Willie Campbell & Myopia

[TEPaul]

Melvyn:

In fact the timeline for Campbell staking out the tees and greens of the original nine at Myopia is not fine. It just doesn't work unless Campbell somehow did it before he arrived in America.

Someone on here said the course opened for play on June 18th 1894. That is not correct---it opened for play for members and guests about June 1, 1894 according to the club records of the time. June 18th was when the first tournament was held on the course because golf was so popular with the members and guests. At least that is what Myopia's own administrative records of that time say. Since the course was Myopia's and they were the ones holding that early tournament I would have to assume THEY knew the dates of these things a bit better than some indirect newspaper articles.

As for Appleton's six hole course on Appleton Farm in 1892/3 as well as a few other private estate courses in the early 1890s including the Hunnewell's course in Wellesley and the Phillip's course at Moraine Farm on Wendam Lake, yes they certainly did exist before 1894 and before Campbell came to America. So did Prides Crossing and Essex.

Therefore to assume that these people had private golf courses on their own estates and did not know how to play golf at that time seems sort of silly, don't you think?  

[Melvyn Morrow]

Tom

Subject to the condition of the site circa May 1894, the course could be in a state to play. It would not be finished or ideal. Man made traps and sand traps did not always get constructed pre opening of the course. The main concentration and time would be spent on the Greens. Therefore, what I am saying is at that time it could have been possible to have a rudimentary course ready for the competition, however I would expect work to continue well after the opening.

The question could there have been a course made ready for play from April to June – yes, most certainly

Could a course be made playable in a less than a month – again subject to site, again yes it could, so I would not lead with Timline.

It does not matter how many courses are in the area, the real question is how many could play the game at or near Myopia in 1892/3/4? Did all the then committee members play golf, as I believe it was not a golf club? In-fact how many had played golf or knew how to play in 92/93/94 from the list mentioned? Who knows most in the area may have been well experienced in the game or was it just one or two pushing the game in the area.

Melvyn

[David Stamm]

Did not St Andrews in Yonkers, NY have a group of men (the Apple Tree Gang) lay out a very rudimentary 3 hole course when they started their club in 1888? Who helped them put the course on the ground?

[TEPaul]

Melvyn:

I does not matter what the state of readiness that original nine holes was in through the spring and summer of 1894. All I am saying regarding a timeline is that a golf course of tees and greens was staked out by those three members before Willie Campbell got to America and therefore it is impossible that he could've done that for them. This does not mean there were not others things he did for them once he arrived, it only means the staking out of tees and greens had already been done BEFORE Campbell arrived in America. This is really not something that requires a lot of discussion or really any discussion as it simply means someone could not have done something if he just wasn't there when it was done. Since we do know that Campbell had never been to America when it was done I think we can conclude he wasn't there (at Myopia) when it was done, don't you?

But if all you are trying to say here is that Campbell may've done other things with that original nine after those tees and greens were staked out before he got there that most certainly is entirely possible and we do know that various newspaper articles mentioned that even though for some reason Myopia's own administrative records never did.

[TEPaul]

"Did not St Andrews in Yonkers, NY have a group of men (the Apple Tree Gang) lay out a very rudimentary 3 hole course when they started their club in 1888? Who helped them put the course on the ground?"


DavidS:


That story of the Apple Tree Gang laying out a rudimentary 3 hole course in 1888 at what became known as St Andrews in Yonkers NY is obviously just legend and myth. Its history will now need to be rewritten by a few of the excellent researchers/essayists on GOLFCLUBATLAS.com as it is now obvious that even though the Apple Tree Gang wanted to lay out their own course in 1888 it makes no sense at all that they would have or could have done that themselves in 1888 (and most particularly if one or any of them happened to be the Master of Fox Hounds at some hunt club at the time) and the actual truth is they probably heard that Willie Campbell might come to America some day and they waited about six years for Campbell, the world's greatest match play player at the time to first arrive in America in 1894 and do it for them.

Matter of fact, as of now, it appears that any semblance of golfers or rudimentary golf courses in America before approximately April 1894 is nothing more than myth and legend.

[Tom MacWood]

I still believe (according to the reports) that Willie Campbell designed the 9 hole course at Myopia.

