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JNC Lyon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Monroe Country Club, Monroe, NY
« on: July 31, 2009, 10:50:38 AM »
For all of the nine-hole course fanatics and William S. Flynn fanatics on this website, I assumed I would have heard about any course possessing both of these characteristics.  I thought it would be even more likely to hear about such a course that was within an hour's drive of New York City.  Yet, one week ago, I had no idea Monroe Country Club in Monroe, NY existed.

I got the opportunity to play Monroe Country Club two days ago.  I was driving back to Rochester from Oradell, NJ (where I got the opportunity to play Hackensack Golf Club with GCAer Bill Brightly).  Monroe happens to be a small town in Southern New York near the intersection of Route 17 and Interstate 87.  Although my buddy and I had commitments for the afternoon, we were able to play the nine William Flynn holes early in the morning before our trip upstate.

I thought the William Flynn layout was almost too good to be true, but the course surpassed all of my expectations.  The course maintains its original Flynn routing.  8 of 9 greens are Flynn originals; only the 8th green has been re-contoured, although it still maintains its original location.  The 8 greens are magnificent creations.  The most spectacular sites are 2 and 7, where Flynn benched the greens into hillsides to create dramatic short game options.  3 of the greens (5, 6, and 9) are absolutely flush with the slope of the land.  It appears that Flynn simply rolled a giant carpet onto the ground and used it as the greensite.  There is no evidence of man's hand within the internal green contours.  The course is well under 6,000 yards for the 18 hole configuration at a par of 70, but there is not a single hole without challenge or interest.  My favorite hole was the seventh.  For us, it was a downhill par four with a diagonal tee shot over the creek that dominates the routing.  After a good drive, the second shot is a short iron to a shelf green that tilts severely from left to right.  There is a steep falloff to the right that is death.  For the back nine configuration, the hole plays as a par five with the creek dominating the tee shot.  Flynn originally had bunkers cutting diagonally across the fairway to confront the second shot.  Our host at Monroe hopes to restore these bunkers in the near future.

The course was especially unique because of golden-age maintenance.  The course is still without a sprinkler system.  Despite this year's wet summer, the course played firm and fast in the morning dew.  Wild bounces were commonplace, and low running pitch shots were the smartest options around the greens.  The greens were not nearly up to modern speeds, but they rolled true and were very steep.  It is on such a course that brains prevails over pure talent and strength.

Flynn's layout at Monroe is a trip back in time, but for me it represents how golf should really be played.

I would love to opinions about Monroe from any Flynn or golf fans who have been lucky enough to play this layout.
"That's why Oscar can't see that!" - Philip E. "Timmy" Thomas

Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Monroe Country Club, Monroe, NY
« Reply #1 on: July 31, 2009, 12:56:59 PM »
JNC,
One big Flynn fan, Wayne Morrison, said:  "The club (MCC) paid him $320.00 for the design. They may have overpaid".

I love golf courses that take you back in time, and I mainly choose to play the type on my day off.
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Dan Herrmann

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Monroe Country Club, Monroe, NY
« Reply #2 on: July 31, 2009, 01:04:32 PM »
How did I not know about this club?  I spent a year living in Orange County, NY.

I've gotta get up there soon - looks like another Flynn gem!

PS - There's another super Monroe CC in NY - This one in Monroe County (Rochester).  A true Ross classic

Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Monroe Country Club, Monroe, NY
« Reply #3 on: July 31, 2009, 01:59:28 PM »
JNC,
Here is Wayne's complete critique:

"For someone whose body of work is very strong across the board, Flynn missed the boat with Monroe Country Club, a nine hole course designed in 1922 in Monroe, NY. and opened in 1924.  Originally private, it is now a public facility (many NYC firemen and policemen are members) on uninspiring land.  Flynn was paid $303.27 to lay out the course and I'm not so sure they got their money's worth"-W.Morrison

As I said earlier, I love this old-style presentation and wish more courses would opt for it. Of course, they wouldn't be highly regarded if they did.
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

JNC Lyon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Monroe Country Club, Monroe, NY
« Reply #4 on: August 01, 2009, 11:45:14 AM »
I am really surprised to hear that assessment of Monroe from Wayne Morrison.  I thought the land was very interesting.  In fact, there isn't a single flat hole or uninteresting greensite on the entire golf course.  Furthermore, the routing makes superb use of the terrain.  I'm not really sure what Flynn could have done better with the 55 acres that he was given.  In my opinion, it's a great routing, and the original plans show tons of interest and strategy.

