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Ran Morrissett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Riviera - the ultimate design?
« on: May 07, 2002, 07:21:46 PM »
MacKenzie started with something very special at Cypress Point and turned in a design the equal to its stunning setting. Same for Macdonald at National and Crump at Pine Valley.

However, in terms of starting with little and ending up with a world class course, is Thomas's efforts at Riviera perhaps the finest of all-time?

Other contenders might be Tillinghast at Winged Foot West and Wilson at Merion and maybe even MacKenzie at Kingston Heath and/or Ross at No. 2.

However, for my money, Riviera stands above even those four designs, in large part thanks to its greater strategic variety.

I can't help but wonder if Riviera is the finest example of the worth that an architect can bring to a project? Thomas's original design is so good  :o,  is the famous 18th even in the top half of its holes?!

Cheers,
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Paul Richards

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Riviera - the ultimate design?
« Reply #1 on: May 07, 2002, 08:09:43 PM »
Ran:

18 is definately in the top 1/2 of Riviera's holes.  Top 3, IMHO.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

brad_miller

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Riviera - the ultimate design?
« Reply #2 on: May 07, 2002, 09:20:40 PM »
#'s 4, 10 and 15 are clearly IMO better, truly world class and stunning, add 13 to that without the added portion of the green and the wash visually brought back into play. Top half ok, top 3 NO!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Riviera - the ultimate design?
« Reply #3 on: May 07, 2002, 09:29:06 PM »
Ran, not sure why you are implying that the Los Angeles area's golf terrain and its potential for great design is not among the best.  The hills, canyons and barrancas seem to be wonderfully conducive to wonderful design.  LACC, Riviera, Bel Air, Lakewood, even up the coast line to Ojai and Montecito, great courses have been built on that terrain.  George Thomas had a great piece of land upon which to build Riviera, as well as his other LA greats.  I love walking out of the Bel Air tunnels and walking that bridge to the 10th -- once saw Dean Martin hitting 2-iron practice balls across the canyon next to the 10th tee, 1962 I guess.  Haven't had the thrill of playing Riviera but suspect the natural terrain there was most supportive of Thomas' great design.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

brad_miller

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Riviera - the ultimate design?
« Reply #4 on: May 07, 2002, 09:34:34 PM »
Ran named Dr Mac as the best archie of all time, but if only 3 courses where used and the oringinal strategies where in place, Thomas sure gives Mac a run for the $$$!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Lynn Shackelford

Re: Riviera - the ultimate design?
« Reply #5 on: May 07, 2002, 09:37:33 PM »
8) Bill

Actually, Riviera was very costly to build as truckloads of dirt were imported from the San Fernando Valley.  Thomas must have felt the land was not suitable as it was.  I think Crenshaw calls it "the best manmade course."

World class?
15th green
10th hole
Tee shot on 18th
Strategy of the tee ball on 4
6th hole
routing which includes options of playing 3-6 holes in many different combinations.  What old Scotch pro Willie Hunter called "Whiskey routs."
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Ran Morrissett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Riviera - the ultimate design?
« Reply #6 on: May 07, 2002, 09:39:56 PM »
Bill, In the case of Riviera, Thomas had to be talked into accepting the project, so poor was the soil and his initial impressions of the site.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Riviera - the ultimate design?
« Reply #7 on: May 07, 2002, 09:43:34 PM »
Ran - but he did have the use of the hill where the clubhouse is sited, plus the washes, barrancas, etc.  Maybe great architecture using a less than great site.
Do you feel the same about Bel Air and LA North?  Were those better natural sites?  He certainly created exciting and challenging courses out of those sites!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

brad_miller

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Riviera - the ultimate design?
« Reply #8 on: May 07, 2002, 10:15:41 PM »
Lynn, Ben hasn't played Shadow Creek? :)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tommy_Naccarato

