was initially built, you'd have figured this out.    Had I only wanted to state what was in the synopsis, I'd have quit there, and apparently you did.  

______________________________

As for my bolding and capitalizing my questions, I am hoping you might notice them enough to answer them.  

As for what you term as personal insults, they are accurate reflections of what you are doing here.  Nothing personal at all.  

Are you ever going to answer the questions, Mike?  
« Last Edit: January 04, 2011, 11:13:56 AM by DMoriarty »
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Mike Cirba

Re: Willie Campbell & Myopia
« Reply #1380 on: January 04, 2011, 10:48:30 AM »
Campbell laid out quite a few courses around 2000 yards, the course Joe B found a couple of days ago was 2000 yards. Your timeline for Campbell has been discussed numerous times on this thread, I'm not sure why you need to rehash it unless you're trying to create some more doubt he worked at the club. And the timeline of events is consistent with golf season at Myopia begining in June. He worked at Myopia one season.

One more time, he worked at Essex County in the summer of 1894, that is it. He worked at TCC in 1894 & 1895. It was widely reported at the end of 1895 TCC would not be rehiring him. Are you having trouble following this?

Why would his duties at Myopia be any different than his duties at the other clubs he worked? Playing professional? This isn't 1960, Sam Snead & The Greenbriar. You are grasping for straws.

If the course was changed in 1895 then once again TEP and his supposed board minutes have been proven wrong. And I do think there is distinct possibility the course was changed in 1895, and quite possibly Leeds was involved, and I wouldn't be surprised if Campbell was also involved since Leeds wasn't a member at the time. I believe the first pro at Palmetto was one of Campbell's assistants, which is also interesting to note.

There is no place for Merion on this thread...please show some self controll.

Tom,

I'm not trying to create doubt that he worked at Myopia....I'm trying to understand the reason(s) why that might have been either skipped in Weeks's account, or per your speculation, written out of the history by Leeds and/or others.

I'm not sure why any of the questions I posed are cause for indignation or frustration on your part, Tom.   They certainly seem pretty obvious to me.

Why after bringing him over as a champion golfer who seemed popular and even celebrated early on did TCC opt to sever their relations with him after only two seasons?   

His time at Myopia is very poorly documented...the only references I can find simply mention he's associated with the club during reports of professional tournaments.   

Why the overlap to Franklin Park duties during the latter part of his one and only season at Myopia?   

I'm just thinking if there was some bad blood spilt during that time it may explain more about why his involvement was either not documented well, or as you suggested, possibly expunged.

While I think it's been really a good thread here overall, there are obvious gaps, such as what any club records might say on the matter.

If it were simply a case of Weeks stating that AM&G designed the course, I might be willing to just dismiss this as an error, but for May to state the exact same thing before Weeks book was even published and also to include information that Weeks did not leads me to conclude we're all playing here with half-a-deck, and we don't have all the facts at our mutual disposal.

I also respect what Campbell did, and his involvement with public course golf very early on makes him a bit of a hero in my eyes.   I just don't think questioning what he actually did, as well as questioning the actual quality of his architecture versus some attempted post-mortem canonization of the man serves to diminish him in the least.   I think it shows a truer story, warts and all.

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Willie Campbell & Myopia
« Reply #1381 on: January 04, 2011, 01:33:34 PM »

Tom,

I'm not trying to create doubt that he worked at Myopia....I'm trying to understand the reason(s) why that might have been either skipped in Weeks's account, or per your speculation, written out of the history by Leeds and/or others.

I'm not sure why any of the questions I posed are cause for indignation or frustration on your part, Tom.   They certainly seem pretty obvious to me.

Why after bringing him over as a champion golfer who seemed popular and even celebrated early on did TCC opt to sever their relations with him after only two seasons?  

His time at Myopia is very poorly documented...the only references I can find simply mention he's associated with the club during reports of professional tournaments.  

Why the overlap to Franklin Park duties during the latter part of his one and only season at Myopia?  

I'm just thinking if there was some bad blood spilt during that time it may explain more about why his involvement was either not documented well, or as you suggested, possibly expunged.

While I think it's been really a good thread here overall, there are obvious gaps, such as what any club records might say on the matter.

If it were simply a case of Weeks stating that AM&G designed the course, I might be willing to just dismiss this as an error, but for May to state the exact same thing before Weeks book was even published and also to include information that Weeks did not leads me to conclude we're all playing here with half-a-deck, and we don't have all the facts at our mutual disposal.

I also respect what Campbell did, and his involvement with public course golf very early on makes him a bit of a hero in my eyes.   I just don't think questioning what he actually did, as well as questioning the actual quality of his architecture versus some attempted post-mortem canonization of the man serves to diminish him in the least.   I think it shows a truer story, warts and all.

