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Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Willie Campbell & Myopia
« Reply #1325 on: January 02, 2011, 11:05:31 AM »
The girl in the back of the room standing on the right is credited with bringing golf to to New England. The painting is the 'Daughters of Edward Darley Boit' (1882) by John Singer Sargent and the little girl is Florence Boit. In 1892 she brought a set of clubs and balls to Arthur Hunnelwell's estate in Wellesley, and the game took off from there. Edward Boit was an American artist, like Sargent, who had moved to Paris, which is where the painting was made. Both men had ties to Boston as well. Florence Boit was introduced to the golf while on holiday at Pau.

This is a well known painting and when I first saw it never had a clue there was a connection to golf. It is a very unusual composition; I had always wondered if the two girls in the back (Florence and Jane) were servants, because of their dress.  

« Last Edit: January 02, 2011, 01:10:55 PM by Tom MacWood »

Joe Bausch

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Willie Campbell & Myopia
« Reply #1326 on: January 02, 2011, 11:29:58 AM »
One thing is for certain:  if you browse the Boston Evening Transcript from 1894 until his death in 1890, there are numerous mentions of Willie Campbell being involved with laying out golf courses.  The other day I found this blurb (November 26, 1898) by the BET golf writer, which indicates the original 9-holer of Cohasset Golf Club was done by Campbell:

@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Willie Campbell & Myopia
« Reply #1327 on: January 02, 2011, 12:41:22 PM »
David,

I said I thought of you that way in some respects to illustrate our differences of opinion and approach, but I am sorry if it came off like I thought you were whack jobs.  As I have said before using several different analogies, I believe that certain groups of general thought processes tend to go together in most people.  No right or wrong intended, just an observation of how those differences can cause endless conflict.

I can’t compare your batting average with those Kennedy conspiracy guys, but you have had some successes as a hobby historian.  Hopefully, you will have many more, and I will not dwell on any failures that may arise from your efforts, which can be the “nature of the beast”.

And, all I have really askied you to do is consider those old club records, if they become available, and if relevant to the topic at hand.  I think we would both agree the historical process works best using all the documents (official and otherwise) we can assemble, but if we can’t get them, I believe acknowledging what we probably don’t have (as Phil suggested) rather than strongly dismissing and ignoring them is more credible.  Simple point, and not worth ten pages of disagreement.

TMac,

From your last post, is there a chance that George Singer Sergeant is somehow related to the current Golf Course Architect George Sergeant? 

From your post last night, I think your insults are off base in the context your relative accomplishments in golf history.  I have designed 50 courses, some of which are ranked, and many others that are simply enjoyed daily by thousands of golfers, which is nothing to sneeze at.  I do acknowledge it would always be nice to get a few more plums, but am happy to have provided high quality and affordable golf on most of my projects. 

Since you start the insult ball rolling, without ever having seen one of my courses, I have seen your "work" and can sum up your crowning accomplishments in your chosen hobby in a few words:  HH Barker, train schedules, and Merion.     You won't live that one down, and we take most of your stuff with a grain of salt. 

But, my comments do not mean that I don’t appreciate your desire to inform us about early architects who are not as well known (as I am not well known). I hope you will have many more successes in your hobby, and I will try not to dwell on inevitable failures that may arise from your best efforts.

You are right, BTW, that I don't really care one way or the other if Willie Campbell actually designed the first nine holes at Myopia that lasted a year.  In reality, the world ain't gonna rock off its axis if the Myopia design riddle is never solved to your satisfaction, nor are many institutions going to change their views. And the legacy of Willie Campbell is secure with all his other accomplishments regardless of whether he gets one more notch in his bedpost.

I have been happy to acknowledge that those newspaper reports place WC on the scene, but my “casual" interest in history of my profession is oriented to the actual process used over time, and in different places, to better understand my profession, rather than adding to a credit list, like someone with a historian mindset might.

As Seinfeld might say, "Not that there is anything wrong with that!" 
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Mike Cirba

Re: Willie Campbell & Myopia
« Reply #1328 on: January 02, 2011, 12:58:33 PM »
As I've mentioned numerous times, I do think Campbell was involved but don't feel that somehow precludes the initial planning work of the three members.