Re: Riviera - the ultimate design?
« Reply #9 on: May 07, 2002, 10:29:24 PM »
If I haven't said it once, I know I have had to say it fifty times--Riviera is a museum for golf architecture principles. (what a second...It was Geoff Shackelford that has wrote this!!!:) )

Tonight, in talking to Mike Cirba and Geoff Childs, in making sure of their safe return home, their enthusiasm for SoCal's best design was quite startling. I respect their opinions quite admirably. There was much talk tonight about the 14th. Is it a weak hole? Absolutely not! In fact, I'm totally enamored with the width of that green and how conducive it is to three-putting. lest we not forget that even Brian Curley (with an assist by Fred Couples) has recreated this hole at the Palms in La Quinta. The only thing is that it is 1/3rd the size! (And even less dramatic.)

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:05 PM by -1 »

Simon_H

Re: Riviera - the ultimate design?
« Reply #10 on: May 08, 2002, 12:01:35 AM »
Ran

Kingston Heath was actually designed by Mr Dan Soutar in 1925.  MacKenzie redid all the bunkering when he came out to Aust in 1927/28.

Simon Hiscock
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Chris Kane

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Riviera - the ultimate design?
« Reply #11 on: May 08, 2002, 12:08:42 AM »
Simon,

My understanding is that Soutar did the routing in 1925, and left it devoid of bunkers.  MacKenzie then added bunkering in 1927, and designed a new 15th hole, which had previously been a short 4 to a green some 50yds further on.

The intention was always for a world-class architect to do the bunkering.

A very subtle difference, but is this the case?

Kingston Heath without bunkers would be an interesting prospect!  Any holes where you think no bunkers would make it an equal or superior hole to the current arrangement?  

There seems to be a tendency to credit MacKenzie with everything he saw while in Australia + New Zealand...and we can understand why!  For example, I've heard people credit him with Yarra Yarra (which he undoubtably influenced), Flinders, and everything at Vic (although it is generally acknowledged that he must have had some input there).

I even read on the net somewhere of "Mackenzie's brilliant design at Huntindale" (despite the great man being about seven yrs before the course opened!).
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:05 PM by -1 »

TEPaul

Re: Riviera - the ultimate design?
« Reply #12 on: May 08, 2002, 05:14:53 AM »
In my experience at Riviera Pat Mucci is certainly right--I had to play it to comment on the some of what is being talked about here---I didn't play it. I started a 6am and walked very slowly from #1 to #18 looking at every single thing, taking ever little detail in and also the overall aura of the course, and fortunately talking to the super as I progressed along.

So my take on Riviera would be not the same as those who know it well--but it was very unusual and very impressive for me nonetheless doing what I did.

I could certainly see the strategic possibilities and the little nuances everywhere. But what really struck me and impressed me was the canyon site, which should have created almost a feeling of claustrophobia for someone like me from the East who is not used to that. But it didn't--it created in that way no more than a feeling of coziness (I could have touched the lady in her yard from #6 tee, I felt).

But one would think even a feeling of coziness on a golf course would make the golfer feel somewhat restricted in both feeling and actually hitting his golf shots. The fact that it felt quite open and expansive that way in such a close coupled routing is what impressed me. It has to be an illusion, a brilliant deception on Thomas's part--and I just love all things in arhictecture that create visual or aura deception!

But I would have gone all the way to LA just to see #10 in person, and it did not disappoint. For a golf archtiectural addict there are two short par 4s that fascinated me the most from an architectural perspective--Cypress's #9 and Riviera's #10. They are at either end of the spectrum in the context of an architectural "workup".

#9 Cypress for those who have really studied the pre and post construction photos is an absolutely natural golf hole. Everything that's there was there before construction--Mackenzie just gently layed on the tee, fairway and green and that was it. What was naturally there before is fascinating in how he used it!

Riviera's #10 had to be a completely blank canvas originally--offering the architect almost nothing to use naturally, except a tiny bit of elevation change. What he did with it in both design and construction is about as good as it can get!

