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Lester George

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Re: Is Robert Trent Jones underrated?
« Reply #25 on: July 31, 2009, 09:43:42 AM »

Yes he is underrated.

As an architect, gentleman, and pioneer of a profession.  One of the nicest men I ever met.

Lester

BCrosby

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Re: Is Robert Trent Jones underrated?
« Reply #26 on: July 31, 2009, 09:57:07 AM »
Lester -

I don't doubt that RTJ was one of the nicest men you ever met, but let's not forget that he was viscious about Dick Wilson, his chief rival. Wilson had lots of personal problems. A tragic figure in many ways. RTJ did not hesitiate to talk about those problems and did so quite publicly. For those reasons I might stop short of calling RTJ a "gentleman".

Bob 

Lester George

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Re: Is Robert Trent Jones underrated?
« Reply #27 on: July 31, 2009, 10:39:54 AM »
Bob,

Did you ever have the opportunity to meet RTJ? 

No matter, my experience was as a young architect and he had no reason to give me the time of day.  But he did, and my two encounters (one at the US Open one at Auguta National) were both very rewarding and he was a tremendous gentleman to me and I wouldn't stop short of calling him one.

Lester

Bill Brightly

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Re: Is Robert Trent Jones underrated?
« Reply #28 on: July 31, 2009, 11:23:09 AM »
I really enjoy playing golf on RTJ courses. My favorite is Wilmington CC. I think he has a really significant place in TE Paul's "Big World Theory" of golf course architecture. I think the fact that there are so many RTJ courses and others in that sytle, allow us to enjoy the contrast of what Doak, C & C and others have built.

The problem that I have is with the renovation work done in the 60's and 70's, almost always under the title of Modernization. I certainly can't blame RTJ or any other architect for that. I have come to believe that it was historically inevitable.

Here's how I picture it: Leaders of country clubs are living in a time of incredible change. New automobiles. Black and white televisions, then color televisons. Dishwashers, vacuums, washers, driers and many other appliances begin to go into every home in America. No more brooms, hand washing, no more clothes lines.

It is only natural that guys in leadership positions at golf courses would feel obligated to "Modernize" their old golf courses...and so that's what they did. And RTJ's style was the popular style, so that what we got at my home course (from William Gordon.) Add in the Augusta effect and Earth Day and a few million White Pines and Spruces...

Chris_Blakely

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Re: Is Robert Trent Jones underrated?
« Reply #29 on: July 31, 2009, 11:46:41 AM »
Chris...runway greens?  runway tees?


Yes, I fixed it and changed greens to tees.  Tees is what I meant to write!

Thanks for the double question marks above!!!! ::)

Chris

mark chalfant

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is Robert Trent Jones underrated? New
« Reply #30 on: July 31, 2009, 11:54:34 AM »
Tom,

I think some of his work is definitely underrated. Just consider some hidden gems in New York state : Rockrimmon, Bristol Harbour and Crag Burn. These are very fine courses.  Old Warson in Missouri  and Shady Oaks are also fine layouts. The ensemble of greens at Shady Oaks is among the finest Ive ever played. The routing at  this Fort Worth masterpiece is also brilliant
« Last Edit: August 02, 2009, 10:55:44 PM by mark chalfant »

Ronald Montesano

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Re: Is Robert Trent Jones underrated?
« Reply #31 on: July 31, 2009, 01:54:27 PM »
Anglebrook is the one that I sought.  I remember seeing an article about it in one of the magazines a decade ago, about it being his last great course, kinder and gentler.  Website is www.anglebrookgc.com.  Anyone familiar with it?  Looks great from above on google earth.
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

JeffTodd

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is Robert Trent Jones underrated?
« Reply #32 on: July 31, 2009, 02:16:55 PM »
I think the notion of over or underrated is difficult to discern because opinions of his work can be quite polarized. His name still carries enough perceived weight that many courses go out of their way to market their connection to him, and he still has more name recognition among rank and file golfers than many other (more respected, here) architects. So in those circles I’d say he’s quite overrated.

Among an audience like this site, the opposite is probably true. Here, he is more synonymous with banal, dictatorial, golf courses that epitomize the “dark age” of design. Personally, I’ve only played around ten of his courses and I find them to be repetitive in design, particularly around bunkering schemes, use of water (over the water approach, anyone?), and tees (of course). I’ve played holes at Lido that were essentially the same as something at Hominy Hill, which were not unlike something I saw at Port Royal. That said, a course like Port Royal is a blast to play and is a very good golf course, but how much of that is attributable to the land and setting and not the architect? The holes on the lower, flat portion are uninspired and can literally be found at his other courses all around the world.

Are courses like Hominy Hill or Lido bad courses? Not at all; Lido has its moments and Hominy Hill is pretty solid, and that is what I’ve found in most of his work. Personally, I haven’t played an RTJ course that I would consider to be bad, but I haven’t played anything other than Port Royal that I would elevate, even to the level of “very good," either.

Jon Spaulding

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Re: Is Robert Trent Jones underrated?
« Reply #33 on: July 31, 2009, 11:18:46 PM »
I was reading the thread on underrated golf courses, and I was thinking how at one time RTJ dominated the top 100 lists. At some point his courses, and the courses of his era, fell out of favor and disappeared completely from the lists.

As result are some of his best courses underrated at present? Is RTJ underrated?

Would it be reasonable to consider Oakland Hills, Olympic Lake or even ANGC as RTJ courses at this point?

I played the former a couple years ago and could not distinguish many Ross features.
of. It sure looks like an RTJ. The routing would be considered a mix, based on my limited understanding of the Ross routing.

To answer the question, I say his legacy is about right in the big picture. He did some damn good work, some lousy work.....but still a high enough slugging percentage......

Within the confines of this site....underrated.
« Last Edit: August 01, 2009, 02:39:26 AM by Jon Spaulding »
You'd make a fine little helper. What's your name?

JWinick

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is Robert Trent Jones underrated?
« Reply #34 on: August 01, 2009, 06:01:13 AM »
I think it depends what you mean by underrated.   Is RTJ, SR. underrated in the general golfing community?  Not at all.   In the GCA community, perhaps.   Honestly, I think very dimly of the architecture between WWII and Pete Dye's rise to prominence in the 80s.   RTJ, Sr. massacred so many golf courses.   His formulaic approach (4 Par 5s (2 on each side), 4 Par 3s (2 on each side), produced unispiring golf courses.

Look at the sites he had to work with!  He worked with some incredible sites (Point 'O' Woods, Mauna Kea, Spyglass) and it's hard to argue that he made the best of the site.   I recently played Point 'O' Woods and, while I enjoyed it, I wondered how much better it would be if a more capable architect had designed the course.

It's just like Nicklaus.  When you design so many courses, you're going to have some gems.   I will rarely hate a golf course and I'll almost always have a great time.   But, RTJ Sr. is way overrated in the general golfing community. 

Philippe Binette

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Re: Is Robert Trent Jones underrated?
« Reply #35 on: August 01, 2009, 08:34:22 AM »
I can't talk much about RTJones since I haven't seen one of his courses but

In Quebec, we had an architect that did most of the courseson the 60's and 70's, Howard Watson. He learned with Thompson and most of his routing are solid, not necessarily pure genius but solid... his greens are pretty good. Each time I go at one of his courses I'm like:

Man if we could change the bunkering style but more importantly the positionning (instead of the bunker at 250, and one on each side of the green) it would be a really good golf course.

Could it be the same for RTJ. ???