But here's where I keep getting stuck:

We know Dacre Bush told us the course opened for play around June 1st and we know he also told us they used sod (at least for the greens) as we saw they did at Appleton's far, and we then read an account of May 19 (repeated in a few papers) suggesting that the course is still needing to be "laid out".

Something about that makes no sense to me...the same account states one can watch play on the "entire course" from a high vantage point.

How could one watch play on the entire course if a routing plan didn't already exist and how could the course not already be planned and green locations already identified if sod is going to be used and time (greater than approx 10 days post-article) is needed for construction, grow-in, and sheep cutting? 

Does this make sense to anyone?

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Willie Campbell & Myopia
« Reply #1329 on: January 02, 2011, 01:23:04 PM »
Mike,

Add in Weeks retelling of Bush's account of them "footing the property" after being appointed in March 1894, and I can agree with you it makes sense that they at least got the ball rolling, and later called in Willie C for reasons unknown, but most likely related to his greater experience and their lack thereof, or perhaps some specific problems.

That said, I think our word parsing friends will tell us that me backing you up doesn't count, and that attribution must be an either/or proposition, even if it has been proven that it wasn't always that way back in those days, but if it makes you feel better, at least I agree with your premise.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Willie Campbell & Myopia
« Reply #1330 on: January 02, 2011, 01:30:22 PM »
Something about that makes no sense to me...the same account states one can watch play on the "entire course" from a high vantage point.

How could one watch play on the entire course if a routing plan didn't already exist and how could the course not already be planned and green locations already identified if sod is going to be used and time (greater than approx 10 days post-article) is needed for construction, grow-in, and sheep cutting?


Mike

You can't actually watch play if the course doesn't exist. In your earlier post I think you referred to the article stating that you WILL be able to watch play on all the holes once it has been laid out and that therefore implies the course MUST have already been planned (my paraphrasing and my capitals). That I think is basically wrong.

Lets take for example a club leasing a 50 acre field to lay out 9 holes, and that the entire field can be seen from a higher vantage point. There are numerous examples, at least in this country, where new clubs went ahead and negotiated the lease of land first and then designed the course after therefore if all of the land acquired can be seen from the vantage point then so will the course once it has been designed and built, no ?

Thats not to say that the course hadn't already been planned when the article you refer to was written, its just from what you say of it, that it can be taken that it was.

Niall

Mike Cirba

Re: Willie Campbell & Myopia
« Reply #1331 on: January 02, 2011, 01:39:34 PM »
Jeff,

Thanks for your feedback and thoughts on this;  it certainly makes me wonder what the men appointed sometime before the 4/15 news report indicating their assignment to bring golf to Myopia, most likely done at the March meeting...well, it makes me wonder what the hell they were supposedly doing for two months?

I guess they were perhaps just sitting on their keisters waiting for some time two months later when Willie Campbell would come by around May 19th, hungry sheep apparently in tow, and then would route a gold course, order sod, and then use it to construct greens and open for play about ten days later, all the while turning HC Leeds into an expert golfer and knowledgeable architect, laying out TCC and Essex at the same time, and teaching the game to the Boston citizenry, all with his hands tied behind his back..  ;)

Who says good help is hard to find? Apparently not in those miraculous days!!  ;D
« Last Edit: January 02, 2011, 02:28:54 PM by MCirba »

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Willie Campbell & Myopia
« Reply #1332 on: January 02, 2011, 02:09:36 PM »
Mike,

To avoid upsetting others, its good that you labeled your comments as speculation or wonder.

I think you have mixed up May 19th and March 19th in your post.

And, while I didn't have waffles for breakfast, and did not stay at a Holiday Inn last night, to prove my open mindedness, I will say that I can see that TMac may be completely right.  To be honest, if we put ourselves in the mindset of taking the opening day articles that WC laid out the course as gospel, I have no problem following out the DM/TMac logic to its conclusion.  

On that March day they had the annual meeting in Boston, perhaps they did realize Campbell was coming within a month, and thought it likely they would hire him to lay out the golf course, as would Brookline, but knew much prepratory work needed to be done before that.

As such, perhaps the "footing the property" was only to figure out a general area that wouldn't upset the horsey set, as that was apparently a big issue.  Thus, they started talking to Hopkins about whether he would lease his land, and that was decided by the May 19 article, as was the decision to import some more sheep.  Perhaps sod suitable for greens was located and even trimmed down by existing sheep in preparing for cut based on Appleton's experience.  