Both ends of the architectural spectrum--one completely found, the other completely made. I might prefer #9 Cypress to look at, but to play I definitely would prefer Riviera's #10!

And I do agree with those that say Riviera is a world class architectural labratory!  As such it's hard to see people mess with it.

There's one other thing about Thomas that fascinates me more than any other architect. That was his penchant to create mini-loops and "courses within a course" (that Lynn Shackelford alluded to above). It's understandable that he would have tried to do something like that on a small site and a close coupled routing (his other LA courses too) but ironically in an architectural sense that's the most difficult canvas to do it on!

Thomas may have been the most brilliant or the most adventurous architect of them all, although some of his ideas did not catch on or did not really last. He seems to me to be the most interesting architectural theoretician of all!

At least one of his unique ideas--"courses within a course" should be reanalyzed today seriously!

If that could be done (perhaps necessarily on a larger scale site) in what I think of as a "Rohrshach" presentation where the courses within a course would only actually appear to the golfer as only one when he was playing any one of them (the others would deceptively and totally fade from view, if you know what I mean), that to me might be the ultimate design in one particular way. To do it really well, I think, would take tremendous talent in imagination, design and construction ability!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

GeoffreyC

Re: Riviera - the ultimate design?
« Reply #13 on: May 08, 2002, 08:56:06 AM »
I don't have much time for a reply that could be as long as a book if I let it all out.

Riviera is pretty darn close to an ultimate design.  Tom Paul talked about a canyon site that should have been claustrophobic but I was struck with just how massive the features on the golf course really are. Riviera is a BIG golf course with impressive vistas across the property (especially the front nine and #10.  I never expected bunkering that is as deep and even more massive in size then Bethpage Black. How many acres is the golf course built on?

I agree with all of the comments on individual holes.  #4 is as good a par 3 as it gets.  I loved the use of the hillside and the elevation changes on #5.  #9 is a hole with many options due to the bunkering placement.  #13 is almost Raynor like with the sharp dropoff left of the green and along the approoach to the green.   #14 might be the weakest hole on the course but as Tommy said, it's still a really strong hole.  #15 is world class, especially around the greensite with the front right greenside bunker and amazing complex green contours.  I loved the Sunday right pin placement.  Finally, I was struck by just how big and how much elevation change there is on the hillside on #18 that you must drive over. TV and pictures could never capture that element.  Seeing Riviera actually showed me how limited pictures of a site are if you want to understand the reality of a property and a golf course built on it.

Finally, I have to say that it's a shame that Riviera is being altered.  Holes #7 and 8 stick out like a sore thumb and hte bunkers are an abomination.  Tommy was absolutely correct in his assessment of what's going on. The baranca's are playable when it should not be possible to recover except in odd lucky circumstances.  All that needs to be done is to plant some nice flower beds down there.  Contrast this with LACC where the baranca's are indeed hazards. However, Riviera should be mentioned among the truly elite designs in all of golf. It has it all.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Bob_Huntley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Riviera - the ultimate design?
« Reply #14 on: May 08, 2002, 09:31:13 AM »
TEP:

Like you I think Riviera is a masterpice. I cannot think of place on the course where one could be hitting a shot that could be considered awkward. Going a bit east, I think of No. 8 at LACC and that word immediately comes to mind.  

CP's 9th was there from the begining, Riviera's 10th was created out of a piece of ground that could have been a football field. I believe the 5th hole is probably the most under-rated hole on the course.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Ed_Baker

Re: Riviera - the ultimate design?
« Reply #15 on: May 08, 2002, 11:43:05 AM »
Nonarchitectural questions:

What is the history of Riviera,who owned (founded) the club and hired Thomas?

Was Riviera ever a member owned equity club?

How did it become the property of the present owners?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Lynn_Shackelford

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Riviera - the ultimate design?
« Reply #16 on: May 08, 2002, 09:39:39 PM »
;)Ed Baker
You need to buy a copy of Riviera, The Definitive History, it is well written.

