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Phil Benedict

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Which Modern Courses Look The Oldest?
« on: July 30, 2009, 06:04:37 PM »
Last weekend I played one classic era course - Essex County - and one modern daily fee course - Elks Run, a Greg Norman in Kentucky.
One of the many reasons I enjoyed Essex County more is that it looks like it's been there forever, which of course it has.  One of the things I like about older courses no matter who built them is the sense of timelesness, which I don't get with modern courses.

I noticed a quote from Renaisance Design's website on another thread that talked about working the land in order to make the course look older than it is. 

What modern courses succeed the most at achieving the sense of timelessness, so that, if you didn't know when they were built, you'd guess they are older than they actually are?
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Paul Carey

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Re: Which Modern Courses Look The Oldest?
« Reply #1 on: July 30, 2009, 06:13:29 PM »
Beechtree (NLE) was amazing to me.  It looked like it had been there for many years.

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Joel Zuckerman

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Re: Which Modern Courses Look The Oldest?
« Reply #2 on: July 30, 2009, 06:15:21 PM »
Phil--I would cast a quick vote for Chechessee Creek Club near Hilton Head---a Crenshaw/Coore design.

BTW--Were you in a private jet for your weekend jaunt, or is the Essex County you refer to NOT on Boston's North Shore?
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Scott Szabo

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Re: Which Modern Courses Look The Oldest?
« Reply #3 on: July 30, 2009, 06:30:55 PM »
Sand Hills would have to be in the mix, wouldn't it?
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David Stamm

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Re: Which Modern Courses Look The Oldest?
« Reply #4 on: July 30, 2009, 07:03:40 PM »
Rustic Canyon. Hence the name....
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Chip Gaskins

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Re: Which Modern Courses Look The Oldest?
« Reply #5 on: July 30, 2009, 08:02:51 PM »
Austin Golf Club

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Jaeger Kovich

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Re: Which Modern Courses Look The Oldest?
« Reply #6 on: July 30, 2009, 08:08:35 PM »
Ill add another CC course to the list... If you look past the construction trailers that were in the parking lot, I would say Friars Head looks the oldest. Perhaps there is some sort of connection with minimalism and this "old feeling"?!
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Phil Benedict

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Re: Which Modern Courses Look The Oldest?
« Reply #7 on: July 30, 2009, 08:08:36 PM »
Essex County in New Jersey. I flew commercial to Cincinnati which is how I ende up at Elks Run.
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Dean Paolucci

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Re: Which Modern Courses Look The Oldest?
« Reply #8 on: July 30, 2009, 09:24:16 PM »
I would nomminate Bayonne GC.  It has a very old world feel.  Down to the wooden steps which are furrowed out and made to simulate years of wear to mention a very minute detail.
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Tommy Williamsen

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Re: Which Modern Courses Look The Oldest?
« Reply #9 on: July 30, 2009, 09:55:46 PM »
Dean, I immediately thought of Bayonne as well.  The paths looked worn as did the greens surrounds etc.  It was amazing.  I played it the first year it was opened and it began that way. The only thing that seemed out of place was the skyline.
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Ed Oden

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Re: Which Modern Courses Look The Oldest?
« Reply #10 on: July 30, 2009, 10:38:05 PM »
To my eye, no modern course feels more timeless than Pacific Dunes.

Is it any coincidence that almost all the courses mentioned so far are links-like in character?  I suppose it is far easier to create an old time feel wiith that type of design.  I can't think of a purely parkland modern course that really pulls it off.

Related question:  Did the golden age courses that now appear timeless have that same look and feel when they were created?  I suspect not. 

Ed
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Andy Troeger

Re: Which Modern Courses Look The Oldest?
« Reply #11 on: July 30, 2009, 11:20:33 PM »
The Warren GC at Notre Dame has an old feel to it.
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Rob Rigg

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Re: Which Modern Courses Look The Oldest?
« Reply #12 on: July 31, 2009, 12:14:56 AM »
The 10 holes of Old Macdonald :)

Some of the look like they have been there for ages - especially with the bunkering techniques put into play and the huge blowouts and other natural features that exist around the course.

I would agree that Pac Dunes looks like it has been there for many years - Bandon Dunes as well.

With the wind, rain, sand blowing, etc. I think a links course ages much faster than a parkland course which will tend to have younger trees, slower maturing grass, etc. while also being maintained with a "newer" look of vibrant green grass, etc.
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Tim Gavrich

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Re: Which Modern Courses Look The Oldest?
« Reply #13 on: July 31, 2009, 02:00:14 AM »
I think Shelter Harbor in Middletown, RI has that old-timey look to it.

Ballyhack fits into its surrounds pretty well.

