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Mike Cirba

Re: Willie Campbell & Myopia
« Reply #625 on: December 10, 2010, 07:27:04 AM »


Mike
You brought it up. If you weren't willing to share the information don't think you should have kept it to yourself? Who is the owner?


But Tom...I am willing to share any information from the book and have already.   You just don't seem to want to accept it.

What would you like to know?

I already shared the illuminating drawing of Tweedie's nine hole course for Atlantic City the other day and was told that the owner did not want the book physically reproduced so I respect his wishes...I do wish I could show you the drawings of Campbell's work at Merion and Huntingdon Valley, as well, frankly.  

But more I wish I could show you Belmont.   As mentioned, whatever the plans in 1896 for Campbell to design an 18 hole, a nine hole, and a woman's course there never came to fruition, and by 1898 the club was still playing at their nine hole course designed by Dr. Toulmin, who fifteen years later served on Merion's Committee, and Harrison Townsend, and a third member.   That attribution is cited in the book, but you refuse to acknowledge that fact.

The course itself looks to be the most interesting of all those early Philly courses.  As mentioned, the third green was surrounded on three sides by a creek, and the fourth was a par three perched on the edge of a quarry.   There was very little in the way of crossing hazards, and it looked a step ahead of the rest architecturally.

In any case, I also previously cited for you from the book that a dozen years before he was to lead the Merion Committee, Hugh Wilson at the early age of 18 was already one of the very best golfers in Philadelphia, having won the first club championship at Belmont (which became Aronimink), and was a scratch player when the next best player in the club was Harrison Townsend who played to an eight.   Wilson also was "first man" on Belmont's golf team, so he was something of a boy wonder in these parts in early Philly golf circles, as opposed to the ignorant insurance man you've portrayed him to be.

Each course/club profile lists the architecture, the membership committees, a drawing of the course, photos, a listing of all the members, and any and all other pertinent info.

It's also where I found that the Green Committee had largely revised and extended Campbell's course at Huntingdon Valley in the first year of play.   It's also where it is listed that Philadelphia Country Club was designed by the members with help from pro Harry Gullane...Campbell is not listed although the one news article Joe found says he did offer some "suggestions".

Yet, despite all of the evidence I gave to you here already, your "list" for Campbell architecture continues to list Belmont, Philly Country Club, and Huntingdon Valley as his creations, which is inaccurate, or highly misleading.

I would think an accurate portrayal of his architecture would be more beneficial to his memory.   No need to fluff him up, Tom...he was an important figure no doubt, but to cite him as some great early architect is really not an accurate portrayal.


David,

In the 1940s, Byron Nelson was the pro here at Reading Country Club, Ben Hogan played out of Hershey Country Club, and as Tom mentioned, George Fazio was the "pro" at Pine Valley.

I seriously doubt they were in the shop shilling golf shirts and balls, but instead merely representing these clubs as something like figureheads, which given Campbell's expansive duties around Boston in 1896 seems to be a similar situation as Jeff pointed out.


Jeff,

I do think Campbell likely had some input into the design of the original Myopia course if he laid it out on the ground as those early news accounts tell us.  

As I mentioned, I think the members staked out the course in early spring and then Campbell helped them build it, probably offering his own insight.

I don't see the accounts as mutually exclusive in the least.  
« Last Edit: December 10, 2010, 09:12:54 AM by MCirba »

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Willie Campbell & Myopia
« Reply #626 on: December 10, 2010, 07:38:17 AM »
Phil
In my post just prior to yours I highlighted TEP's statement below and said it was speculation presented as fact, and presumably that is why you posted your quote:

"I note that in the 1896 to 1897 timeframe or perhaps even the 1895 to 1897 timeframe Robert White was actually Myopia's permanent professional..."

Obviously the fact White was in Cincinnati in 1896 had everything to do with TEP's statement. White being at Myopia in 1894 has nothing to do with who designed Myopia either so I was curious why chose not to include it. Just wondering.

Phil_the_Author

Re: Willie Campbell & Myopia
« Reply #627 on: December 10, 2010, 08:20:12 AM »
Tom,

"White being at Myopia in 1894 has nothing to do with who designed Myopia either so I was curious why chose not to include it..."

I disagree with that statement and here is why. Part of the rationale presented as "proof" to why Campbell must have designed Myopia is because of the newspaper accounts that you presented. The problem that I have is that they are portraying him as the PRO at Myopia as well as the one who "laid out" the course.