Brad
 ;D I don't know if Ben has ever played Shadow Creek, my bet would be that he has not.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
It must be kept in mind that the elusive charm of the game suffers as soon as any successful method of standardization is allowed to creep in.  A golf course should never pretend to be, nor is intended to be, an infallible tribunal.
               Tom Simpson

Kevin Fraser

Re: Riviera - the ultimate design?
« Reply #17 on: May 08, 2002, 09:55:45 PM »
Where can copies of "Riviera, The Definitive History" be found for sale?  Is there someone at the club to contact in order to purchase one?  I am very interested in finding this book and any leads would be appreciated.

Thank you
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

"West Coast" Puffy Thomas

Re: Riviera - the ultimate design?
« Reply #18 on: May 09, 2002, 02:29:10 PM »
Geoffrey C;

What's the dillyo with your problems with the restoration on 7 & 8?

Doncha know that we're just keepin it real, out in the field, with some nice big puffy restoration bunkers, just like you east coasters have all been doing??  It costs some real bling-bling to pull those suckers together, what with diesel costs these days.

So chill dude.  We're just trying to emulate the best of the best in your 'hood.    

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

GeoffreyC

Re: Riviera - the ultimate design?
« Reply #19 on: May 09, 2002, 03:06:52 PM »
Puffy my main man- I'll post a couple of pictures later this evening and you can tell us which you like better, and which was done by your brother George.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TEPaul

Re: Riviera - the ultimate design?
« Reply #20 on: May 09, 2002, 03:16:13 PM »
"West Coast" Puffy Thomas!

I've never been too concerned about anonymous posting but would you mind revealing your true identity because you're the greatest?

Do you do golf architectural rap music like our own Philadelpia "Puffy" Wilson?

Maybe your real name is "West Coast" Puffy Thomas. Just like "Puffy" Wilson is reputedly the il, ille, illegit...well you know what I mean, son of Hughie and an upstairs nanny in the Wilson household, maybe the same is true of your mom and Captain Geo.

Let me do some research into who all those hybrid roses of George's were named after (the same ones Mrs Thomas ripped out and threw away following Geo's passing) and I may be able to run down which one was named after your mama.

It's just amazing some of the extraordinary things us really good golf architectural research addicts can come up with!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

"West Coast" Puffy Thomas

Re: Riviera - the ultimate design?
« Reply #21 on: May 09, 2002, 03:30:26 PM »
TEPaul,

Not sure if this helps, but my momma gave me the Christian name of Gorge B (for Barranca) Thomas.

By the by...I saw that other post about you rappin too much on here.  All I can say is, "word up" bro..
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TEPaul

Re: Riviera - the ultimate design?
« Reply #22 on: May 09, 2002, 03:44:49 PM »
"West Coast" Puffy;

Your momma gave you the Christian name Gorge? What's that all about? Do you think your momma was maybe some Finnish beauty? Or was that a mispelling? If it was did you mean your Christian name is Jorge? That could really help me when I research through all the names of The Captain's hybrid roses.

You know, I could just throw out the Prudences and the Trixies and concentrate on the Conchitas and the Consuellas.

I'd like to go on but my new brevity's got my tongue...I mean fingertips...
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

"West Coast" Puffy Wilson

Re: Riviera - the ultimate design?
« Reply #23 on: May 09, 2002, 04:55:05 PM »
TEPaul;

My mammy told me we didn't have enough money to buy the "e".

Just chill for now, and I'll be back to lay the whole rap on you later.  

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TEPaul

Re: Riviera - the ultimate design?
« Reply #24 on: May 09, 2002, 05:40:20 PM »
"West Coast" Puffy:

I know you're parental lines are confusing to you, but really, this is going too far! You're "West Coast" Puffy Thomas not "West Coast" Puffy Wilson!

"Puffy" Wilson lives here in Philly.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »