Willie Campbell & Myopia

[JC Jones]

Tom MacWood,

I am not quoting the Palmetto Club website.  I am quoting a document produced by the club that I have offered to share with you and you have not accepted it.

I think your newspaper articles and periodicals are informative and could be instructive on many matters.  With respect to the date of formation of the club, I will believe what the club itself has to say unless I see something in the club's records that indicate something different.

Also, note how your sources only refer to the 9 hole course.  There was originally a 4 hole course. 

[Tom MacWood]

JC
What document are you referring to and by all means please share it?

[Tom MacWood]

More on Belmont from 1898 to prove attribution was not Willie Campbell, but a troika of members that included Dr. H. Toulmin of Merion Committee fame;

In that same magazine in May 1897 the holes were as follows:

Highway 200
Bunker 308
Ravine 166
Hoodoo Hollow 232
The Cedars 173
Hump Back 208
Long Ridge 253
Round Top 155
Pans Asunerum 351

Was the course redesigned between 1897 and 1898?

In the 5/4/1896 Philadelphia Inquirer it said work has begun on the new and permanent golf links of the Belmont Cricket Club. Three courses are being laid out by Willie Campbell, 18, 9 and short 9 for women. It said work would be pushed in order to make the opening as early as possible. I believe only the nine hole course was actually built.

[Tom MacWood]

Tom,

My point was to refute the Golf Guide as a source that would trump the club's listed date of founding.  The club says it was founded in 1892 with 4 holes being laid out (this comes from a club history document that I offered to send to you yesterday but you did not respond).  The course was later expanded to 9 and then 18 holes (the 4th of the original 4 holes is now the practice range) sometime between 1892 and 1895 with the involvement of Leeds and Mackrell.  I don't know what Leeds did or when exactly he did it.

JC
Evidently this from your document, and it is exactly what the website claims, and exactly what the club history claims. I'm sure they all come from the same source, that being the club history. You believe the club history is 100% accurate, and disregard or reject the 3 golf guides and the 4 contemporaneous articles which contradict the club history? Have you been able to confirm any part of your club history document?

[TEPaul]

"You believe the club history is 100% accurate, and disregard or reject the 3 golf guides and the 4 contemporaneous articles which contradict the club history? Have you been able to confirm any part of your club history document?"


Tom MacWood:

I am not sure I understand how three golf guides and 4 contemporaneous articles contradict the club history. What did those three golf guides and 4 contemporaneous articles say about Palmetto that contradicts the club's history?

[JC Jones]

Tom,

With respect to the date of formation, your articles and golf guides do not speak to the original four hole course on the property.  I read your articles as describing when the 18 hole course was complete.  With that reading, your articles confirm the club history that states the 18 hole course was complete in 1895/96.

Therefore, there is nothing contradictory about your articles. 

[Joe Bausch]

Here is a detailed article called "Myopia's New Course" from the April 29, 1899 edition of the Boston Evening Transcript.

[Mike Cirba]

Tom MacWood,

As I mentioned before, I don't believe the ambitious plans for Willie Campbell designed courses at Belmont cited in that article Joe Bausch found were ever realized.   That may have been due to their relationship with the Cricket Club, or perhaps due to money issues.

At the time of that 1896 article, they were already playing on the course (referred to as the "Temporary Course") that survived and seemingly lengthened as per your yardage descriptions.    By 1903, with the formation of Aronimink, the club was still playing that original course laid out by members.

As regards Palmetto, don't you think it's simply a case of Hitchcock having a private estate course of 4 holes played by a couple of northern friends that got expanded by Leeds before 1895, at which time the club became formalized, and then expanded by Leeds and Mackrell to 18 holes at that time?

As regards what i learned in the past 24 hours...

I learned that Campbell had no documented influence on Herbert Leeds either architecturally or as a golfer.

I learned that contrary to your contention and that erroneous news article, Leeds did not just start playing in the spring of 1894, but in fact was playing at The Country Club since its inception the year before, and almost certainly began playing on the estate courses of Hunnewell and Appleton and others sometime prior to that.   He did not just become by far the best amateur golfer in Boston due to some Campbell inspired two month miracle, but instead was there from the very beginning of the game in the city.

I also learned knew, but overstated, the exact timing of Leeds laying out Kebo Valley and Palmetto, but your larger contention that he was influenced at that time by Campbell's architecture is really not accurate in any way that I can see.    Almost all of his golf at that time had been played on courses designed by amateur members.

I would also make my response much less personal to you, as I mentioned yesterday.   However, when you make erroneous, sweeping suppositional statements disguised as historical fact such as Leeds learned the game from Campbell after only starting to play himself in spring of 1894 and was directly influenced by Campbell architecturally rest assured that they will be challenged with facts.


Joe Bausch,

Awesome article!!

Interesting how it proves that Leeds designed the diagonal 4th hole and also mentions that he eschewed the old horizontal "Cop" bunkers for something more scientific and sound, and proves in fact that it was the first really good architecture in this country as we've contended all along.

[Tom MacWood]

Tom,

With respect to the date of formation, your articles and golf guides do not speak to the original four hole course on the property.  I read your articles as describing when the 18 hole course was complete.  With that reading, your articles confirm the club history that states the 18 hole course was complete in 1895/96.

Therefore, there is nothing contradictory about your articles. 

JC
This from the Brooklyn Daily Eagle 1/6/1898:

"The grounds of the Palmetto Golf club at Aiken are among the best in the country, thousands of dollars having been expended each season for the last three years in improving their condition. This year nine new holes have been added making the total of eighteen, about three miles around."


From Golf magazine February 1898:

"Down at Aiken the golfers are having it all their own way, and the coming tournaments of the Palmetto GC will be closely watched from a distance by those who are unfortunate enough to have to spend the winter months in the north. The additional nine holes have been opened for play, and measure 2546 years, which is 219 yards less than the first nine holes. James Mackerel is back from Frances and again in charge of the links."

[Tom MacWood]

"You believe the club history is 100% accurate, and disregard or reject the 3 golf guides and the 4 contemporaneous articles which contradict the club history? Have you been able to confirm any part of your club history document?"


Tom MacWood:

I am not sure I understand how three golf guides and 4 contemporaneous articles contradict the club history. What did those three golf guides and 4 contemporaneous articles say about Palmetto that contradicts the club's history?

The club was founded in 1895, not 1892. The course was nine holes in 1895, not eighteen. The course was expanded to eighteen holes in 1898, not 1895. Leeds was not involved in any design work at Palmetto prior to 1895.

[Mike Cirba]

Tom MacWood,

The creation of a golf course, especially one on an estate of 4, and then 9 holes, and the incorporation of a club are two separate things, no?

[Tom MacWood]

Tom MacWood,

The creation of a golf course, especially one on an estate of 4, and then 9 holes, and the incorporation of a club are two separate things, no?

The club was founded in 1895 and incorporated in 1902.

[Mike Cirba]

Tom MacWood,

The creation of a golf course, especially one on an estate of 4, and then 9 holes, and the incorporation of a club are two separate things, no?

The club was founded in 1895 and incorporated in 1902.

Tom,

That doesn't tell us when the first 4 holes were built or when they were expanded to nine.

[Tom MacWood]

Mike
The club history claims Thomas Hitchcock Jr. built three or four holes/greens at Aiken in 1892. I have not been able to confirm if that is true or confirm if those holes were incorporated into the 9 hole course that Leeds designed in 1895. Whatever the case it doesn't change the date Palmetto GC was founded, 1895.

[Jim_Kennedy]

I found an 1896 article showing a diagram of Palmetto's nine hole layout. The 5th and 9th holes shared a green.

It also says the club was founded on Jan 10th, 1895.

[Tom MacWood]

Tom MacWood,

As I mentioned before, I don't believe the ambitious plans for Willie Campbell designed courses at Belmont cited in that article Joe Bausch found were ever realized.   That may have been due to their relationship with the Cricket Club, or perhaps due to money issues.

The complete plans were never realized that is true, but it sounds like you're not sure if some of the plan was realized or not? The article claimed construction was underway. Was the course altered between 1897 and 1898?

At the time of that 1896 article, they were already playing on the course (referred to as the "Temporary Course") that survived and seemingly lengthened as per your yardage descriptions.    By 1903, with the formation of Aronimink, the club was still playing that original course laid out by members.

[TEPaul]

"The club was founded in 1895, not 1892. The course was nine holes in 1895, not eighteen. The course was expanded to eighteen holes in 1898, not 1895. Leeds was not involved in any design work at Palmetto prior to 1895."


Well, so you say, but it seems the club's history disagrees with you. I would definitely tend to take the word of the club and its history rather than yours or some Brooklyn newspaper or any other periodical. Clubs generally know a whole lot more about what they are doing, when and why, than newspapers and periodicals which are inherently indirect sources of information. The club is the direct source.

But I can certainly understand your proclivity for promoting only your source material which is almost always indirect newspaper and periodical accounts and not a club's source material or history because the fact is you have been to so few of the clubs whose histories you question and looked at their archives and source material for their histories.

[Tom MacWood]

"The club was founded in 1895, not 1892. The course was nine holes in 1895, not eighteen. The course was expanded to eighteen holes in 1898, not 1895. Leeds was not involved in any design work at Palmetto prior to 1895."


Well, so you say, but it seems the club's history disagrees with you. I would definitely tend to take the word of the club and its history rather than yours or some Brooklyn newspaper or any other periodical. Clubs generally know a whole lot more about what they are doing, when and why, than newspapers and periodicals which are inherently indirect sources of information. The club is the direct source.

But I can certainly understand your proclivity for promoting only your source material which is almost always indirect newspaper and periodical accounts and not a club's source material or history because the fact is you have been to so few of the clubs whose histories you question and looked at their archives and source material for their histories.

You would tend to take the word of the club and its history over a boat load of contradictory evidence? That is shocking!

