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Tom MacWood

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Re: Willie Campbell & Myopia
« Reply #650 on: December 10, 2010, 02:14:57 PM »
No, there was a foot and a half of snow on the ground April 9.
« Last Edit: December 10, 2010, 02:37:52 PM by Tom MacWood »

Mike Cirba

Re: Willie Campbell & Myopia
« Reply #651 on: December 10, 2010, 02:21:17 PM »


"Golf has 'caught on' and the fashionable representatives of society are making great preparations for future tourneys. At the Country club much earnestness and enthusiasm are displayed among the most prominent members. Instruction in the game is given daily by Prof. Campbell. It is surprising that the golf germ, which has flourished in England so long should only lately have reached our shores. Throughout England the game is a recognized institution."

The above article was also found in the April 15 Boston Globe.



Must have been some very interesting golf that had "caught on" under 18 inches of snow between April 1 and April 15th!  ;)
« Last Edit: December 10, 2010, 02:47:23 PM by MCirba »

Mike Cirba

Re: Willie Campbell & Myopia
« Reply #652 on: December 10, 2010, 05:52:32 PM »
I'm not 100% certain, but after hearing about that snowy winter, I'm starting to believe that Campbell's spring in 1894 prior to his assignment at Essex CC was spent teaching here.  

Who knew those early pros were so resourceful?  ;)  ;D



DMoriarty

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Re: Willie Campbell & Myopia
« Reply #653 on: December 10, 2010, 07:13:13 PM »
Tom MacWood,  I think the correct date of that article is May 18, 1894. 

Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Tom MacWood

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Re: Willie Campbell & Myopia
« Reply #654 on: December 10, 2010, 08:22:15 PM »
David
Which one?

DMoriarty

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Re: Willie Campbell & Myopia
« Reply #655 on: December 10, 2010, 11:09:26 PM »
The one re-quoted directly above my Mike.   I don't have anything in front of me, but a recall an similar article from around May 18, but I think it was the Jounal or Daily Advertiser, not the Glob.  I could be wrong, but you might want to double check the date and paper. 
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Tom MacWood

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Re: Willie Campbell & Myopia
« Reply #656 on: December 11, 2010, 09:54:49 AM »
David
I have 4/15/1894 jotted down, and I'm pretty sure that is right because the blurb above it talks about Mrs. Moulton will be leaving on her annual trip abroad in May. I've seen a few articles that refer to Prof Campbell.

Mike Cirba

Re: Willie Campbell & Myopia
« Reply #657 on: December 11, 2010, 10:03:47 AM »
Tom MacWood,

Serious question...

If the foot and a half of snow on the ground on April 9th, 1894 was clearly too daunting for the Myopia members to have staked out a nine-hole course on their grounds before then, where do you think Willie Campbell was giving lessons and/or golf was catching on among the populace by April 15th?

Might there have been a big early spring storm in early April that accounted for the snow you cited, or would it have just been a late Boston spring that year?

Or, might that blurb from April 15th have been sort of a simple advertisement rather than a report of hard news?   Recall that at that point Willie Campbell would have been in Boston all of two whole weeks!  

It certainly reads like an ad...wouldn't you agree?
« Last Edit: December 11, 2010, 10:07:15 AM by MCirba »

Tom MacWood

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Re: Willie Campbell & Myopia
« Reply #658 on: December 11, 2010, 10:23:56 AM »
Tom MacWood,

Serious question...

If the foot and a half of snow on the ground on April 9th, 1894 was clearly too daunting for the Myopia members to have staked out a nine-hole course on their grounds before then, where do you think Willie Campbell was giving lessons and/or golf was catching on among the populace by April 15th?

Might there have been a big early spring storm in early April that accounted for the snow you cited, or would it have just been a late Boston spring that year?

Or, might that blurb from April 15th have been sort of a simple advertisement rather than a report of hard news?   Recall that at that point Willie Campbell would have been in Boston all of two whole weeks!  

It certainly reads like an ad...wouldn't you agree?


Mike
Willie Campbell was giving lessons on the links at Clyde Park, the alternate name for TCC / Brookline. There were reports of them playing golf on 11th. Were not talking January or February here, this is April. April showers bring May flowers. I don't believe The Country Club was in need of a membership drive. That is a goofy theory IMO. There was a lot of hype about golf in Boston in 1894, and Willie Campbell was a major reason for all the excitement.

If you are hell bent on proving the Squire & Co laid out the course, instead of worrying about the weather I'd be looking for some shreds of evidence, a single report would be a good start IMO. And I have a strong suspicion TEP's board minutes came to him in a dream so I wouldn't count on that.

Mike Cirba

Re: Willie Campbell & Myopia
« Reply #659 on: December 11, 2010, 10:42:23 AM »
Tom,

Aren't you the one who just told us yesterday that there was a foot and a half of snow on the ground around Boston on April 9th?

