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Eric Smith

  • Karma: +0/-0
What would a Doak course look like...
« on: July 29, 2009, 09:17:36 AM »
in the low country?

I'm disappointed with the golf course I played yesterday.  Fantastic conditions...nobody there... the coldest beer; yet little offered in the way of design to raise my heart rate above what it was floating in the pool a few hours earlier.

I do not wish to name the course because it looks like so many others I've played around here, by many different designers, it would be unfair to single it out.

I did wonder aloud yesterday what Tom Doak could have done with the property.  

The best courses around Hilton Head and Savannah have the marsh, river or ocean to sort of balance out the trek through the flat forests.

When limited to flat pine forests it must be difficult to pull off a memorable design.

It would be interesting to see a Renaissance course designed on such a canvas and if the design delivered the goods, to learn why that is so.



Eric

Jason Topp

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What would a Doak course look like...
« Reply #1 on: July 29, 2009, 09:19:35 AM »
Eric:

The Rawls Course at Texas Tech was designed on a flat piece of ground.  That is probably your best indicator.

Wade Whitehead

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What would a Doak course look like...
« Reply #2 on: July 29, 2009, 09:27:40 AM »
I just played Heathland yesterday.  It's an incredible layout with some fantastic holes.  It must have been flat and wooded before construction and it built on terrain similar to low country ground.

WW

Eric Smith

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What would a Doak course look like...
« Reply #3 on: July 29, 2009, 09:36:10 AM »
Jason & WW,

I'm going with the assumption that the property (especially those on the island) could not be cleared free of trees.  For the most part, tree lined playing corridors would be a part of the canvas.

Also, Heathland is one of my very favorites and playing it in 1991 opened this small town country boy's eyes to the world of golf architecture.

Anthony Gray

Re: What would a Doak course look like...
« Reply #4 on: July 29, 2009, 09:44:23 AM »


  Can minimalism work on flat uninspired land?

  Anthony


Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: What would a Doak course look like...
« Reply #5 on: July 29, 2009, 09:57:23 AM »
Eric:

We built a course in the Tidewater area of Virginia about 12 years ago, called Riverfront.  The highest elevation on the property is 20 feet above sea level, and we didn't cut or fill more than about four feet, apart from digging an irrigation pond.  But it's got a great set of greens and bunkers.

Unfortunately, it is now surrounded by a large built-out development ... and because the holes were mostly built in soybean fields adjacent to the marsh, there was very little mature vegetation to soften the visual impact of the homes.  Landscaping will eventually help, but that takes a long time.  Still, tee to green, it's a pretty good indication of what we could build for a Lowcountry course ... unless I decided to try something different.

Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What would a Doak course look like...
« Reply #6 on: July 29, 2009, 09:58:27 AM »
Anthony, What's your definition of minimalism?
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Anthony Gray

Re: What would a Doak course look like...
« Reply #7 on: July 29, 2009, 10:00:43 AM »
Anthony, What's your definition of minimalism?

  Adam,

  In general, limited earth moving and creation of land forms.

  Anthony


Donnie Beck

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What would a Doak course look like...
« Reply #8 on: July 29, 2009, 10:09:54 AM »


  Can minimalism work on flat uninspired land?

  Anthony



Of course...  Garden City is a perfect example.  There is nothing at all inspiring about that property yet it one of favorite places to play.

David Mulle

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What would a Doak course look like...
« Reply #9 on: July 29, 2009, 10:14:43 AM »


  Can minimalism work on flat uninspired land?

  Anthony




I think Talking Stick North is a great example of minimalism producing a fun, challenging course on very flat land.  To the untrained eye it certainly appeared that very little land was moved but they relied on dry washes, some very well placed bunkers and some very cool angles to create a course that gives you lots of options.

Gary Slatter

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What would a Doak course look like...
« Reply #10 on: July 29, 2009, 10:16:15 AM »


  Can minimalism work on flat uninspired land?

  Anthony


Yes, but you have to move a lot of dirt!
Gary Slatter
gary.slatter@raffles.com

ChipRoyce

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What would a Doak course look like...
« Reply #11 on: July 29, 2009, 10:18:14 AM »
Anthony, What's your definition of minimalism?

  Adam,

  In general, limited earth moving and creation of land forms.

  Anthony



Anthony;
I'd suggest... yes. Will be difficult to achieve without moving a lot of dirt, esp. around green sites, But my vision would require more width than usual, creativity in the routing for challenging landing areas, neat greens and surrounds, and significant restraint to not use trees to restrict lines of play into greens/fairways.

Mark Pritchett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What would a Doak course look like...
« Reply #12 on: July 29, 2009, 10:33:58 AM »
Chechessee Creek is a good example to me of a course on flat land that produced an interesting and thoughtful design.

Anthony Gray

Re: What would a Doak course look like...
« Reply #13 on: July 29, 2009, 10:37:56 AM »


  Can minimalism work on flat uninspired land?

  Anthony



Of course...  Garden City is a perfect example.  There is nothing at all inspiring about that property yet it one of favorite places to play.

  Donnie,

  What did they to to overcome the lak interest in the land?

  Thanks

  Anthony


Eric Smith

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What would a Doak course look like...
« Reply #14 on: July 29, 2009, 11:20:16 AM »
Chechessee Creek is a good example to me of a course on flat land that produced an interesting and thoughtful design.

Ahh, but there are definitely some beautiful long marsh views to go along with the trek through the trees.  ;)

No doubt though, Chechessee Creek, from pictures alone, has sex appeal.  Good call Mark.




Tom Doak:

Thanks for your reply.  Riverfront looks more open (even with houses) then say a Shipyard GC.  I am probably limiting the discussion, but my question/comment was meant to be more of a site specific focus (just inland forest, no marsh/river/ocean views to speak of.)