Mike
I believe the severing of ties at TCC was a mutual agreement. Campbell wanted more money devoted to improving the golf course and the club did not. Not only did he leave but many of the club's best golfers left for Myopia, including Leeds and Quincy Adams Shaw.

IMO Campbell's stint at Myopia is not poorly documented. Tournament play is normally how you track where a professional is working - the US Open, w/Leeds & Shaw (July); a match at Meadow Brook w/Leeds & Henry (July); a home and home match with Newport CC (Sept) w/ Shaw & Henry; w/ Leeds, Shaw, Henry, Longworth, Appleton; another match at Meadow Brook (Oct), and St. Andrews (Nov). You have numerous obituaries mentioning him being the pro at Myopia, plus the article about Mrs. Campbell. That is pretty well documented.

There is no overlap between Myopia and Franklin Park that I know of. He laid out Franklin Park late in 1896, but the first mention of him working there is 1897, pretty late in 1897. There is no evidence there was any bad blood. The first patrons of Franklin Park were the same folks who played at Brookline and Myopia; it wasn't your average public course at the beginning. It was fairly expensive and required you be an experienced golfer.
« Last Edit: January 04, 2011, 01:38:30 PM by Tom MacWood »

Mike Cirba

Re: Willie Campbell & Myopia
« Reply #1382 on: January 04, 2011, 01:39:51 PM »
Tom,

When Campbell moved back and forth between TCC and Essex there were articles that documented that.   I haven't been able to find any indicating that he had taken a position at Myopia.

As far as Franklin Park, I have one that has him there in November 1896, and which says he has been very busy, and that he may get permission to give lessons a few hours in the mornings once things get up and running satisfactorily.

Since the course opened for play on October 27th, 1896, and since he had to design it sometime prior to then, I assume there was some overlap in his responsibilities with Myopia, leading me to speculate that his might perhaps have been some cause for consternation at the club.    Perhaps not, but there was some overlap in timing.

« Last Edit: January 04, 2011, 01:42:58 PM by MCirba »

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Willie Campbell & Myopia
« Reply #1383 on: January 04, 2011, 01:51:05 PM »
Tom,

When Campbell moved back and forth between TCC and Essex there were articles that documented that.   I haven't been able to find any indicating that he had taken a position at Myopia.

As far as Franklin Park, I have one that has him there in November 1894, and which says he has been very busy, and that he may get permission to give lessons a few hours in the mornings once things get up and running satisfactorily.

Since the course opened for play on October 27th, 1894, and since he had to design it sometime prior to then, I assume there was some overlap in his responsibilities with Myopia, leading me to speculate that his might perhaps have been some cause for consternation at the club.    Perhaps not, but there was some overlap in timing.



Franklin Park opened 10/26/1896, not 1894, and there was no mention of Campbell when the course opened. On October 20 he was playing in a golf tournament representing Myopia.

I've not seen any announcement of his hire at Myopia or Franklin Park. Its possible he left Myopia in November. That wouldn't be surprising, I don't think there was much winter golf to be played at either location.

Mike Cirba

Re: Willie Campbell & Myopia
« Reply #1384 on: January 04, 2011, 01:52:05 PM »
Tom,

Here's the portion of the article from November 21st, 1896 that discusses Campbell's activities to date at Franklin Park.   As mentioned, the course opened October 27th, 1896***;




***Note*** I caught and since edited my mistake about 1894...thanks.
« Last Edit: January 04, 2011, 01:53:39 PM by MCirba »

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Willie Campbell & Myopia
« Reply #1385 on: January 04, 2011, 02:05:25 PM »
There you go, another mention of him being the pro at Myopia (past tense). It is pretty well documented wouldn't you say?

I don't think there is any evidence there was any bad blood at Myopia. Like I said the early patrons of Franklin Park were well seasoned golfers like Fenn (Leeds' rival and friend). The names Mrs. Campbell mentioned at FP were the Sargents, the Olmsteds, the Hoopers, and the Shaws. And she made a point of saying that the course was better than Brookline. If there was any bad blood it was more likely with Brookline.

Why does it matter if he left Myopia because of bad blood?
« Last Edit: January 04, 2011, 02:07:02 PM by Tom MacWood »

Mike Cirba

Re: Willie Campbell & Myopia
« Reply #1386 on: January 04, 2011, 02:21:32 PM »
Tom,

I'm completely in agreement that he was pro at Myopia that summer...just wondering if it was more of a travelling competitor gig than a "in the shop" doing club-making and lessons type of deal, but also agree with you that this should have been in the club history book.  

As far as your question, the "bad blood" only matters to your speculative point about Leeds or someone there "writing him out" of the club's administrative records and history.