And now you say they were playing golf on the 11th?   Quick melt perhaps?

I'm just following your meteorology lead and wondering where the heck Willie could teach unless Boston had indoor golf teaching facilities in 1894?

Yesterday you told us that the snows hadn't melted so there was no way that the members could have staked out nine holes prior to April and now everyone in the city was out on the links two weeks later.

Which is it?


TEPaul

Re: Willie Campbell & Myopia
« Reply #660 on: December 11, 2010, 10:43:07 AM »
Tom MacWood:

Let me see if I'm understanding you correctly. Are you saying there was a foot and a half of snow on the ground in Boston on April 9th and they were playing golf at TCC on April 11th?

Tom MacWood

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Re: Willie Campbell & Myopia
« Reply #661 on: December 11, 2010, 11:22:22 AM »
Tom,

Aren't you the one who just told us yesterday that there was a foot and a half of snow on the ground around Boston on April 9th?

And now you say they were playing golf on the 11th?   Quick melt perhaps?

I'm just following your meteorology lead and wondering where the heck Willie could teach unless Boston had indoor golf teaching facilities in 1894?

Yesterday you told us that the snows hadn't melted so there was no way that the members could have staked out nine holes prior to April and now everyone in the city was out on the links two weeks later.

Which is it?



Mike
I just looked it up in a Boston newspaper and there was big storm on Sunday the 8th. They reported eight inches in places (Boston was the center of the storm) with 37 mph winds. The author of the golf article was either exaggerating or talking about 18 inch drifts, which could be possible. Whatever the case there was too much snow and none showed up for his lesson on Monday, including Campbell.

The weather report also said the snow would be a thing of the past within a day. It was 50 degrees on the 15th. Like I said before instead of worrying about the weather you should be looking for some reporting of the Squire & Co laying out the course.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2010, 11:29:47 AM by Tom MacWood »

TEPaul

Re: Willie Campbell & Myopia
« Reply #662 on: December 11, 2010, 11:34:13 AM »
"Mike
I just looked it up in a Boston newspaper and there was big storm on Sunday the 8th. They reported eight inches in places (Boston was the center of the storm) and 37 mph winds. The author of the golf article was either exaggerating or talking about 18 inch drifts, which could be possible. Whatever the case there was too much snow and none showed up for his lesson, including Campbell.

The weather report also said the snow would be a thing of the past within a day. It was 50 degrees on the 15th. Like I said before instead of worrying about the weather you should be looking for some reporting of the Squire & Co laying out the course."




Tom MacWood:

I don't think any of us should be looking for any reporting about Squire & Co----not right now anyway. I think what we should do is look a bit more carefully at your credibility with this weather information you've been handing us as some sort of fact. It looks to me like about the biggest load of crap ever offered on this website, even from you. Are you actually trying to pass off this weather garbage you've been handing us as "verifiable" evidence and fact that proves something about who routed Myopia? If so, so much for the credibilty of your newspaper articles if that's where you're getting this information. Or are you just making it up yourself? Let's see those articles on Boston weather in 1894 you're referring to on April 9th and 11th. How about March 1, 1894 or March 7th or even Feb. 26? Can you supply us with weather conditions in Boston or South Hamilton then? ;)
 
 
 
« Last Edit: December 11, 2010, 11:36:21 AM by TEPaul »

Mike Cirba

Re: Willie Campbell & Myopia
« Reply #663 on: December 11, 2010, 11:43:15 AM »
Tom MacWood,

So it's possible that for purposes of staking out nine holes in South Hamilton "the snows" may have cleared by sometime prior to April?

Tom MacWood

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Re: Willie Campbell & Myopia
« Reply #664 on: December 11, 2010, 11:43:46 AM »
TEP
My advice to you is to change the subject as much and as often as possible - the credibility of the weather reporting; Finegan's folly and the PV map; rehashing the Merion debate; HH Barker and plight of the itinerate professional; WC as a touring professional - anything and everything but discussing the truth regarding the supposed board minutes.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2010, 11:51:14 AM by Tom MacWood »

Tom MacWood

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Re: Willie Campbell & Myopia
« Reply #665 on: December 11, 2010, 11:48:57 AM »
Tom MacWood,

So it's possible that for purposes of staking out nine holes in South Hamilton "the snows" may have cleared by sometime prior to April?

Mike
Of course it is possible. It is possible they could have staked out the course in February or the year before, and before the club even voted on it. The question has never been is it possible, the question is wether there is any proof. And I have not seen any proof suggesting the Squire & Co laid out the course, and I have seen plenty of proof Campbell did. Based on the documentation presented so far why are you even questioning the fact Campbell laid out the course?