Does Greenbrier--Old White count?  The routing is from the early 1900s but what is currently on the ground there is only a couple years old, but it looks very well-heeled.
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Joe Bentham

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Re: Which Modern Courses Look The Oldest?
« Reply #14 on: July 31, 2009, 02:28:44 AM »
I agree with Rob.  I know I'm a homer. But I'd almost venture that the holes in play at Old Mac have the oldest look/feel of anything on the property right now.
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Niall C

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Re: Which Modern Courses Look The Oldest?
« Reply #15 on: July 31, 2009, 06:07:55 AM »
Castle Stuart ?

Only kidding but given a bit of time, who knows. I think what maybe distinguishes some of the earlier older courses and the newer ones, is that the older ones look as though the course has been laid over the ground while a lot of newer ones look as though a ton of earth has been moved which is often the case.

Question: is it easier to do this on links like landscapes ? Thinking here of Old Mac, Pacific Dunes, Ballyneal etc - I hasten to add I haven't played any of the above.

Niall
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Dean Paolucci

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Re: Which Modern Courses Look The Oldest?
« Reply #16 on: July 31, 2009, 06:57:03 AM »
Quote from: Tommy Williamsen on July 30, 2009, 09:55:46 PM
Dean, I immediately thought of Bayonne as well.  The paths looked worn as did the greens surrounds etc.  It was amazing.  I played it the first year it was opened and it began that way. The only thing that seemed out of place was the skyline.

Tommy, I know we are in agreement on the overall issue however, won't you agree that for many of the holes you cannot see the skyline?  I think Bergstol did a masterful job mounding many of the fairways to create in context land masses reminisant of terrian you might find in Scotland or Ireland.  Also, keep in mind the question was "Which Modern Courses Look The Oldest?" not Which Modern Courses Look The Oldest and have an old looking vista to boot!  ;D
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"It is better to keep your mouth closed and let people think you are a fool than to open it and remove all doubt."  --  Mark Twain

Ross Tuddenham

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Re: Which Modern Courses Look The Oldest?
« Reply #17 on: July 31, 2009, 07:14:53 AM »
While reading this it got me thinking what is it that makes a course look old or aged?  It is just a general aging of the features such as bunkers or something else as Augusta for example looks pristine but also looks aged?


Do we associate a course looking older because it resembles a course constructed in a certain period in history or because it does look like the features are starting to look worn or “aged”.

So is it to do with what look we expect from an older course, will the TPC Sawgrass look older in 30 years time or will it always look modern.  If more courses like Pac Dunes and ballyneal are constructed will the TPC look older because it is from an era with a different design philosophy?  Or will it look older because it actually is older?
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Mark_Rowlinson

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Re: Which Modern Courses Look The Oldest?
« Reply #18 on: July 31, 2009, 07:28:06 AM »
I haven't seen Castle Stuart, Castle Course, Carnegie Club or either of the new courses near Muirfield, but of the contemporary British courses with which I am acquainted none seems any timelessness, and most of the hgher end courses seem to be trying to ape what we see on the television from the States or Europe.
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Tim Taylor

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Re: Which Modern Courses Look The Oldest?
« Reply #19 on: July 31, 2009, 08:10:53 AM »
Cuscowilla looks like it's been there forever.

Tim
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Shawn Arlia

Re: Which Modern Courses Look The Oldest?
« Reply #20 on: August 02, 2009, 08:29:42 PM »
Phil. Elk's Run is in Batavia Ohio. Its a very nice greg norman course. The creek is in play on seven holes. Those are probably the best holes on the course, especially 13 and 15. What were your views on it?
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Tommy Williamsen

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Re: Which Modern Courses Look The Oldest?
« Reply #21 on: August 02, 2009, 11:50:49 PM »
Quote from: Dean Paolucci on July 31, 2009, 06:57:03 AM
Quote from: Tommy Williamsen on July 30, 2009, 09:55:46 PM
Dean, I immediately thought of Bayonne as well.  The paths looked worn as did the greens surrounds etc.  It was amazing.  I played it the first year it was opened and it began that way. The only thing that seemed out of place was the skyline.

Tommy, I know we are in agreement on the overall issue however, won't you agree that for many of the holes you cannot see the skyline?  I think Bergstol did a masterful job mounding many of the fairways to create in context land masses reminisant of terrian you might find in Scotland or Ireland.  Also, keep in mind the question was "Which Modern Courses Look The Oldest?" not Which Modern Courses Look The Oldest and have an old looking vista to boot!  ;D

Dean, the routing was indeed masterful.  He didn't have a lot of land so he separated many of the holes vertically.  I played the course with Dwight Segall, the head pro, who was most informative.  I agree that the skyline was not in view very often.  It was in view mostly on the last few holes and of course from the clubhouse.  It was not finished when I played the course but I would think the view is spectacular. 
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Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi
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