All would fall under the literal words in the report that they took actions in "preparation for golf" without actually having the course designed itself.   In the Merion threads, the record shows that they waited until March for CBM to come out, which seemed very delayed for construction starting right about the same time, albeit, history shows they also did some prep work in routing, agronomy and the like before having CBM approve it.  In my opinion, the record also shows that they selected the land pre-routing, although they had and used the right to tweak it.  This process at Myopia could have been similar and as time consuming as what has been proven at Merion, a club with a similar amateur sportsman mindset.

When WC got here about April 1, and after a month to settle in, they brought him up for a day to lay out "18 stakes in an afternoon".  While they may have taken stabs at routing, they did nothing until he approved it or had a chance to see the property.  Maybe he laid out Appleton's course in early april, and came back to Myopia in May. He may have also designed the greens.  One was said to be far too narrow, but hey, perhaps they told him to design them anyway he wanted, as long as he didn't exceed the 10,000 SF of sod that they had put aside based on the Appleton experience, and Willie decided to get jiggy with one green making it long and narrow.

Because of their earlier preparations, it may have been easier to get the course in rough shape for a June 18 opening tournament.  Things do take time, but we also know they considered this an improvised course.

All of the above timeline is only loosely supported with facts, but it does seem plausible.  Like you, I do have questions that could torpedo that time line.  I also wonder why, if WC was planned to lay out the course in March, why the club, which supplied the info to the reporter, wouldn't have said "to be laid out by WC on land fully visible from the clubhouse".  But, we don't know that for a fact, either. Perhaps they mentioned it and the reporter didn't understand the importance of the statement.
 
I also wonder how it was that WC was dismissed later in favor of club memeber Leeds.  Logic says that either WC wasn't considered the designer, of if he was, when the real course got built, they decided he wasn't as good a fit as Leeds, perhaps because of that same amateur sportsman outlook.  But, maybe the early guys didn't have that stern, Leeds outlook, and had no reservations about using Willie until Leeds came along and convinced them otherwise later in 1894.  Nothing known necessarily precludes them from using Willie up front, or suggest that his work was inferior.  It may also be a result purely of Leeds desire to design courses, and/or the club's respect for Leeds, or his attitude towards pros, which caused them to never mention Willie's original work again.  Or maybe, once the final course was in play, as a result of Leeds, their mindset was that the actual creation of that improvised course simply wasn't important any more since it was bulldozed a year later (horse dozed?).

Thus, TMac is right that WC didn't get the proper notch in the bed post that he properly deserves by todays attribution standards.

It is all fascinating to me, but you know me, I just look at this stuff as a parlor game anyway!  Like a good debater, I could probably take one side in the morning, and the other in the afternoon.
« Last Edit: January 02, 2011, 02:39:12 PM by Jeff_Brauer »
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Mike Cirba

Re: Willie Campbell & Myopia
« Reply #1333 on: January 02, 2011, 02:38:35 PM »
Niall,

Good point, and agree that it's a bit of a chicken and egg thing.

I just find it very odd that the course was supposedly not routed by May 19th, yet was sodded and opened for play about 10 days later.

Melvyn in another thread tells us that courses took about 3 months from inception to opening in those very early days, and I'm presuming he's talking mostly about linksland, sandy soils.  

I simply can't imagine how one could route, sod, grow-in, and open a course within 10 days, but perhaps I'm simply underestimating the skills of Willie Campbell.

Jeff,

All possible scenarios, and some interesting speculation.

Frankly, I think anyone who posts here about Myopia's origins is speculating by definition because none of us knows the answer for certain and none of us besides Tom Paul has seen the other evidence in the form of club records, and he told me it was about five years ago and he was only looking up something very specific to see where Weeks got his info, and had about 10 minutes to do so.

I'm hopeful he'll get more information this coming year, but also doubtful that he'd share it here given the present unfortunate tenor around these matters.