If Robert White was actually the pro at at time and NOT Campbell, then the veracity of everything else in the article must be called into question. Typically, especially at a new course where a Scot was brought in as professional, he would be expected to either design and/or lay out the course, yet here we have a case of an important club that appears to have not done that. That is why I believe that it is important to identify exactly WHAT each of those two were doing at Myopia in 1894. For example, as the Professional hired by Myopia, was White ONLY responsible for the maintenance of the golf course and the making of the golf clubs? That was a common set of the primary duties that the professional, especially if he was Scottish, would have expected of him at many turn of the century courses. Was Campbell hired to give lessons ONLY? Or was he there on a very limited basis for a short period of time and, if so, why? All of these questions are important because if he was hired by Myopia to lay out and/or design the golf course, one must wonder WHY he wasn't hired to be the professional there as White evidently was.

There are social dynamics to this that need looking into that may explain the why's of what actually happened, and though you don't take Tom Paul's claim of understanding the social dynamics of either the class of people or the specific club members as being of true import in this historical question, the fact that White was the professional and not Campbell certainly leads one to believe that it was important.

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Willie Campbell & Myopia
« Reply #628 on: December 10, 2010, 08:26:44 AM »
Phil
Its no big deal I was just curious. TEP & Jeff had just been speculating that Campbell was working simulatenously with White in 1896...perhaps you weren't following the thread. Carry on.

Phil_the_Author

Re: Willie Campbell & Myopia
« Reply #629 on: December 10, 2010, 08:35:48 AM »
No Tom,

I've been following this from the beginning. I just became curious about White and his role and the dynamics of it.

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Willie Campbell & Myopia
« Reply #630 on: December 10, 2010, 09:00:27 AM »
TMac,

Just so we are clear on the dynamics of this discussion when you are involved is this a true statement:

If you post/discuss a newspaper article its "verifiable evidence."

If I re-post Neil C's newspaper article about WC accepting an appointment as greenkeeper to Boston GC, its speculation.

If Mike C or TePaul retypes something from a document they have seen, its speculation.

Do I have that about right?
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Mike Cirba

Re: Willie Campbell & Myopia
« Reply #631 on: December 10, 2010, 09:19:40 AM »
Tom MacWood,

This is the type of Info found in the Sennat book, which I'm transcribing;

       The Belmont Golf Association
               colors, Red, White, and Black

Locality At Forty-Ninth Street Station, on the Pennsylvania Railroad.   Ten minutes from Broad St. Station

Organized December, 1896

Annual Meeting Second Thursday in December

Membership Charges Twenty dollars per year, including Club House privileges of the Belmont Cricket Club, whose members only are eligible 

      Officers for the Current Year

 etc ...
        .....

         Par of Greens is 84
         Scratch is 90

            List of Players to 14 Handicap
                    (18 Holes)

Hugh I. Wilson        0               Dr. H.W. Cattell 14
Harrison Townsend  8               Crawford Coates 14
M. B. Huff               8               J.A. Scott          14

                
              Record for 18 Holes
         By a Member (In Competition)

Out 4, 6, 5, 3, 4, 5, 4, 7, 6 = 44
In   5, 7, 6, 4, 5, 4, 5, 6, 5 = 47  Total =91

Made by Hugh I. Wilson

....

Links laid out by H. Townsend, Dr. H. Toulmin, Dr. J.A. Davis

Number of Holes Nine

and so on...
« Last Edit: December 10, 2010, 10:02:24 AM by MCirba »

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Willie Campbell & Myopia
« Reply #632 on: December 10, 2010, 10:24:54 AM »
Phil, If you have been following the discussion then I really don't understand why you would neglect to mention that White was in Cincinnati in 1896.    Campbell was the professional at Myopia in 1896, not 1894.  In 1894 he was at the Country Club until May and then at Essex.  So this conflict with White and Campbell being the pro there at the same time is of your own creation, yet your own information shows that this was not the case.

And, given that TEPaul has claimed that the Myopia records indicate that White was the professional in 1896 and 1897, we have yet another reason to doubt this alleged source.

Yet you "put more faith" in TEPaul's account of what the supposed records say than in every other source?   Fascinating analysis.  Does this include the source you just quoted (or neglected to quote) about White being in Ohio in 1896?
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Willie Campbell & Myopia
« Reply #633 on: December 10, 2010, 10:58:59 AM »
According to those articles Neil C posted, it appears Campbell went right to Brookline. It says in 1894 he was at Boston CC, but in 1895 he was "re-engaged" at Brookline, sounding like that was the same club.