The Timline is fine - Tom (P) as I e-mailed you the opportunity of having a course ready in 1894 was within the times you state. As for how good or ready the course was by June is open to question. Although I would expect work continued after June to produce the course Willie had designed.

Yes,  prominent  people and professional Gentlemen would without doubt take credit for the works of lowly golf professionals. However, did they?

As for the original 6 holes course – was it actually laid out?  I would like to know how many of the – lets call them The Gentlemen  - including Appleton knew how to play golf in 1892/3 or 4. This information may help as it would show how much experience existed to generate the ability to lay out a 6 hole course.   

Melvyn

Melvyn
The original six hole course at The Country Club was laid out by members Arthur Hunnewell, Laurence Curtis and Robert Bacon. Work began in autumn of '92 and the course was ready in spring '93. Hunnewell had 7-hole golf course on his estate next door to the club. That is where Curtis was introduced to the game, and I suspect that was where many of the members of TCC were introduced to the game. Hunnewell's course was the first in Boston - 1892. Curtis went on to become the first president of the USGA.

[Jim_Kennedy]

It really appears that the only people or persons who didn't give WC his due were the ones who put forth the history of the club. What were their reasons? They probably didn't have access to the newspaper information, they may have thought they already had enough info, they may have felt that the club didn't charge them with finding anything new, and it could also be that the club itself wasn't going to allow them to use any material that got in the way of the 'story' the club built for themselves.

It really seems to me that the club has an inadequate written history on its hands, and some of the new information that's been presented on this thread could add to their knowledge of what happened at their infancy.

[TEPaul]

"Curtis went on to become the first president of the USGA."


Tom:

Just a bit of minor factual housekeeping is necessary here since you seem to be a real stickler for exact FACTS!

Laurence Curtis was not the first president of the USGA, he was the second president. The beloved Theodore Havemeyer was the USGA's first president for whom the famous US Amateur trophy was named and given!

But the Curtis family from Massachussets has a very august history in American amateur golf and with the USGA. Laurence Curtis' neices Margaret and Harriot would both win US Amateurs (Harriot one and Margaret three) and together they would give the Curtis Cup in 1933 which is the women's counterpart to the men's Walker Cup. 

[Tom MacWood]

My mistake.

I think the Curtis example does illustrate something that has not yet been considered on this thread. In 1894 many of the new golfers around Boston had not been exposed to a real golf course. The only golf course Curtis knew (and many of the others knew) was the home made job by Hunnewell. That course would have been their template. Willie Campbell knew the best courses in the world, and had made a few very good ones himself. When he redesigned The Country Club he kept almost nothing from the original 6-hole course (one green and two tees, and no holes).

[TEPaul]

"When he redesigned The Country Club he kept almost nothing from the original 6-hole course (one green and two tees, and no holes)."


Tom:

In that case, and since this thread is about Myopia (and Campbell) perhaps you should give us all a hole by hole description of that original nine hole course at Myopia compared to Leeds' "Long Nine" on which the 1898 US Open was played and as well the 1900 18 hole course on which three more US Opens were played by 1908.

You said on this thread that original nine was kept more or less intact! What does that mean? Is it more or is it less? Is it a lot more or a lot less? The only way to tell is for you to give us the details of all the holes of that original nine and the details of Leeds' 1898 Long Nine.

Weeks' refers to that original nine in his book as somewhat a matter of speculation. Do you think you can tell us more about it than Weeks did in his book? He also describes that original nine as an "imporvished links." Can you explain to us why that might not be accurate?

Also in the acknowledgements in Weeks book he mentioned some of the motivation for writing the book was that the famous links of Myopia had never been written about by the club. The famous links of Myopia by both the club and the world were always considered to be what Herbert C. Leeds did there with that golf course and not that original nine before Leeds came to Myopia.

[TEPaul]

"The only golf course Curtis knew (and many of the others knew) was the home made job by Hunnewell."


I beg to differ. Being from Boston there is no way Curtis couldn't have known of the pre-1894 private estate Phillips' course at Moraine Farm on Wendham Lake and Appleton's course on the 1000 acre Appleton Farm in nearby Ipswich.

By the way, have you come to realize yet both how and why it is possible for a man like R.M Appleton to have laid out golf holes on his own private estate around 1892-3 and nine holes at Myopia in 1894 DESPITE also being the Master of the Fox Hounds at Myopia as well?   