TEPaul

Re: Willie Campbell & Myopia
« Reply #666 on: December 11, 2010, 12:07:27 PM »
Tom MacWood:

So, what exactly was or is your point with posting those articles and posts about snow in Boston in the spring of 1894?  ;)

Mike Cirba

Re: Willie Campbell & Myopia
« Reply #667 on: December 11, 2010, 12:11:01 PM »
Tom,

As mentioned, I think both things are true.

I find it too much for coincidence that Weeks cited them, TePaul saw minutes, the April news said they were responsible for brining golf to Myopia, and in June they were called golf "experts" for them to have no role in the design of the course.

I think Canpbell laid the course out on the ground and certainly provided input.

Niall C

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Re: Willie Campbell & Myopia
« Reply #668 on: December 11, 2010, 12:41:45 PM »
Mike

I asked a couple of pages ago what you thought was involved in building/laying out a course back then. For instance did they build a gun platform style tee or did they just find a level piece of ground near the previous green and bang a stake in and call it a tee. Or did they shape the greens, seed them/turf them or simply find a suitable flat bit of ground, rolled it, cut it and called it a green. Likewise did they build any "hazards" or was the rough state of the ground enough to be going on with. Basically what was this original course like ? That to me is what this discussion should be about.

Personally I have no problem believing the club records saying that a group of club members laid out the first course, and by that I mean something fairly crude and rudimentary but that allowed them to flex their golfing muscles until Willie arrived. That it also allowed them to claim credit for the first course probably boosted their ego as well.

I also have no problem believing newspaper reports saying that Willie laid out a course their if indeed that is what they say, I haven't been paying too much attention to this thread of late. I dare say Campbells layout would have looked fairly crude to our eyes also but then we have the benefit of over a hundred years of golf course design evolution to look back on.

Niall

DMoriarty

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Re: Willie Campbell & Myopia
« Reply #669 on: December 11, 2010, 01:29:52 PM »
A couple of questions Mike.
1.  How do you get from a Myopia formed a subcommittee, to the subcommittee designed the course?   Wouldn't any club form such a committee in these situations?   Surely membership on a committee does not equate to design credit, does it?  And it isnt even the exact same guys as TEPaul credits, is it?
2.  How do you go from a paper called them "experts" who would be playing in a tournament in a week, to these men designed the course.  Again, it is not even the exact same guys, is t?   And surely you don't really think their expertise compared to Campbell's, do you?  These guys may have been among the better of the members (given most had never played that is not saying much) but they were still beginners relative to Campbell, weren't they?  Wasn't he 40 or 50 strokes better than them?   Is there something magical about a newspaper mentioning the word "expert" in this context?  Does it contain hidden meaning about how this amorphous group must have designed the course?

--------------------------

Niall,

I would likely have no problem believing the club records either if we knew what they said, but we don't.  And there are some things about TEPaul's remembrance of the records that doesnt quite make sense and clashes with other reports.

Also, they weren't waiting for Campbell to get there.  The season began in June, and most of those involved were still golfing at Brookline, probably taking lessons from Campbell himself.  Reportedly, as of mid-May no course had been laid out.

There are at least  three different contemporaneous accounts explicitly stating that Campbell laid out the course.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2010, 01:31:45 PM by DMoriarty »
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Mike Cirba

Re: Willie Campbell & Myopia
« Reply #670 on: December 11, 2010, 02:41:20 PM »
Niall,

I think our impressions of how things happened are pretty similar, although if I recall correctly I think the greens were sodded.   Even today though most of them are pretty much at natural grade.

I'm not sure they were waiting for Campbell per se, but I'm sure they were happy to have his input and expertise but I think that happened after the wheels were in motion, not before, and I think reports from May that the course was not yet laid out referred to the minimal construction activities that followed and not to the stakinf of the basic routing, which I think happened earlier as described.

There were apparently also a few basic cross hazards constructed as well, I believe.

David,

I believe the totality of the Weeks account, TP's concurrence, as well as the news articles I found naming two of the men to a committee responsible for bringing golf to Myopia, as well as their status as "experts" to the locals (presumably due to prior experience on an estate course) is all indicative of their involvement in routing and staking out the original course.

In isolation, they are not conclusive but together make a compelling circumstantial case in my opinion.

Tom MacWood

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Re: Willie Campbell & Myopia
« Reply #671 on: December 11, 2010, 02:59:05 PM »
Mike
Willie Campbell laid out 25+ golf courses during his too brief design career, I'm not aware of a single instance where he constructed a course to someone else's design. Are you?

Mike Cirba

Re: Willie Campbell & Myopia
« Reply #672 on: December 11, 2010, 03:18:17 PM »
Tom,

However many courses Campbell was involved with, I don't think either of us know the answer to your question.