It does say he left Brookline in Nov 1895, so DM could be right that he was engaged at Myopia for a year, but from where do we see Willie was hired at Myopia? 

And, the implications earlier were that he was the pro at MH in 1894, which is why he laid out the course, no?  Since Leeds is widely credited with the expansion in 1896, was Campbell hired to construct the links?  And, if he left for Philly right after, I gather he felt that was his true calling, despite his playing reputation?
« Last Edit: December 10, 2010, 11:02:13 AM by Jeff_Brauer »
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Willie Campbell & Myopia
« Reply #634 on: December 10, 2010, 11:01:06 AM »
TMac,

Just so we are clear on the dynamics of this discussion when you are involved is this a true statement:

If you post/discuss a newspaper article its "verifiable evidence."

If I re-post Neil C's newspaper article about WC accepting an appointment as greenkeeper to Boston GC, its speculation.

If Mike C or TePaul retypes something from a document they have seen, its speculation.

Do I have that about right?

Jeff
I don't follow you. I wrote that Naill Carlton's articles were confirmed by other reports I've seen. What specifically are you referring to that Mike or TEP retyped? I don't recall TEP retyping anything on this thread, and I don't recall commenting about something Mike C retyped on here either.

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Willie Campbell & Myopia
« Reply #635 on: December 10, 2010, 11:04:52 AM »
According to those articles Neil C posted, it appears Campbell went right to Brookline. It says in 1894 he was at Boston CC, but in 1895 he was "re-engaged" at Brookline, sounding like that was the same club.

It does say he left Brookline in Nov 1895, so DM could be right that he was engaged at Myopia for a year, but from where do we see Willie was hired at Myopia? 

And, the implications earlier were that he was the pro at MH in 1894, which is why he laid out the course, no?  Since Leeds is widely credited with the expansion in 1896, was Campbell hired to construct the links?  And, if he left for Philly right after, I gather he felt that was his true calling, despite his playing reputation?

Jeff
You are obviously confused. No one has ever claimed Campbell was the professional at Myopia in 1894. He was the pro at Myopia in 1896.

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Willie Campbell & Myopia
« Reply #636 on: December 10, 2010, 11:10:47 AM »

Mike
Campbell was the pro at Brookline in 1894 and 1895 (he migrated to Essex during the summer of '94), the pro at Myopia in 1896, and was at the public links at Franklin Park from 1897 until his death in 1900. Leeds was at Brookline in 1894 and 1895, and moved Myopia in 1896.


Here is a post from a few days ago.

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Willie Campbell & Myopia
« Reply #637 on: December 10, 2010, 11:18:27 AM »
TMac,

You are right this time.  Neil's articles confirmed that WC was not hired as a pro at Myopia originally (although they do not preclude him being hired in 1896) but I thought I had read many posts from earlier saying he was pro there n 1894, based on the newspaper articles coincident with the opening tournament.

I guess we figure that if he did have something to do with Myopia, whether design or construction in 1894, he still would have had to do it on loan from Brookline in 1894, or had a contract with Brookline that allowed him to do outside work, no?

Now I am wondering about him and Leeds, him and White (as he probably influenced White's later career).  We have focused on WC's contribution to the original nine hole design but then he may have been therehad some involvement and with Leeds in 1896.  And again, since he left quickly, from the Glasgow articles it appears he really wanted to design and build golf courses, so he went to Philly.  Or, he didn't get a fair chance from Leeds. I am still  interested as to the backstory of why he didn't stick around.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Mike Cirba

Re: Willie Campbell & Myopia
« Reply #638 on: December 10, 2010, 11:19:07 AM »
On April 15, 1894, it was reported;

In Hamilton.
Messrs J. Watson Merrill, R. M. Appleton and W. A. Burnham of the Myopia
Hunt club's committee on field sports, have been appointed as a sub committee to take
measures for the introduction this season of the game of golf at the Kennels.


That same day it was reported;

The season at the Essex county club at West Manchester will begin about .lune 10.
Among the new features in field sports will be introduced the same of golf, instruction
in which will be imparted to club members by Prof Campbell.