[Niall C]

Tom

You ask the question why Appleton et al would go ahead and layout 9 holes when they knew Campbell was on his way (assuming of course that they knew he was on his way).

You could reasonably ask the same question of the Country Club who had 6 holes laid out before Campbell arrived. As Rich says these guys were used to getting on with things so why not go ahead and lay out a course which would allow them to at least flex their golfing muscles. It might have been rudimentary in the extreme but at least it would allow them to crack on rather than waiting for WC to arrive in town. Guys like WC were hired as keepers of the green, with that they would have the scope to make alterations so I don't see how it is unreasonable to think that there was a course there before WC but that he then knocked it into shape and in doing so made some alterations.

Again it seems a reasonable assumption to me given a club history which says Apleton et al laid out the original course and contemporary reports which give WC credit for laying out 9 holes.

Niall

Niall
I don't understand your point. The six hole course was built in 1893, the year before Campbell came to Boston. Are you saying they should have anticipated his hire the next year?

Appleton, Merrill, Gardner and Thomas were all active members of The Country Club. When it was announced in early March the best golfer in the world (arguably) was coming is it fair to assume it was highly anticipated at Brookline? The Myopia meeting when it was decided to build a golf course was mid March. Willie arrived at the end of March. According to news accounts the course had yet to be laid out in mid May. The course opened on June 18.

What evidence have you seen that would suggest Appleton, Merrill and Gardner actually laid out the course prior to Campbell's involvement?

Tom

The point I was endeavouring and failing (now that I've reread my post) to make was that the possibility of Appleton and his pals laying out a course, and the possibility of Campbell laying out a course, needn't necessarily be mutually exclusive. From what I've seen looking through club histories and old newspaper articles over here, clubs made changes to their courses as often as some people redecorate their homes, especially in the early years.

If Appleton and his cronies wanted a game of golf (assuming that his own private estate was out of bounds !) then why wait for Willie arriving to lay out a course when they could lay out a basic one themselves ?

As far as evidence is concerned, I'm happy to go with the general veracity of both the club history, as per Weeks, and the newspaper articles. Unless of course anyone can show me where they are wrong.

Niall

[Tom MacWood]

Niall
The problem with your theory is that it was reported in mid-May the course had yet to be laid out. If they needed a game they could play at The Country Club, where they were all members (there are reports golf being played at TCC in April, with Willie actively teaching the game). Most of the Myopia members didn't head north until June 1 anyway, there was probably no need to have the course ready prior to that. You don't believe Appleton & Co could wait two weeks for Campbell to arrive on March 31?

Have you seen any evidence presented by Weeks (or alternatively presented by TEP) or are you taking his word for it without proof?

[DMoriarty]

It seems like many of the posts try to make the point that Appleton and friends would have been capable of staking out a course without the assistance of someone like Campbell.  I don't really think that this is the pertinent question.  

We have multiple reports that it was Campbell who laid out the course.    We have no contemporaneous reports that Appleton and friends laid out the course.     Why read Appleton and friends into the equation in the absence of source material indicating they were involved?

[TEPaul]

"We have no contemporaneous reports that Appleton and friends laid out the course.     Why read Appleton and friends into the equation in the absence of source material indicating they were involved?"


That's true, "we" have no contemporaneous reports that Appleton and friends staked out nine tees and greens prior to Campbell's arrival in America, but of course that depends on who "we" means. I sure doesn't mean me. If someone wanted to see those contempornaeous reports they'd have to go to Myopia and get permission to see them. They are obviously the very same contemporaneous club reports and records that Weeks, an old line member of Myopia, referred to when he wrote his history book in 1975 which according to Weeks very much included Leeds' "scrapbook" that apparently chronicled Leeds decades of architectural involvement with Myopia and may've even included what he saw and did on trips abroad.

[Melvyn Morrow]

David

I feel we should be seen to be fair, thus questioning if these gentlemen had the knowledge to lay out a course. They certainly had the means to do so, but that does not necessary translate into ability.

All options should be investigated so that no further surprises surface, enabling the true records to come to light – whatever else it’s the truth that matters.

Melvyn

[Tom MacWood]

Melvyn
David is right. There is no contemporaneous evidence Appleton & Co. laid out the original course, and therefore there is no reason to believe they did.