I think that's unlikely...I'm just exploring any possible reasons that might have been the case.  

Or, perhaps given that he had friends within the club that came with him from TCC they were paying him "under the table", in which case there wouldn't necessarily have been an administrative record of it that Weeks or anyone else could have found in their search.   Of course, that's speculative, as well.

Phil_the_Author

Re: Willie Campbell & Myopia
« Reply #1387 on: January 04, 2011, 02:40:28 PM »
MIke,

Once again a reference to a possible 2nd course at Myopia. First was the article that mentioned the "two links" and now this new article in which it refers to Campbell working last year at the "Myopias"... Note, it is plural. Isre any possibility that another course either nearby or maybe one of the private courses of those mentioned as founders was also known either privately or publicly as "Myopia?"

If so it would certainly aid in both really messing up the understandings of some as well as provide answers to seeming contradictions...

Mike Cirba

Re: Willie Campbell & Myopia
« Reply #1388 on: January 04, 2011, 03:34:35 PM »
Phil,

It sure is perplexing language used in many of these old articles.

I'm not sure however that they didn't use "links" synonymously with "holes", as I've seen an article that paraphrased stated something like, "the course covers 2 and a half miles with nine links."

Insane arcane.

Phil_the_Author

Re: Willie Campbell & Myopia
« Reply #1389 on: January 04, 2011, 03:37:58 PM »
Well that makes two contmporaneous accounts now of Myopia possibly having not one but TWO courses...  ;D

Mike Cirba

Re: Willie Campbell & Myopia
« Reply #1390 on: January 04, 2011, 03:41:04 PM »
Well that makes two contmporaneous accounts now of Myopia possibly having not one but TWO courses...  ;D

Phil,

Actually, that's THREE contemporaneous accounts of multiple courses at Myopia.

I vote that they had multiple courses based on the clear evidence.  ;) 


Tom MacWood,

I'm KIDDING!!!   ;D

Phil_the_Author

Re: Willie Campbell & Myopia
« Reply #1391 on: January 04, 2011, 04:56:47 PM »
Don't be so quick to disbelieve Mike. It is my understanding that after the "short nine" and before the "Long nine" that they hired "Goldilocks" bearbuster who designed a nine hole course that the book editor reviewed and said was "just right!"

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Willie Campbell & Myopia
« Reply #1392 on: January 04, 2011, 07:34:13 PM »
Tom,

I'm completely in agreement that he was pro at Myopia that summer...just wondering if it was more of a travelling competitor gig than a "in the shop" doing club-making and lessons type of deal, but also agree with you that this should have been in the club history book.  

As far as your question, the "bad blood" only matters to your speculative point about Leeds or someone there "writing him out" of the club's administrative records and history.

I think that's unlikely...I'm just exploring any possible reasons that might have been the case.  

Or, perhaps given that he had friends within the club that came with him from TCC they were paying him "under the table", in which case there wouldn't necessarily have been an administrative record of it that Weeks or anyone else could have found in their search.   Of course, that's speculative, as well.

Mike
I don't believe it either. There is nothing to indicate there was any bad blood, and even if there was that would only explain an omission a decade or two after the fact. Certainly no one would have bad feelings eighty years after the fact.

And I think it is very unlikely there are any administrative records, TEP sold you and us a bill of goods. That is obvious. There is nothing in that history book that would indicate there are any records on the early history of the golf club or golf course, which is why Weeks was forced to rely on Bush's remembrance. And as far as I am concerned the idea that the administrative records don't mention Campbell (for whatever reason) is no excuse for Weeks not knowing. If he did just a minimal amount of research he would uncovered the Campbell connection. The level research that went into this book is really pathetic.

Mike Cirba

Re: Willie Campbell & Myopia
« Reply #1393 on: January 05, 2011, 07:02:46 AM »
Tom,

I wouldn't rush to make that same value judgment.  

Without knowing what internal documents, minutes, and/or records Weeks used, and whether or not he believed they were definitive I think that's very premature.

Don't forget...Weeks didn't have the easy access of being able to search across vintage newspapers in seconds back in 1975 as we do today.   If he based his book totally on internal documents, believing them to be comprehensive and inclusive, then he could hardly be faulted, frankly.

I think what may have happened is that any "laid out" work Campbell did for Myopia was simply considered part of his duties as professional/greenkeeper at TCC and Essex, and likely no separate record or payment of it existed at Myopia, and similarly his very short four-month stint as pro at Myopia may have been paid "off the books" by friends who went there with him from TCC.  

