Is Robert Trent Jones underrated?

[Tom MacWood]

I was reading the thread on underrated golf courses, and I was thinking how at one time RTJ dominated the top 100 lists. At some point his courses, and the courses of his era, fell out of favor and disappeared completely from the lists.

As result are some of his best courses underrated at present? Is RTJ underrated?

[Gary Slatter]

On this site I would think he doesn't stand a chance, is that under rated?  I personally enjoy several of his courses, Firestone being my favourite RTJ Sr course.  During his lifetime I don't think he was under rated.  Personally I think RTJ II is under rated whereas his brother would be over rated(?).

[Adam Russell]

I don't think he's underrated or overrated - regardless of the design lists, his style/innovations dominated after the Golden Age. His seminal courses still fly high (Peachtree), but you may be right to say some of his ORIGINAL designs are underrated. So often his style is cemented in places like Medinah or Oakland Hills where he created massive change but was not the first on-site. However, I still think his overall place in history is just right - upper echelon for a period of time but not in the "greatest" ever discussion.

[Chris_Blakely]

Tom,

I think some of his earlier work is underrated.  Not the factory line (or at least perceived this way) type of work he did later in his career.  I would have to look for the names of some of the other early courses he did that I have played, but two for sure that struck me as been solid were Casperkill CC (formerly IBM CC) in Poughkeepsie, NY and built in the  40's I believe and Hancock GC built in the late 30's.  The latter I believe was his first course design after parting ways with Stanley Thompson.

Chris

[David Stamm]

I'd say quite the opposite.


Jon Spaulding and I just played a RTJ last week for the first time. It was a private club built in 1967, so right after he did Spyglass. I won't speak for Jon, but I was quite disappointed. It's a course we both had wanted to see for quite a while. Nothing memorable, some inappropriate greens for the hole layout, no variety in the par 3's (we hit virutally the same club for all 4) and of course, the runway tees that look so out of place. Jon in fact went to the back of one, hit a wedge and could not quite reach the front of the tee.


Now, in RTJ's defense, this was not a very good piece of property. In addition, I think either Rees or Jr did some "freshening" fairly recently, so I'm not sure there was some major altering of the original course, which I doubt.


I've only played 5 RTJ courses. The runway tees have always bugged me, although I understand what he was trying to do. Aside from Spyglass, it seems he never tried to mix up the par 3 distances. It seems like you're always hitting a 3-5 iron into them. No short par 4's (number 4 at Spyglass being the exception) in general. I think he blew it in the dunes at Spyglass, although 4 is one of the best holes I've seen from him.


I admire RTJ's history to have consistently sold his product on such a broad basis for so many years, but I don't think his abilities as an architect are underrated by any means.

[Matt_Ward]

RTJ benefited from early hype tied to his work -- credit the man himself and his tireless publicist the late Red Hoffman.

Time has a way in sorting out the proper positioning of courses and RTJ has seen that happen to him and it will happen to others as well.

In his own book before shortly passing -- he mentioned the very top tier layouts that he was clearly proud of -- Spyglass is among them.

In my mind, RTJ helped elevated the profession for what one sees today -- but as far as his work is concerned -- it's more about the abundance of it (the sun doesn't set on a RTJ course) through the sheer array of contacts he had than in producing a style that has really endeared itself over the long haul.

[Michael Dugger]

My opinion is that the works of RT Jones Sr. reflect the changing values of golf course architecture as it emerged from the dark era.

More earthmoving was available to designers and courses could be built in places previously thought ill suited to the game; golf courses became about selling housing lots, not creating soul stirring experiences.

Moreover, his era seemed to turn its' back on "sporty" courses.  Naturalism was thought of as inferior as the golf course maintenance industry began to grow exponentially.

Seems to me most RTJ Sr. courses are two loops of nine, four par 3s and four par 5s.  Very formulaic, litte in the way of drivable par 4s or reachable par 5s.  When I think of RTJ Sr. I think "Championship Course" and "hard par, easy bogey."

For what it's worth, his courses have stood the test of time, you can count on getting a solid examination when playing a RTJ course.  

But as far as quirk goes.....or as far as a course being gently drapped across a landscape.....he's not the first 10 or so golf course architects who come to my mind.
 

[Norbert P]

Tom, specifically Jr. or Sr?

[Peter Pallotta]

This thread (and the ones on over/underated golf courses) brought to mind a line by Ronald Coleman, the big Hollywood star of the 1920s and 1930s. He was asked about the huge amounts of money stars like him were being paid, and he said: "Before God, I'm worth a dollar and a half. Before Hollywood, I'm worth whatever my agent can get me".  Which is to say, unless we're using objective criteria -- and everyone seems to agree we aren't and can't -- talking about over/under rating a course or ar architect just adds insult to injury (the injury being the original ranking, just as subjective as any subsequent 're-ranking', the insult)...

Peter

[John Moore II]

I am not sure if his designs are underrated as a whole, I just think that so many big money clubs have opened recently its hard for many of his old designed to compete. You've also seen some outstanding courses open up with holes on the water, that never hurts. But that being said, I think courses like Spyglass and The Dunes Club have held their own over the years. Though certainly one of the reasons behind Spyglass holding on is the money pumped in there to maintain conditions. I think that is the key. There have been so many big money Fazio designs opened up in the last 20+ years that many of the RTJ designs have fallen behind them, as have the works of many other designers.

Take Old Town Club as another example (certainly not RTJ, but a good example). People say it may be underrated, and it very well may be, but a quick look tells me that 6 of the 10 courses ranked ahead of it are private, big money, Fazio designs built in the last 22 years. I think that trend is seen in all states as a rule, and it directly affects work by guys like RTJ and other mid-1900's designers as well as the lesser known works by 'Golden Age' designers.

[Tom MacWood]

In the late 60s and early 70s these were his highly rated American courses:

Peachtree, Bellerive, Point O'Woods, Spyglass Hill, CC of Birmingham, Firestone (No + So), Congressional, Dunes, Hazeltine, Mauna Kea, Broadmoor, Goodyear, Pauma Valley, Royal Kaanapali, Wilmington, Timberlane, Old Warson, Greenvile, Crag Burn, Coral Ridge, Eugene and Boyne Highlands.

Are there any hidden gems among these courses? I like Firestone North.

What about his international designs, any hidden gems there?

I've played both courses at Dorado Beach and I reckon the original 18, which was split up to make two new 18s, was a gem.

[Mike_Cirba]

Tom,

Green Lakes State Park near Syracuse, NY is a very cool old RTJ Sr. course.

I'm particularly fond of the Dunes Club in SC, as well.

[Tom MacWood]

Tom, specifically Jr. or Sr?

RTJ, Sr.

[BCrosby]

Probably. 

P'tree is a very good course and still ranked. RTJ's changes to ANGC were mostly good. His new 16th there was an improvement. (Overall, RTJ was more sensitive to MacK's ideas than Maxwell was.)

RTJ's Carambola in St Croix is also quite good. He did some good courses in northern Michigan whose names escape me.

Bob

 

[Chris_Blakely]

His two courses in Northern Michigan that I know of are:

Boyne - The Heather

Treetops - Jones Course

I have always felt that his runway style tees did not get enough credit for being a creative idea for making maintance of the course easier and more cost effective.

Chris

[PThomas]

no

[Bob_Huntley]

In the late 60s and early 70s these were his highly rated American courses:

Peachtree, Bellerive, Point O'Woods, Spyglass Hill, CC of Birmingham, Firestone (No + So), Congressional, Dunes, Hazeltine, Mauna Kea, Broadmoor, Goodyear, Pauma Valley, Royal Kaanapali, Wilmington, Timberlane, Old Warson, Greenvile, Crag Burn, Coral Ridge, Eugene and Boyne Highlands.

Are there any hidden gems among these courses? I like Firestone North.

What about his international designs, any hidden gems there?

I've played both courses at Dorado Beach and I reckon the original 18, which was split up to make two new 18s, was a gem.

Tom

I've played Peach Tree, Spyglass, Mauna Kea, Pauma Valley, Old Warson and Bellerive. All of them gave me a challenging and enjoyable day of golf.
If someone among us feels that these are not worthy of playing or are deficient in some way, then I feel you must be playing in the Elysian Fields.

Bob

[Bill Brightly]

My opinion is that the works of RT Jones Sr. reflect the changing values of golf course architecture as it emerged from the dark era.

More earthmoving was available to designers and courses could be built in places previously thought ill suited to the game; golf courses became about selling housing lots, not creating soul stirring experiences.

Moreover, his era seemed to turn its' back on "sporty" courses.  Naturalism was thought of as inferior as the golf course maintenance industry began to grow exponentially.