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Willie Campbell & Myopia
« Reply #1334 on: January 02, 2011, 02:45:37 PM »
Mike,

Yes, it is speculation and we all do it to fill in the blanks between the few actual documents in use.  TePaul also told me of his brief time in the Myopia archives and his opinion that Weeks used early records extensively.  But, we don't know what they say, and really, if there is no mention of Campbell, it really could be because of Leeds lowly opinions of pros.  They might have felt a bit cheap and dirty using him to lay out the course, thus causing Willie's ghost to roll over in his grave at the lack of attribution for his fine, albeit temporary work.

IF they did that, I don't think it makes them bad guys, but it would just be a reflection of the signs of the times then, and their attitude.  On the other hand, its possible that they simply did it in house, following Appleton who was apparently a few months to a season ahead of them.  Or like Merion, they could have chosen to do it themselves, but be practical enough to use Willie as an outlet backup source, just as a double check, but didn't think he did enough to credit him for.

Its all possible.  I wonder if I will get an earful for speculating, even when it is an attempt to be 100% supportive of the opposing theories?
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Mike Cirba

Re: Willie Campbell & Myopia
« Reply #1335 on: January 02, 2011, 02:55:38 PM »
Oh Jeff...I'm sure we'll both be scolded.    Likely we'll both also have cause for personal embarrassment, I'm certain.  ::)

btw...I just noted that the authoritative anonymous, high-society gossip columnist who said the course was laid out by Campbell also said that Leeds beat Dr. Hopkins in the opening day tournament at Myopia by two points, which leads me to now believe we should immediately yield to what is clearly an expert opinion on the game of golf and its architecture.
« Last Edit: January 02, 2011, 02:59:07 PM by MCirba »

Phil_the_Author

Re: Willie Campbell & Myopia
« Reply #1336 on: January 02, 2011, 02:59:13 PM »
Mike,

See you once again show a complete inability to understand what was written in the article. That newspaper writer was quite savvy as Leeds did beat Hopkins as they were playing a match for the very first time under the Stableford system of scoring...

Mike Cirba

Re: Willie Campbell & Myopia
« Reply #1337 on: January 02, 2011, 03:00:58 PM »
Phil,

Is that why Dr. Hopkins let caution fly to the wind and actually tried to reach the daunting 8th hole with his 7th shot?? 

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Willie Campbell & Myopia
« Reply #1338 on: January 02, 2011, 03:02:08 PM »
Mike,

I will probably hear it from David, TMac, and most of all, TePaul!

But, I bring it on myself for trying to be humorous and cheeky when discussing a subject that right along with global warming and world peace, is among the most important topics and debates we face in this country today!

Shame on me!

So, how bad do the Eagles beat the Boys, with our newly crowned head coach? (as of 10:24 this morning?)  His temporary status was similar to, and shorter than the first nine holes at Myopia!

Phil,

Pure specluation!  Why not speculate on how high the ankle socks were on the cart girls for the opening tournament?
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Phil_the_Author

Re: Willie Campbell & Myopia
« Reply #1339 on: January 02, 2011, 03:03:07 PM »
See, now you're starting to understand!

Mike Cirba

Re: Willie Campbell & Myopia
« Reply #1340 on: January 02, 2011, 03:04:34 PM »
Jeff,

I don't know...it seems the Eagles have really nothing to play for, correct?   Of course, the way the Cowboys season has gone they might trip over themselves trying to score a winning touchdown against the Eagles bench reserves.

Or am I speculating without the appropriate supporting facts again?  ;)  


Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Willie Campbell & Myopia
« Reply #1341 on: January 02, 2011, 03:05:21 PM »
Mike,

Add in Weeks retelling of Bush's account of them "footing the property" after being appointed in March 1894, and I can agree with you...


Retelling Bush's account of them 'footing the property'? Where do you come up with this stuff? Do you just making up it as you go?

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Willie Campbell & Myopia
« Reply #1342 on: January 02, 2011, 03:07:59 PM »
Mike,

It actually occurs to me that if they were playing on less than month old sodded greens, well over half their inflated strokes could have been fifth, sixth, or seventh putts that no one could make on account of ridges, bumps and irregularities in the sod.  They may have really been experts from tee to green!

I wonder if all the rules of etiquette applied, or if they played "multiple contemporaneous recovery strokes" from the reportedly rough through the greens areas?