The first golf committee at Myopia consisted of Appleton, Merrill, Gardner and Thomas. Thomas was the man who brought Campbell to America. The idea that these gents laid out the course rather than Campbell really defies logic. It only makes sense in the absence of Campbell, which for whatever was the case for Weeks. He was not aware Campbell was engaged by Myopia.

[TEPaul]

"I feel we should be seen to be fair, thus questioning if these gentlemen had the knowledge to lay out a course. They certainly had the means to do so, but that does not necessary translate into ability."


You know I've been reading stuff like that on this website far too long. I think I should mention, at this point, how silly remarks like that really are even in the form of a question. It may be somewhat understandable, I suppose, if very few on here had actually spend some time ACTUALLY routing a golf course on land. We know Appleton had a six hole golf course on his own estate a year or two before he and two friends staked out nine tees and greens at Myopia so obviously Appleton was a golfer or he wouldn't have had a private estate golf course of his own.

Guys, these men were extremely dedicated sportsmen who spent a good amount of time with sports on rural land including hunting, fox hunting, fishing, polo and golf back then. They also almost all went to Harvard and were highly educated and intelligent men. I spent about two years routing and designing a course on fairly complicated land and it just ain't rocket science staking out tees and greens if you are familiar with golf. It only gets tricky when you run into some really complex topogaphy or natural features and if you are excessively concerned with where you are with say "balance" and "variety" of holes at any particular time which back then they probably weren't. Plus you pretty much need to be intimately familiar with the land and topography with Myopia and where they were on it. Who on here is familiar with that for starters?

Those men were worldly, highly educated and intelligent and most all of them were all around sportsmen of the countryside and for anyone on here to actually question if they had the ABILITY or the KNOWLEDGE to stake out nine tees and greens also should realize how silly it truly is to say that and quesition it. The ones who do question it should try it themselves sometime on actual land, and if they ever did I believe they would reconsider what they are saying and asking in that vein!

Furthermore, Myopia never became famous for that original nine and the history book described it as "improvised" anyway. Myopia became famous for what Leeds did at Myopia over a number of years and in the end a decade and two. If that original nine was some world class nine holes Leeds probably never would've redesigned it in 1896 and a couple of years before he added a second nine.

[TEPaul]

"The first golf committee at Myopia consisted of Appleton, Merrill, Gardner and Thomas."


Tom:

Well, you're getting a little better. That time you were 50% right or 50% wrong depending on how one wants to look at it. The original golf committee of that 1894 nine was Appleton, Merrill, Bush and Parker.

Furthermore, a few on this website have truly become funny when they say no evidence exists that those three members staked out nine tees and greens before Campbell arrived. Saying that "we" on here have never seen that evidence is definitely not the same thing as saying it doesn't exist. It exists at Myopia as I've seen it and read it as Weeks obviously did when he researched and wrote his 1975 history book which was actually a twenty six year project.  

But that's OK; if people like you two on here actually want to say that because you've never seen it ("we" ) then it actually doesn't exist, be my guest---what difference does it really make? Not much to Myopia, that's for sure!  

[DMoriarty]

Furthermore, a few on this website have truly become funny when they say no evidence exists that those three members staked out nine tees and greens before Campbell arrived. Saying that "we" on here have never seen that evidence is definitely not the same thing as saying it doesn't exist. It exists at Myopia as I've seen it and read it as Weeks obviously did when he researched and wrote his 1975 history book which was actually a twenty six year project.  

But that's OK; if people like you two on here actually want to say that because you've never seen it ("we" ) then it actually doesn't exist, be my guest---what difference does it really make? Not much to Myopia, that's for sure!  

The obvious corollary, and one that has been proven repeatedly on these threads, is that what actually exists is probably not what TEPaul represents.   More specifically, we cannot and should not conclude that TEPaul understood whatever exists or that he has presented it accurately or completely.    In fact, there have been numerous instances where TEPaul has made claims about the contents and meaning of documents he refused to produce and in most every instance the actual information has differed materially from what TEPaul had claimed.   

Probably the safest conclusion and the one best supported by past examples:  If TEPaul makes claims but fails to back them up then his claims are bound to be inaccurate, misleading, and/or incomplete. 