When did the golf season begin that year at Brookline?   He was at Essex in 1894 all summer and fall until October, when he went back to Brookline for a month before going to France (Pau) for the winter.
« Last Edit: December 10, 2010, 11:22:00 AM by MCirba »

TEPaul

Re: Willie Campbell & Myopia
« Reply #639 on: December 10, 2010, 11:30:56 AM »
Jeffrey:

I think your Post #630 is a good and necessary one. It should be asked and answered cogently and hopefully adhered to for a decent discussion to take place on here rather than getting bogged down in the irrelevent minutae and non-productive argumantations the likes of MacWood and Moriarty commonly produce on this threads and others like it.

I note this thread is nearing 20 pages. I took the time to go back through the whole thing as best I could yesterday. I also note it was begun by MacWood on Aug 1, 2009. It ran for 12 days at that time and then went into the back pages. It was reprised March 14, 2010 by MacWood. It ran for 6 days at that time and slide into the back pages again. It was reprised on Dec. 2, 2010 by Moriarty and has been running since. This may indicate something of a pattern or MO on the part of those two contributors.

But having gone back through this entire thread yesterday I would like to say that close to 650 posts on this subject I tend to identify Niall Carlton's #286 and Mike Cirba's #625 as perhaps the most logical and reasonable regarding this thread's basic subject and question----eg What did those three members do in the spring of 1894 as far as staking out an original nine hole course before Campbell arrived in America and what did Campbell contribute after he arrived on March 31, 1894 that is reflected in a few newspaper articles of the time that claim he laid out the course? We have two separate contemporaneous information sources that reflect that three members originally paced off nine tees and greens that does not mention Campbell's participation and we have up to three newspaper articles somewhat later that mentions Campbell laid out a nine hole course that do not mention those three members.

I tend to embrace Niall Carlton's and Mike Cirba's opinion and logic that these two apparently differing stories may not, probably weren't and probably aren't mutually exclusive. Of course I wish I could interview the reporters of those three newspaper reporters and S. Dacre Bush who was the secretary of Myopia Hunt at the time and later became the club's president, to ask them in detail what else they may've known about the creation of that original nine in early 1894 and who did what in detail but unfortunately I can't do that as they are both long dead.

But I must also say that in the last 2-4 years I have tried to run to ground various source materials of Myopia, particularly that potentially valuable Leeds Scrapbook that appears to be lost after being used by Weeks in his 26 year effort to put together the book he published in 1975 for the club's centenial. I have done that not just on the computer but in Boston and Myopia. I have gone as far as I think I can with Weeks' family and a few other families who knew him well; but it now occurs to me I may also search via the families of S. Dacre Bush and a man by the name of W. Lincoln Boyden. There is also a potentially valuable collection of family papers of the Leeds family reposited in a Boston University I'm aware of.

SO, the search goes on with this subject as it does with most of them!  ;)

Happily, there has been renewed interest and personal participation at the club and from a few members in recent years to recompile the various aspects of the club's 135 year old history, including its golf and golf architecture history.
« Last Edit: December 10, 2010, 12:03:19 PM by TEPaul »

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Willie Campbell & Myopia
« Reply #640 on: December 10, 2010, 11:53:25 AM »
TEPaul,

I tend to agree with you.  I believe that at one time or another, all participants have suggested that Campbell had something to do with Myopia.  I have stated that if the records referenced by Weeks (which almost certainly were club records) said the members started the process they had something major to do with it, too.

From the newspaper articles posted, we know Campbell got here about late march, and settled right in at Brookline.  It also appears from the May articles that he had been working on the course at Myopia in that time frame, but we don't know how early he started, or if he just went up there to grow in the sod, lay the sod near the last minute.  We also don't know under what contractural arrangement he did so, if any.

I can sympathize with anyone who wants to know exactly what days and in exactly what ways Willie may have interacted with the club members to implement the nine holes.  I think we all want to know and its fascinating stuff, really. 

I have learned a lot, and maybe provided some questions worth looking into further by someone.  Reading back on your insights from years of research there and from articles posted by TMac on Willie C and others on Myopia and Willie C has been a learning experience for me.

Only several dozen of the 650 posts have provided new information or analysis.  The others are just bickering as usual among the usual suspects, with barbs directed many ways.  I am sorry for my part in any of that, but we all get frustrated from time to time as we seem to talk past others understandings of stuff.  And sadly, there is still a little one upmanship going on as to who has better methods, sources, etc.  This has been really good in spots though!

Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

TEPaul

Re: Willie Campbell & Myopia
« Reply #641 on: December 10, 2010, 11:58:22 AM »
Mike:

With your good newspaper account offerings of the going-ons at Myopia (Hamilton) in the spring of 1894, a good amount of experience can, will and has taught us that we should not make the mistake of just assuming, and worse still, concluding, that the date of the newspaper article is the same date and time that the events reported (in those articles) and the details that go into the event reported (in this case the planning, decision making and the creation of a golf course) are one and the same date and time.

I can't tell you the number of times this mistake is made in various ways that potentially can and occasionally have thrown off an accurate analysis of events and their details, and sometimes massively.

Probably the greatest example of this, and a most unfortunate example because he really is a wonderful golf and architecture writer and analyst, was Mr. Finegan when for some reason he assumed, and then concluded, that the date on the "blue/red" line topo map of Pine Valley was the date the work on that map had been finished and done. It was, in fact, the surveyor's date that preceded the map being given to George Crump in the first place.  That date preceded Colt's arrival by about two months and it preceded Crump's cumulative work on that map by over four years!! The discovery of that reality was what first made me aware over ten years ago of the real importance of comprehensive "timelining" in these kinds of historic analyses that we who are involved in these things do.
« Last Edit: December 10, 2010, 01:19:24 PM by TEPaul »

Mike Cirba

Re: Willie Campbell & Myopia
« Reply #642 on: December 10, 2010, 12:26:28 PM »
Tom Paul,

Agreed...when I saw that article the first thing I thought was that this isn't "hard news" that's time dependent.   It may have happened a day prior, a week prior, or a month or more prior.    My guess is that it was end of March or so when snows melted as was recounted elsewhere, but we don't know for sure.

All,

Is peace, love, and understanding (aka rational conversation and civil discourse) actually coming to these religious attribution wars here on GCA?   What are the odds?   Anyone want to bet on the outcome??

Stay tuned...  ;)  ;D

TEPaul

Re: Willie Campbell & Myopia
« Reply #643 on: December 10, 2010, 12:27:24 PM »
"I can sympathize with anyone who wants to know exactly what days and in exactly what ways Willie may have interacted with the club members to implement the nine holes.  I think we all want to know and its fascinating stuff, really."



Jeffrey:

I can certainly sympathize too with anyone who wants to know all the details of these events long ago, and that includes sympathizing with the likes of MacWood and Moriarty in their interest in knowing all the details of these clubs and courses such as Merion or Myopia and others of that age and significance.

However, one always needs to be realistic in these searches and analyses. I explained that to MacWood back in February, 2003 when he began a thread on here entitled "Re: Macdonald and Merion?" I believe that thread was the beginning of the endless debates on here about the details of the creation of Merion East and who precisely and exactly was responsible for what and even on a hole by hole basis and context. I believe that eventually evolved into Moriarty producing his essay "The Missing Faces of Merion" which certainly was considered controversial and even fallacious by some or many, not the least reason being he was obviously working on it with something much less than complete contemporaneous source material and information of what was or could be actually available.

I informed him (MacWood) right at the beginning of that thread in Feb, 2003 ("Re: Macdonald and Merion?") that that kind of detailed information is probably just not available and never was simply because those kinds of details are never or very, very rarely recorded in the first place at that time----eg essentially by Wilson as his committee as they went through the planning, design and construction of Merion East over a period of perhaps over two years before its opening for play in September of 1912.

Do you think MacWood took that advice under consideration? Of course not (his response was what it usually is---eg "Thanks for the advice but I don't need it as an 'expert researcher/historian' from someone like you or Wayne Morrison"), and I think the following nearly eight years of irrelevent and contentious argumentation is the result of it, and particularly when Moriarty, at some point later, basically jumped onto MacWood's inquisitive band-wagon about Merion East and its architectural and architect history.

Historians really do have to be cognizant of this reality and take it to heart in their analyses or they will always run the risk of just trying to make too much out of something or even nothing, unfortunately.  I believe that is what happened on these subjects like Merion and Myopia and unfortunately is continuing to happen.