For instance, we do know his work at Phill CC was limited to offering "suggestions" along with Harry Gullane to a design committee made up of members and that George Fowle was the one most responsible for the design of that course during the early years.

Tom MacWood

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Re: Willie Campbell & Myopia
« Reply #673 on: December 11, 2010, 04:00:52 PM »
Mike
Unless you know of a report of Campbell building a course to someone else's design I think we can safely assume he never did it. And why would he when he was undoubtedly the foremost expert (by a mile) at any project he was involved.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2010, 04:10:12 PM by Tom MacWood »

Tom MacWood

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Re: Willie Campbell & Myopia
« Reply #674 on: December 11, 2010, 04:01:09 PM »
This is an excerpt from an article in the Boston Globe 5/20/1894.

"The royal and ancient game of golf which has been played for two centuries or more in the old country has come to Boston, seemingly to stay.

From a few improvised links at Mr. James Lawrence's country place at Groton, where the game in this part of the country started some four years ago, the golfing interest in and about Boston has now reached a point where there are three course or set of links at the Country Club at Clyde park, a professional instructor who teaches would be golfers the mysteries of the game every fine afternoon, and in the mourning has a class of member of the Boston athletic association, who knock the ball about on a few home-made links out in the Berkeley oval just across Huntington Ave.

This instructor is Willie Campbell, formerly of Musselburgh, then of Prestwick, Scotland, and a golfer of much note in the old country.

He came into prominence some six years agom when he was defeated by Jamie Morris, with whom he was matched for £25 a side. A few months later Campbell had a return match with Morris and won handsomely. He then beat Willie Park at Musselburgh and Nroth Berwick.

He then sent out a standing challenge to play anyone for £100 a side. This challenge was taken up by Archie Simpson of Carnoustie. St.Andrews, Musselburgh, and Carnoustie were the four greens selected for play. Campbell won easily.

It is said that Campbell's reputation at Prestwick is, to quote the aforesaid authority, 'monumental', he having 'holed the round' there in the marvelous score of 71, which does not mean a whole lot to the lay mind which does not grasp what holing the round means and does not know where Prestwick is and can't see any reason why rounds should be more difficult to hole at Prestwick than at any other place.

Campbell may be seen any afternoon wandering on the green at the Country club dressed in a loose dirt colored tweed with with cap to match, and usually with a 'brass' or 'a niblick' or a 'massie' or some other implement of the trade slung over his shoulder. He is a tall, sturdy, square shouldered man, with a light mustache. Next summer he will be at the Essex county club at Manchester.

In addition to the links at the Country club and Essex county clubs there are links at Mr. HH Hunnewell's place at Wellesley hills, Mr. Wickerson's at Dedham, Mr. Francis Peabody's place at Danvers and the Hoosicwick club at Milton, and undoubtedly in the near future there will be links at many more country places about Boston. The number of those who play golf for 'golf' in which way the game is called by those who practice it in these parts may be inferred from some of the entries in the recent tournaments at the Country club: Mr. HC Leeds, Mr. Bavard Thayer, Mr. SB Bennett, Mr. Arthur Hunnewell, Mr. Lawrence Curtis, Mr. EB Haven, Mr. Washington Thomas, Mr. TJ Coolidge Jr, Mr. George Dexter, Mr. FL Higginson, Mr. George Lee, and Dr. W. Appleton.

Every pleasant day the golf enthusiasts, under the towering eye of Willie Campbell, foregather on the lawn of the Country club, appropriately attired 'put across the greens' looking for all the world like pictures of Mr. Balfour in Punch, and the 'caddies' (pronounced cardies heavens knows why) then trail patiently in the rear heavily loaded with great quire shaped arrangement filled with golf clubs.

Among the most prominent figures seen every afternoon at the Country club in addition to those before mentioned is Mr. Richard Sweet Milton, who takes a deep and abiding interest in the game and divides honors with Willie Campbell in teaching the young idea of how to golf.

Mr. William Pratt Lyman, Mr. Summner Paine, Mr. John L. Gardner, Mr. William Silsbee, Mr. HG Otis, Mr. William Paige Lawrence, Mr. Jinx Taylor, Mr. Henri Sigourney, Mr. De Blois, and Col. George Bernard daily practice on the Irvington oval."

"...The Country club has 110 sheep from Capt. Perkin's place in New Hampshire with a shepherd to look after, or rather tend the flock. The entire duty of those sheep is to keep the grass short on the links. It is said that a committee has been appointed by the Newport golf club to come up and examine the Country club links, as they are supposed to be the best in the county."

A couple of things standout: apparently the course at Myopia was not laid out yet, and likewise it seems Appleton's course was not either. I would not be surprised if it turns out Campbell laid out Appleton's course.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2010, 04:04:17 PM by Tom MacWood »