[TEPaul]

"The obvious corollary, and one that has been proven repeatedly on these threads, is that what actually exists is probably not what TEPaul represents."


I'm quite sure you'd agree there is only one REAL way to FIND OUT. And if you can't agree with that, well, then, that surely would be very funny!  

If these Merion and Myopia threads have proven anything it is that if someone wants to do a credible job of researching the architectural histories of club's like these and really satisfying themselves with it they should endeavor to do it themselves particularly if one is as hard to satisfy as you and Tom MacWood seem to be. It is just so interesting to me how you constantly avoid that central issue on this website!  

It's always easier to blame what you failed to do yourself and what you fail to have on someone other than yourself, isn't it?  

[Melvyn Morrow]

Tom

When I posted the following  “I feel we should be seen to be fair thus questioning if these gentlemen had the knowledge to lay out a course. They certainly had the means to do so, but that does not necessary translate into ability”. I was trying to be fair and honest, to pursue the debate in an open and fair manner, but you clearly are not interested in the truth. 

Well Tom you should be proud of yourself. I now find myself questioning whether you really are after the truth.

Melvyn 

[TEPaul]

“I feel we should be seen to be fair thus questioning if these gentlemen had the knowledge to lay out a course. They certainly had the means to do so, but that does not necessary translate into ability”.


Melvyn:

Is it possible that the way you wrote that statement is not really what you meant to say? The way I read it is you are saying that to be seen to be fair we must question if those particular men had the knowledge or ability to stake out nine tees and greens at Myopia. For starters what do you even know about those men?

We have already had one or two on this website (one who wrote an essay on here to this effect) that it should be an ACCEPTED and working FACT for us that an intelligent and highly educated man such as Hugh Wilson who was a very good golfer was NOT CAPABLE of routing and planning Merion East in 1911 because he should have been considered a total novice AT THAT POINT.

Sorry Melvyn but THAT is perhaps the biggest bunch of bullshit anyone has ever tried to foist on this website. It simply cannot continue to go UNCHALLENGED.

And THAT is perhaps less than even half the historical matter that should be considered and discussed on here if we ever want to get to the TRUTH of what some of those men back in that particular time REALLY thought and about various people as well!

If YOU cannot even bring yourself to both consider and discuss THAT then I'm afraid it is you who are not really after the truth of that age in American architecture.

[DMoriarty]

Tom

When I posted the following  “I feel we should be seen to be fair thus questioning if these gentlemen had the knowledge to lay out a course. They certainly had the means to do so, but that does not necessary translate into ability”. I was trying to be fair and honest, to pursue the debate in an open and fair manner, but you clearly are not interested in the truth. 

Well Tom you should be proud of yourself. I now find myself questioning whether you really are after the truth.

Melvyn 

That is really the question Melvyn, and one that TEPaul has answered many times.  In his mind there is no need for a search for the truth because he thinks he already knows the truth, and nothing we say is going to change that.     Not only that, but he will do whatever he can to preserve that truth, even if it means constantly misrepresenting by position (as he does immediately above) and demanding that people like you accept that I am an imposter and a charlatan before he will even discuss this stuff with you. 

[TEPaul]

 "In his mind there is no need for a search for the truth because he thinks he already knows the truth, and nothing we say is going to change that."


I do indeed think I already know the truth (with what-all we have now) and I do know nothing you say is going to change that unless and until you get off your ass and your arrogant semi-know-nothing argumentative pulpit on here and actually go to those golf courses and clubs and research what I have at them and from them. THAT is the inescapable FACT of ALL or THIS! Failing that, it is true, I don't see there is much else you and MacWood (or Melvyn) could say at this point, that will change any of that. I certainly do know Merion and Myopia doesn't either (the fact you have no understanding of how many people and for how long I've known at those clubs is now a totally foregone conclusion).

I will also say again, what I said once before, that you seemed to take great umbrage at, but my primary concern and interest is what the clubs, the likes of Merion and Myopia, think about any of this, not people like you and MacWood and Melvyn on this website. I don't doubt that your concerns are with your credibilty and reputations to research well and perhaps analyze well and such but I think at least two of you have done a pretty weak job of that in the last six years and have completely failed to admit it or refused to admit it, all things considered. And I do admit I do take comfort in the fact I am definitely in the vast majority opinion on that where I feel it matters most!