[Mike Cirba]

Tom MacWood,

I would agree with you that the club at Palmetto was founded in 1895, but I would also bet the golf holes that Hitchcock and subsequently Leeds built were all done prior to then, thus the attribution confusion.

I'm not sure how you can possibly be so sure of your newspaper sources after yesterday's debacle, where you told us that Herbert C. Leeds only started playing the game in the spring of 1894, and then was playing matches against Willie Campbell and playing at scratch at Myopia and designing Kebo Valley two months later?  

[TEPaul]

"Whatever the case it doesn't change the date Palmetto GC was founded, 1895."



Tom MacWood:

Perhaps not but that certainly does not change the fact there could've been four holes on that property from 1892. The fact is the eastern hunting and polo interests had been going to Aiken for years and those men in that hunting and polo world owned a lot of land down there before any of the golf. If you are ever going to really understand some of these early "eastern establishment" golf courses you need to understand a lot more about the entire world of those people and the fact is you just don't.

[Phil_the_Author]

Tom,

Take a very close look at the article you quoted from as I believe it actually contradicts what you state about Palmetto and 1895:

“JC, This from the Brooklyn Daily Eagle 1/6/1898:"The grounds of the Palmetto Golf club at Aiken are among the best in the country, thousands of dollars having been expended each season for the last three years in improving their condition. This year nine new holes have been added making the total of eighteen, about three miles around."

I highlighted the date of the article and the relevant phrase. According to what it states, in 1895 the course was "expanded" and not built!

I come to this conclusion because it states that in EACH of the LAST THREE YEARS... Certainly since the article was published on January 6, 1898, one of those three years could NOT be 1898. So that means the course was expanded in each of the three preceding years of 1897, 1896 and 1895!

So it appears that the club history and J.C.'s information are correct. That there was an original course before 1895, in this case the obvious 4-holer that the club history references, and that in 1895 Leeds and the pro expanded it to 9 holes.  

[Tom MacWood]

1895, 1896 and 1897? The club was founded in January 1895. Your logic eludes me.

Dollars expended on conditioning, not expanded.

[Phil_the_Author]

Tom,

I misread it and saw expanded where you wrote expended. My mistake...

Still,I maintain that the article was definitely refering to 1895, 1896 & 1897 as it says it occurred during the "last three years." Unless they spent a whole lot of money and did a whole lot of work from January 1-5 of 1898, it could NOT be refering to that year as the article was published on January 6th.

How that logic can elude you is beyond my understanding...

[Mike Cirba]

Well, this thread has been very useful.

In the past two days we've learned that Herbert Leeds was well experienced in golf long before Willie Campbell arrived, and we've also learned the Leeds was responsible for the 4th hole, diagonal hazards, and the creation of thoughtful bunkering on the Myopia course.

If anything, it seems Leeds work was more a move away from the kind of architecture practiced by Campbell than towards it.

[DMoriarty]

I'm not sure how you can possibly be so sure of your newspaper sources after yesterday's debacle, where you told us that Herbert C. Leeds only started playing the game in the spring of 1894, and then was playing matches against Willie Campbell and playing at scratch at Myopia and designing Kebo Valley two months later?  

Mike I know that you don't like when I say this, but I really want to try and get through to you.  You really should be embarrassed by this sort of thing.  
-- You know Leeds was not anywhere near a "scratch golfer" in the spring of 1894.   In three tournaments he shot 109, 112, and 113. The day before Leeds shot his 109, Campbell had shot 84 on the same course (with a 9 on the last hole.)
-- You know that Leeds himself wasn't playing matches against Campbell.  As was quite common at the time, Leeds was paired with another professional, W.D. Davis, against Campbell and another skilled beginner of similar ability as Leeds.  It was essentially a pro-am; a side event to the main event of Campbell v. Davis.  It was NOT Leeds vs. Campbell, but rather a quality professional and a skilled beginner vs. a quality professional and a skilled beginner.  

Likewise, you grossly exaggerate when you claim that Leeds was "well experienced" in golf "long before" Campbell arrived.  You posted a few articles indicating he was playing very late in the year in 1893, but that hardly make him "well experience long before he arrived."

It is the same problem it has always been.    You are unable or unwilling to honestly consider and present the facts.    Every single fact has to be exaggerated and overstated and stretched well past the point of breaking.  Every single fact is treated as if it is the smoking gun that makes your whole case.  
- They were on a committee?  Well then they definitely designed the course!  
- A paper indicated they played golf?  Well then they must have designed!  
- He and another advanced beginner got to partner with two professionals in a match?  Well then they were equals of the professionals.
- He was the best among beginners and men who had never played golf?   Well then he was a scratch golfer!

This sort of thing doesn't advance your argument, it undermines your credibilty.   And in creates major tension in that it is incredibly frustrating to have to deal with such ridiculousness and hyperbolic logic again and again.   It is definitely the reason I have so little respect for you and what you write, and it is very difficult to keep that disrespect from coming out in  what I write.  I have tried and will try harder to curb and/or mask that disrespect, but come on, help me out here just a little.

Just be reasonable.  Quit being a zealot.  There is no place for zealots in this sort of conversation.