The one I played and mentioned in my opening post was trees left, right, long everywhere. 

Eric




« Last Edit: July 29, 2009, 11:29:57 AM by Eric Smith »

Mark Pritchett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What would a Doak course look like...
« Reply #15 on: July 29, 2009, 11:50:57 AM »
I still love the comment where someone said they "loved Chechessee Creek not because of what the architects did, but because of what the architects didn't do".

Eric Smith

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What would a Doak course look like...
« Reply #16 on: July 29, 2009, 03:25:55 PM »


The best courses around Hilton Head and Savannah have the marsh, river or ocean to sort of balance out the trek through the flat forests.

When limited to flat pine forests it must be difficult to pull off a memorable design.



I just noticed Ran's post for the Lowcountry trip this fall. 

The all-star course line-up is:

1. May River
2. Old Tabby Links
3. Harbour Town
4. Chechessee Creek

It is interesting to note that all four courses visit either the ocean, the marshes or the rivers of the lowcountry at some point in their respective routings. (Which of course makes perfect sense, if given the opportunity to do so.)  So it goes, the better properties down here are going to have better access to the water (and/or views of it).

Can it be done around here without it?  I would love to see one where somebody has pulled it off.



Kenny Baer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What would a Doak course look like...
« Reply #17 on: July 29, 2009, 03:33:49 PM »
I still love the comment where someone said they "loved Chechessee Creek not because of what the architects did, but because of what the architects didn't do".

I probably said that.

Donnie Beck

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What would a Doak course look like...
« Reply #18 on: July 29, 2009, 03:52:03 PM »


  Can minimalism work on flat uninspired land?

  Anthony



Of course...  Garden City is a perfect example.  There is nothing at all inspiring about that property yet it one of favorite places to play.

  Donnie,

  What did they to to overcome the lak interest in the land?

  Thanks

  Anthony



Anthony,

Garden City is very special. As soon as you set foot on the property you feel you have taken a step back in time. It has a look and feel I have never seen in another golf course. The greens seem as extensions of the fairways with little or no movement of earth during construction. The routing is brilliant with no holes running in the same direction. Once you are out on the course it is hard to believe you are only 30 or so minutes from NYC. I love the use of cross bunkering to create preferred angles. I am not sure of the extent of Doak's work (I know he was there back in the 90’s) maybe someone more knowledgeable can comment but whatever the case the bunkers seemed to fit perfectly. When you get a chance take a look at Ran's review and as impressive as the review is it does not do the course justice. It is much better in person.

Michael Dugger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What would a Doak course look like...
« Reply #19 on: July 29, 2009, 03:56:28 PM »
Anthony,

Perhaps a refresher is in order.

From the Renaissance website....

"For the most part, minimalism is just good common sense, a refusal to let design ideas out of thin air outweigh the realities of the site. Instead of reshaping a severe slope, we try to figure out how to use it to make a golf hole interesting. If it’s just too severe, we’ll try a sequence of holes which avoids it entirely. The bulldozer is our third and last option.

This philosophy of design doesn’t mean we can’t work with less-than-perfect properties. On the contrary, when you are dealing with a severely hilly and rocky site like Stone Eagle, or a dead flat site like Texas Tech, the ability to figure out how to make good golf holes while moving less earth is more important than ever.

We have been blessed to work on some extraordinary sites, and we‘ve established what results we can achieve with them. By the same token, sites like Beechtree and Riverfront might have been dismissed by other designers as dull properties, and we managed to find interest in them without moving any more earth on the fairways than we did at Pacific Dunes. Good detail work goes a long way.

We do understand how to move earth when the need arises, whether it’s to add interest to a flat site or to soften a steep one. In fact, you have to be really good at moving earth to conceal what you’ve done, when the surrounding landscape is untouched. Any edge of disturbance, be it a clearing line or a major earthwork, is strenuously examined and finessed until it is blurred beyond recognition. This is the key to producing a new course that looks like it’s been there for 75 years."
What does it matter if the poor player can putt all the way from tee to green, provided that he has to zigzag so frequently that he takes six or seven putts to reach it?     --Alistair Mackenzie--

Peter Pallotta

Re: What would a Doak course look like...
« Reply #20 on: July 29, 2009, 05:43:48 PM »
Just random thoughts -- that the dsitinction between naturalism and minimalism is real, and will come to the fore when the next round of courses are being designed and built; and, for some reason, Fowler at Walton Heath and Emmet at Garden City.

Peter

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: What would a Doak course look like...
« Reply #21 on: July 29, 2009, 07:08:01 PM »
Peter:  I am not even sure which side of the naturalism vs. minimalism debate I fall on.

But I agree with the comparison of Walton Heath and Garden City, which I've made before myself.

David Stamm

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What would a Doak course look like...
« Reply #22 on: July 29, 2009, 07:29:45 PM »


  Can minimalism work on flat uninspired land?

  Anthony



Of course...  Garden City is a perfect example.  There is nothing at all inspiring about that property yet it one of favorite places to play.

Donnie, I agree. This course came to mind when I read that question. GCGC is one of my favorites.
"The object of golf architecture is to give an intelligent purpose to the striking of a golf ball."- Max Behr

Ronald Montesano

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What would a Doak course look like...
« Reply #23 on: July 29, 2009, 07:54:25 PM »
Charlotte Golf Links is another indicator...early in the career, hands tied by certain factors, still an interesting course.
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

Ronald Montesano

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What would a Doak course look like...
« Reply #24 on: July 29, 2009, 07:55:46 PM »
What kind of land was Mike Strantz given at Bull's Bay?  That's a low country build, correct?
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!