I think Michael has hit on a really interesting point. Forget about whether or not you like RTJ courses, but think about the effect he had when so many ODG clubs decided to renovate their courses...

I bet you there a hundreds of ODG courses that were dramatically altered, not by RTJ, but by other working architects who were influenced by his style. I believe that an huge amount of ODG features were lost in the 60's and 70's by well-intentioned architects were were hired to "modernize" golf courses. So to me, when I read "modernization" in my club's minutes from 1961, I take that to mean: "make it look like the courses RTJ is building."

Am I on target?

[David Stamm]

Pauma Valley, as I've stated in the past, is a solid course. My favorite of his so far, despite it not having some key elements I look for in a great course, namely variety in the par 3's and a good blend of distances in the par 4's. If it was just a tad closer to where I live, I would probably join it.

[Dan Herrmann]

I've heard that RTJ butchered Aronimink before it was saved by Ron Prichard

[Andy Troeger]

I like Point O'Woods a lot, although some recent changes haven't helped the course. Some of those have been storm/weather related, others by their own decisions. I'd say its a bit underrated now.

[Ronald Montesano]

Chris...runway greens?  runway tees?

I don't know if any of you have played his Glen Oak (christened Ransom Oaks) or his Seven Oaks.  Each one has one screwball par five on it.  At Glen Oak it is the 18th, the worst hole man ever created.  At Seven Oaks it is the 7th.  He seemed to like to do the strangest things with water, like make a hole undriveable by running creeks across it at bizarre angles or building a lake forcing a 200 yard carry to the green's edge (with no other fairway element.)  In my estimation, this ruination of one hole cannot help but dilute the worth of the remaining holes.

I've stated in other threads that I love Crag Burn and 17 holes at Seven Oaks.  In fact, I like #2 so much at Colgate that I can forgive him for number 7.  I didn't like Heather at Boyne at all and didn't play his course at Treetops (probably a good thing.)  I've played Durand-Eastman and hope to get to Green Lakes soon.  These would be two of his earliest works.

Bill, I agree with you that what he did influenced others (Wilson, Lee, Finger, et al.) to muck up ODG courses.  I don't know what Trent did to Tillinghast's Niagara Falls Country Club, but I can guess.

Here is a quote on RTJ sr. from Wikipedia:  "...deft placement of greens and hazards that encourage a high level of strategy."
Deft?  Is that an empty adjective or what?  high level of strategy?  Oftentimes a high level of luck.

I'd have to see more before

[Tom MacWood]

In Columbus the old Winding Hollow CC, the current Champions public course, is a wonderful course. One of my favorite architects Herbert Strong built the original nine in the 20s and Jones made it into an 18-hole course in the late 40s. Its a very sporty course that reminds me of Stanley Thompson. I have a feeling his earlier courses are among his most interesting.

[Matthew Rose]

My impression of RTJ is that he is very much a product of his time. His courses seem very much in tune with a time, and a place, that being the 1950s and 60s. In that respect, I think a lot of his courses look a bit dated.

I don't necessarily dislike his courses.... the few that I have played, I liked (Dunes, Treetops, etc). Oddly enough I liked his course at Treetops and hated Fazio's, which seems at odds with the prevailing opinions of those who have been there.

If I have any criticism at all, it would probably be the formulaic aspect of it - you play an RTJ somewhere and you more or less know what you are going to get. McDonald's golf course design. That sort of thing worked really well for the era it was in, I suppose, and I'm sure there was a certain comfort and safety felt by developers in those days knowing that if they had an RTJ course at their resort, it would be successful because it was his.

I think he commands respect, at least from me, because there was a time when he was THE golf architect, end of story. But like anything else, times change and things go out of fashion.

[Mark_Rowlinson]

In Europe, Pevero and Sperone are highly regarded - I have been to neither, so I cannot comment personally.

In the UK I have a lot of time for Stockley Park, which serves its purpose well - utilising an old dump, routing the course so that other workers in the area can walk, jog or cycle safely within the course, and providing a decent player with a good test, yet without overwhelming me. Moor Allerton, I'm afraid, is very bland. There was quite a lot of character to the original courses at Celtic Manor. I believe they are now re-configured to make new layouts so that the 2010 course is confined to the low ground.

I have met players who have played Royal Rabat and raved about it. Again, I have no personal knowledge of it.