Tom MacWood,

Try to keep up bud.  Our turn to talk trash.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Mike Cirba

Re: Willie Campbell & Myopia
« Reply #1343 on: January 02, 2011, 03:28:41 PM »
Jeff,

Hey, c'mon...I'm sure Campbell had his sheep working those piece of sod down to the sheen of bikini waxed thighs in two weeks time!

And then, in his spare time, taught Leeds everything he knew so that Leeds could become an expert player and then design Kebo Valley a week later.

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Willie Campbell & Myopia
« Reply #1344 on: January 02, 2011, 03:36:20 PM »
Mike,

Yeah and probably multiple sheep chomping contemporaneously, not to mention sporadically fertilzing while they mowed.
One thing we can be sure and agree on regarding this thread, is that there has definitely been some sporadic fertilzers thrown around, dropped, or whatever.

But seriously folks,  I have speculated, which may have diverted this thread unnecessarily at times, but I haven't gotten my head around Leeds and Myopia, and his very sudden entry into golf, expert golf and then design, all in a short time from November 1893 until 1894.

Honestly, for all the brain power and research expended here, he seems to be the guy we ought to be studying more, or at least, his story seems as worthy of telling here more than Willie's.  Not that I don't appreciate all the hard work that TMac did in enlightening me as to the broad scope of Willie's life and times.

Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Willie Campbell & Myopia
« Reply #1345 on: January 02, 2011, 03:40:38 PM »
How do you connect Bush to Weeks' telling of them 'footing the property'?

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Willie Campbell & Myopia
« Reply #1346 on: January 02, 2011, 05:37:23 PM »
Niall,

Thanks for explaining that to Mike.  I've explained it to him about five times, but to no avail.

I'd add that with Myopia it is not even like they had to go out and lease or buy land.  They owned the land, and the land has a hill, so it wasn't a big leap to say there would be visibility of the course.

I'd also add that this idea of the whole course being visible is one of those notions that comes up again and again about many courses in these early articles, even when it is not quite the case.  Apparently golf was more of a spectator sport in those days, so having visibility was a bragging point.
__________________________________________

Mike Cirba,  

If the "points" reference is as close as you can come to undermining that article, then you haven't a "point" to make. The "point" comment as likely came from the source of the information than whoever wrote it up.   Given that Leeds needed 38 less "strokes" than Hopkins, saying Leeds was only two "strokes" better might have sounded odd.

________________________________________

Jeff Brauer,

So far as I know Bush did not describe anyone "footing the property."  Again you seem to be basing your theories on evidence you have assumed into existence.    

As for bad lies and putting at the opening tournament, one of the articles indicated that something akin to 'local rules' were in effect.  Imagine the scores had they been playing golf.  

As for your summary above, beyond Campbell laying out the course I have no idea your basis for any of that.  

Likewise I don't understand your basis for thinking Leeds was more important to the game than Campbell, but I am willing to learn, but in a different thread of course.   Why don't you research the issue, see if the facts support it, and let us know what you find?
« Last Edit: January 02, 2011, 06:14:19 PM by DMoriarty »
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Joe Bausch

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Willie Campbell & Myopia
« Reply #1347 on: January 02, 2011, 05:46:38 PM »
The Weeks book indicates the 5th Masters of the club, succeeding R.M. Appleton in 1901, was George Mandell.  Also in the Weeks book is that Mandell was editor of the Boston Evening Transcript, although it does not say specifically when, but suggests it was during his time as the Master (1901-1910).  His obit in 1934 reveals more, lots more:



If the Boston Evening Transcript could not get details of the club reasonably correct, then what paper could?!   ;) ;D
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Willie Campbell & Myopia
« Reply #1348 on: January 02, 2011, 06:17:03 PM »
Joe, Thanks for posting that article. 

I don't understand your last comment.  What did the paper get wrong?   How is it relevant to who designed Myopia?   
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Mike Cirba

Re: Willie Campbell & Myopia
« Reply #1349 on: January 02, 2011, 07:10:47 PM »
David,

Could you please explain exactly what the local rule likely was the permitted something resembling golf play with competitors attempting to putt?!? on blocks of hairy, bumpy, unknitted, brand-new, transplanted turf? 

Why even play?

I sure hope that subcommittee charged 3 months prior with bringing golf to Myopia got their butts fired for gross malfeasance of duties!  ;D