Again, I applaud your #630. Those are necessary points and a necessary question about them and they need a cogent and well considered answer and agreement from all to proceed productively. What will MacWood's (and Moriarty's) responses be to this post and message? I suspect, from experience, it will be the same as it's always been which is wholly non-productive but we shall see, shan't we? Perhaps he (they) will change; I suppose there is always hope, at least! At some point we must realize that we just may not have truly "verifiable" material and source material and that we will just get into opinion and speculation, if we don't have it. I have no problem with opinion and speculation on here but apparently a few others do. The problem is they tend call their own offerings "verifiable" evidence when in fact it probably falls well short of that-----and they tend to discount the offerings of others when it may not be only outright speculation, as they invariably claim it is. But at the very least if they claim it is without first seeing it for themselves, and they also claim that those providing it to them are not realiable or credible or whatever in the way they describe it and provide it, then they most certainly do have a responsiblity to this website and the rest of us they try to discuss these things with, to go see it for themselves first! And THAT is a Fact!

« Last Edit: December 10, 2010, 12:47:02 PM by TEPaul »

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Willie Campbell & Myopia
« Reply #644 on: December 10, 2010, 01:10:32 PM »


When did the golf season begin that year at Brookline?   He was at Essex in 1894 all summer and fall until October, when he went back to Brookline for a month before going to France (Pau) for the winter.


Mike
The golf season began at Brookline on April 9. Campbell did not go to France. I believe his friend Joe Lloyd eventually took that Winter position at Pau. Lloyd was the pro at Essex County.

"Golf has 'caught on' and the fashionable representatives of society are making great preparations for future tourneys. At the Country club much earnestness and enthusiasm are displayed among the most prominent members. Instruction in the game is given daily by Prof. Campbell. It is surprising that the golf germ, which has flourished in England so long should only lately have reached our shores. Throughout England the game is a recognized institution."

The above article was also found in the April 15 Boston Globe.

Merrill, Appleton and Burnham were all members of The Country Club, and were on hand at Brookline when Campbell defeated Willie Davis on May 18, a psuedo national championship match..
« Last Edit: December 10, 2010, 02:38:30 PM by Tom MacWood »

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Willie Campbell & Myopia
« Reply #645 on: December 10, 2010, 01:14:18 PM »
TEP
You indicated in the old Robert White thread that you found the information regarding the Squire & Co designing Myopia in the Board Minutes, written by Dacres Bush. What other information were you able to extract from those minutes?

TEPaul

Re: Willie Campbell & Myopia
« Reply #646 on: December 10, 2010, 01:39:11 PM »
Tom MacWood:

Given the nature of these threads and discussions on GOLFCLUBATLAS.com, at least the way this one (this thread) has evolved and given the nature of those discussions with particularly you and David Moriarty, I would prefer to basically just recuse myself from some of this and certainly the answering what I consider to be just another of your endless irrelevent questions that I feel includes your last one.

You and Moriarty have apparently concluded and stated on here that my opinions and my reporting on here of what I've read at and about Myopia is nothing more than speculation. That's fine with me if you two think that; I really don't care. What I care about is the search for the accuracy of as many of the details of Myopia's history as I can manage and with Myopia, frankly; not with you and Moriarty, at least not unless and until you do the kind of research work I have on that club and golf course.

So, if you two believe that I have no right to report on here what I have read at, from and with Myopia, that it is only speculation if not provided to you two and therefore not acceptable on here because of that, then that's fine. I really don't need to discuss any of this with you two anymore because I don't see it as important or productive. I read that material on Myopia at and around Myopia in the last 2-3 years, as I recall it; I did not copy it, photograph it, or take copies of it in any form home with me. This is of course different than most all of the material I have here on Merion.

So, I really don't see the purpose of discussing any of this with you anymore even though I certainly may reserve the right to comment on what my opinions are on some of the things you say on here on this subject. If you view them as insulting and sarcastic as apparently Moriarty does, then I'm sorry about that----perhaps the two of you should find a way to grow thicker skins and certainly given the way you two present yourselves on this website.

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Willie Campbell & Myopia
« Reply #647 on: December 10, 2010, 01:45:56 PM »
I figured as much.

TEPaul

Re: Willie Campbell & Myopia
« Reply #648 on: December 10, 2010, 02:04:43 PM »
Very good then and congratulations on figuring as much----that's a decent start. At least it seems you are beginning to figure out what actually goes on outside your computer somewhere in Ivory Tower, Ohio, and how things actually do work in the real world.
« Last Edit: December 10, 2010, 02:07:19 PM by TEPaul »

Mike Cirba

Re: Willie Campbell & Myopia
« Reply #649 on: December 10, 2010, 02:06:14 PM »
Tom MacWood,

If the golf season started at Brookline on April 1st in 1894, is it fair to assume that the snows melted sometime in March?