Personally, I would recommend this course to anyone in the vicinity.  It might be everyone's cup of tea, but for traditionalists it cannot be beat.
"That's why Oscar can't see that!" - Philip E. "Timmy" Thomas

Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Monroe Country Club, Monroe, NY
« Reply #5 on: August 01, 2009, 03:03:52 PM »
JNC,
His comments were so derogatory that I almost hesitated to post them. You'd think there wasn't anything to like about the course, and that's just not true.


"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Mike_Cirba

Re: Monroe Country Club, Monroe, NY
« Reply #6 on: August 01, 2009, 03:20:45 PM »
JNC,
His comments were so derogatory that I almost hesitated to post them. You'd think there wasn't anything to like about the course, and that's just not true.


Jim,

Is there a reason that you can't say you like Monroe without bringing up and taking a shot at Wayne Morrison's opinion?

Fucking A, Jim...Wayne Morrison hasn't posted a word on GCA for ages yet he's brought up more than Michelle Wie.

What a trainwreck and total disgrace this place has become.

And you have the audacity to blame this on the Philly guys?

Have you posted on anything BUT the Moriarty/MacWood/Macdonald party line in the past month?


Well, guess what...you have heard the last from us.

Joe Hancock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Monroe Country Club, Monroe, NY
« Reply #7 on: August 01, 2009, 03:35:32 PM »

Well, guess what...you have heard the last from us.


Sounds like a misquote from a John Wayne movie.....

Not to hijack, but this thread has already gone to crap....but Mike, who do you attribute the train wreck and total disgrace of "this place" to?

Joe
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Monroe Country Club, Monroe, NY
« Reply #8 on: August 01, 2009, 04:18:20 PM »
Mike,
I just went back and searched every post I made from January 1st, 2009 to the present. Outside of this thread I mentioned Wayne (in conjunction with TEP) on one other thread in the past seven months ("Rules of Engagement"). Additionally, no more that 10 of my last 100 posts over the last month had anything to do with CBM,SR,Flynn, Wilso, Merion, etc., or any other "party line" you might dream up, and I usually refrain from cussing out someone I don't agree with.   

JNC said he saw little on this site about MCC, I thought I remembered threads about it and went searching and that's when I saw the remarks by Wayne. I thought they were surprising given JNC's remarks about the course and Wayne's love of Flynn, so I posted them. They were as surprising to me as if I heard George Bahto make such a remark about a Raynor course, or Philip Young about Tilly....and if you want to say that's a little shot at Wayne, well, that's OK with me.

   



"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Monroe Country Club, Monroe, NY
« Reply #9 on: August 02, 2009, 07:44:36 AM »
JNC,
This isn't sexy enough to engender much discussion. Just a nice, plain in form, golf hole.



Or this hole, its one lone bunker guarding the front right (unseen in the photo) isn't enough pizazz for most on this site:



And even though this green sits perfectly on the ridge, it's not going to excite someone who's used to modern exhibits of flash.


'

I think Flynn did a great job of shoe-horning the holes into the site, which is a triangle, and it plays 'quiet', given the location.
« Last Edit: August 02, 2009, 08:34:04 AM by Jim_Kennedy »
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

JNC Lyon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Monroe Country Club, Monroe, NY
« Reply #10 on: August 02, 2009, 02:08:22 PM »
Jim,

Thanks for posting these pictures.  The greensites at 2 and 7 (the second and third pictures), are two of my favorites that I have seen in a while.  If H. S. Colt had built that 7th green in England or Scotland, people would go nuts over it.  I suppose I thought GCA, of all places, would be where courses like this would be loved rather than be treated with disinterest.

Mike Cirba, et. al,

Not every single thread on this website relates directly to the ludicrous debate over the East Course at Merion.  I am sick of reading this garbage.  Honestly, before I posted this, I was very curious about Wayne Morrison's take on Monroe because he is such a Flynn expert.  I am glad Jim posted his comments because of his expert status, regardless of whether or not I agree with them.  Frankly, I'm disgusted that you had to bring the Merion bickering into this thread about a fun, old nine-holer.  I would love to hear any comments you might have about Monroe or courses like it.  Personal debates need not apply.
"That's why Oscar can't see that!" - Philip E. "Timmy" Thomas

John Foley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Monroe Country Club, Monroe, NY
« Reply #11 on: August 02, 2009, 09:36:57 PM »
John & Jim,

Thanks for the detials.I am in that area often and am always looking for a place to get out to. Since I am very much a Flynn neophyte getting to Monroe sounds like a very good idea for some field work.
Integrity in the moment of choice

mark chalfant

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Monroe Country Club, Monroe, NY
« Reply #12 on: August 03, 2009, 11:37:22 AM »
JNC  and  Jim,

Thanks very much for the report on this scenic  nine holer by William Flynn. It looks like nice greens and the fun factor are alive and well in Monroe.