I do believe that it's too coincidental that both May and Weeks working separately would get the same three members right as having laid out the first course, and with May providing additional info about the course being 2,050 yards there has to be some record somewhere that this happened that these men were gathering this information from.   I also believe that the course that opened in June 1894 was indeed "sodded", much like the Appleton farm course that Joe documented, and much like S. Dacre Bush recalled.

I don't believe someone made up this whole creation story...basically created a lie...out of thin air.

Whether or not the member-designed course was what Campbell "laid out" for the club that they played on in June 1894, or whether it was some temporary, provisional course they played til Campbell created something more formal by June we'll probably never know, even with access to the internal documents.  

Unfortunately, sometimes we're lucky to even get a partial record of events on these very old courses.  
« Last Edit: January 05, 2011, 07:09:04 AM by MCirba »

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Willie Campbell & Myopia
« Reply #1394 on: January 05, 2011, 08:43:52 AM »
Mike
There is nothing in that book that gives any indication the man had access to internal documents. He does not quote from TEP's board minutes. He does not know the date of the annual meeting in 1894. He has no idea Campbell laid out the original course. He has no idea when the original nine was changed or how it was changed. He does not know precisely when the course was expanded to 18 holes. He has no idea when or in what capacity White and Campbell worked for the club.

Good researchers have been scowering old newspapers using microfische for a long time, and still do. Do you think researching old magazines and newspapers was invented with online digitized sites? There is no excuse. The level research that went into this book is really pathetic.

Mike Cirba

Re: Willie Campbell & Myopia
« Reply #1395 on: January 05, 2011, 09:03:03 AM »
Tom,

We don't know what exactly he accessed internally, do we?   We know he references the "Run Book" various times, quotes from S. Dacre Bush, and refers to Leeds' Scrapbook.   In any case, I don't think either one of us actually knows what those things entail, what they document, and/or when they were written so again I think we need to be careful before casting aspersions.

He tried to write it as a story book for the members.   It was not written as a research piece with footnotes and bibliography.

As someone who searched old newspapers on microfiche 20 years ago to find course attributions on courses much more obscure and mundane than Myopia, I do get where you are coming from in your criticism there, but if Weeks thought what he had internally was comprehensive I can't fault him.

And then...there's that pesky John P. May report in Golf Digest that preceded Weeks book which cited the same members designing the original nine, so that information had to come from somewhere.  

We just don't know the source.

Joe Bausch

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Willie Campbell & Myopia
« Reply #1396 on: January 05, 2011, 08:40:44 PM »
(and what could be my best ever. . .       ;).      )



































Bump!




@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Willie Campbell & Myopia
« Reply #1397 on: January 07, 2011, 12:32:04 AM »
And I think it is very unlikely there are any administrative records, TEP sold you and us a bill of goods. That is obvious. There is nothing in that history book that would indicate there are any records on the early history of the golf club or golf course, which is why Weeks was forced to rely on Bush's remembrance. And as far as I am concerned the idea that the administrative records don't mention Campbell (for whatever reason) is no excuse for Weeks not knowing. If he did just a minimal amount of research he would uncovered the Campbell connection. The level research that went into this book is really pathetic.

TMac,

Hmmm, I don't know about that conclusion.  It does seem apparent that the club had a secretary and meeting minutes, as the date of the annual meeting in Boston was recorded.  Do you think he folded up the pad and stopped taking notes at that point?  Ditto with a secretary for the Golf Committee in Bush, and even the Bush remembrances.  Why would a club ask him to write them (or he take it on himself) if they hadn't had an interest in recording their history and actions?

What about meetings and a secretary suggests to you there were no admin records, at least initially?  (they may have been damaged or lost later)

At least, that's how I see it......
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Willie Campbell & Myopia
« Reply #1398 on: January 07, 2011, 07:35:28 AM »
What was the date of the annual meeting?

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Willie Campbell & Myopia
« Reply #1399 on: January 07, 2011, 10:46:10 AM »
Typical TMac BS to avoid the obvious and deflect from the fact that someone has pointed out his clearly erroneous logic and bombast as to the club records.

To answer his non-question, I believe DM posted who the club secretary was for 1894, when Bush was club secretary, etc.  It may or may not have been he who posted the date of the meeting in this thread, but I am not going back through to look it up and play his games.

As to his second point, I actually kind of concur, but would put a slightly different spin on it.  If Weeks had wanted to be as thorough in his research as he could, he would have looked up a few outside sources like newspapers of the day.  Of course, if TMac and others wanted to be as thorough as they could now, they would look up old club records rather than try to contend they don't exist. 

That the two accounts come to different conclusions using totally different sources shouldn't surprise us, should it?  To use a phrase often bandied about here, it would seem more "intellectually honest" to dig deeper and find out if there was a reason WC wasn't mentioned (lost records, different employment arrangement) than to merely assume Weeks got it wrong.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach