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Phil_the_Author

Re: The importance in understanding PERSPECTIVE in researching golf...
« Reply #50 on: July 31, 2009, 10:03:51 AM »
Tom asked,

"In regards to Barker, correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't it reported in November 1910 that Merion had seccured him to design their new course? Do you know of any other similar reports?"

First of all, I am BEGGING everyone NOT to turn this into another Merion argument. That means EVERYONE!

That said, as you asked Tom, allow me to correct you because you ARE wrong. MERION NEVER secured Barker to design their new course. I believe he was hired by Connell directly, and only to provide a routing. Is there a signed contract floating out there from Merion with Barker's signature on it?

Also, correct me if I am wrong on this, but the "Philadelphia School" refers to a time and place bringing about a unique group of men rather than simply where some men came from or worked.


Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The importance in understanding PERSPECTIVE in researching golf...
« Reply #51 on: July 31, 2009, 12:46:11 PM »
Phil
We've gone over this many times before. You are thinking of the June 1910 report Barker produced. The MCC minutes claimed Connell secured him and Griscom secured M&W. Numerous newspaper reports said that Lloyd secured both of them. M&W's report is addressed to Lloyd; Barker's to "Dear Sir."

I was referring to a later newspaper report. It was reported on Nov. 24, 1910 in the Philadelphia Press that Barker had been secured and would be laying out the new course.

Could you please tell me where I can find a definition of the Philadelphia School, how one qualified to be included and who were its members? Do you know the history of term Philadelphia School?

Phil_the_Author

Re: The importance in understanding PERSPECTIVE in researching golf...
« Reply #52 on: July 31, 2009, 12:58:42 PM »
There is no actual definable "Philadelphia School" as you know. It was a description of men with a similar background of time, place and acquaintance who went on to design many of the great courses in America during the "Golden Age." It is a term that was coined many years AFTER they worked and was never used by them or about them during their time...

There is no "qualifying" other than how people many years later viewed work done by a particular person who was associated with others from the Philadelphia area during that time and place...

As regards the 11/24/1910 newspaper article. I've never seen it (I assume it is in the Merion thread) as I have not completely followed evrything on the thread; can you either repost it or let me know where it is on there?
« Last Edit: July 31, 2009, 01:04:05 PM by Philip Young »

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The importance in understanding PERSPECTIVE in researching golf...
« Reply #53 on: July 31, 2009, 01:02:00 PM »
Tom asked,

"In regards to Barker, correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't it reported in November 1910 that Merion had seccured him to design their new course? Do you know of any other similar reports?"

First of all, I am BEGGING everyone NOT to turn this into another Merion argument. That means EVERYONE!

That said, as you asked Tom, allow me to correct you because you ARE wrong. MERION NEVER secured Barker to design their new course. I believe he was hired by Connell directly, and only to provide a routing. Is there a signed contract floating out there from Merion with Barker's signature on it?

Also, correct me if I am wrong on this, but the "Philadelphia School" refers to a time and place bringing about a unique group of men rather than simply where some men came from or worked.



Phillip,

I don't get it.  TEPaul has been baiting and needling and slipping in snide remarks from the first response to this thread, and fortunately no one has taken the bait.  Tom Macwood posts factual information and asks a simple question, and that is what sets you off to admonish us not to turn this into another Merion debate?    Your warning to "everyone" is insulting to the those of us who have been trying to have a civil conversation, including TomM who simply stated a fact and asked a question.  At least before your post, the only threat to the civility was, as usual, TEPaul and his snide remarks.    Perhaps you could better refine your admonishments in the future?

Regarding your comments  on Barker, you pronounce unequivocally to Tom, ". . . you ARE wrong.  MERION NEVER secured Barker to design their new course."    I don't believe you are in a position to pronounce Tom MacWood wrong, at least not unless you have some sort of time portal and access to what was going on with the Site Committee.    The FACT is, Barker was reported to have been hired by Merion to design the course.  Now whether that report is accurate or not I am not certain, and dare I say that you are not certain either.   But the report that Barker was hired by Merion to design the course no doubt raises the possibility that Barker was hired by Merion to design the course.   So your unequivocal pronouncements on an what is at least an open question are too much, and not conducive to a civil discussion.

I for one would like to hear an answer to TomM's question.    Is TEPaul aware of any other similar reports?  

You also indicate that you would like to see a "signed contract" as proof.   First even if their was a signed contract, it would likely be with the MCC documents, and it is a bit much to require TomM to produce them, since they are currently being hidden from TomM.   Second, as you should know, in historical research we don't always get perfect information and have to make due with what we can find.   Demands for a certain type of evidence over others are counterproductive and display a narrow mindedness often indicative of preconceptions as to the facts (such as you display with your unequivocal pronouncement above.)   Newspaper accounts are far from perfect, but they are often all we have to go on, and they oftentimes lead to other valuable revelations.  
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The importance in understanding PERSPECTIVE in researching golf...
« Reply #54 on: July 31, 2009, 01:18:08 PM »
David,

I saw your post and I just have a different PERSPECTIVE than you, Tom Paul, Mike Cirba and Tom MacWood as none of you are from Philadelphia.

I agree, but would suggest that your perspective is a broad one looking back generally from modern times, but then drawing specific conclusions that inactuality may or may not fit in with your general and distant observations.    I am starting at the micro level of trying to see it through the eyes of those actually there, to figure out what actually happened, whether or not if fits in with some overarching notion of what it is, generally, to be a Philadelphian.   

Might I suggest that your core belief belief about what it is to be from Philadelphia has more to do with how you and Philadelphians view what happened at Merion than it does with what actually happened?   In other words, while Hugh Wilson and Richard Francis (a Harvard trained New Yorker (or NY area) constructing buildings for a New York construction company in Philadelphia) might not really embody the stereotypical Philadelphian you portray, the way they have been understood over the years certainly does.
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Phil_the_Author

Re: The importance in understanding PERSPECTIVE in researching golf...
« Reply #55 on: July 31, 2009, 01:41:15 PM »
David,

Let me clear this up immediately. The reason that I said, "First of all, I am BEGGING everyone NOT to turn this into another Merion argument. That means EVERYONE!" was NOT to ADMONISH TOM MACWOOD! Absolutely not! It was because I was concerned that REPLIES to what Tom had posted might be argumentative and/or insulting and wanted to see if it could be stopped before it might begin.

That was all. HONEST! It was innocent of motive other than that. Tom, if you took what I stated as an admonishment directly aimed at you, I apologize. It wasn't meant as such.

David, Believe it or not I am glad that you commented, “Regarding your comments on Barker, you pronounce unequivocally to Tom, ". . . you ARE wrong.  MERION NEVER secured Barker to design their new course."    I don't believe you are in a position to pronounce Tom MacWood wrong, at least not unless you have some sort of time portal and access to what was going on with the Site Committee.    The FACT is Barker was reported to have been hired by Merion to design the course.  Now whether that report is accurate or not I am not certain, and dare I say that you are not certain either.   But the report that Barker was hired by Merion to design the course no doubt raises the possibility that Barker was hired by Merion to design the course.   So your unequivocal pronouncements on an what is at least an open question are too much, and not conducive to a civil discussion.”

I was hoping that Tom would refer to the article in specific which is why I asked him to repost it or show us where it is if possible. The reason is because of the TRUTH in what you stated, “So your unequivocal pronouncements on an what is at least an open question are too much, and not conducive to a civil discussion...”

Actually, that was to be the beginnings of what I hoped would be a civil discussion and let me explain how and why I say that. Too often we only view things from our own PERSONAL PERSPECTIVES. This is something that a historian MUST avoid doing. In this case the personal perspective is one of INTERPRETATION.

Just as you criticize me for making an “unequivocal pronouncement” on an “open question” you too should criticize Tom Macwood for doing the same thing, for didn’t we both do just that but with different conclusions?

I read what is available to me and draw a conclusion. Since there isn’t any black and white evidence, e.g. – a signed contract, that we are aware of, I say that I don’t believe that he was HIRED BY MERION. Tom, based upon the same information available to him that is to me, believes that he WAS. You, with the same information that is available to Tom & I, believe that he MIGHT HAVE BEEN.

Those are three distinctly different INTERPRETIVE CONCLUSIONS based upon a single body of evidence. They are arrived at primarily as a result of different approaches to the facts and information we have looked at. For example, my approach is heavily waited toward believing what the club has officially stated in the past to be its history. As a result, the burden of proof, IN MY OPINION, to overturn that accepted historical account needs to be quite substantial. IN YOUR and TOM’S OPINIONS, you are willing to accepted a lower threshold of burden of proof to reach the conclusions that you have.

The fact is that all three of us have reached interpretive conclusions that have equal merit and are equally criticizable. Part of that is because we have viewed history through our own INDIVIDUAL PERSPECTIVES of how to go about approaching a particular body of research information and facts.

Part of the reason for my posting this topic is to discuss the importance of PERSONAL INTERPRETATIONS in how the history of the game has been recorded. This is quite important as the Merion “discussions” prove. We have all looked at things written about Merion and inserted what WE believe either the motives behind and/or meanings of what was written were.

Future generations of those who love golf will look back on writers and historians of our day and debate matters in the exact same way and so those who write or record the history must be VERY aware and CAREFUL to NOT accentuate their own beliefs of what MAY have happened as fact over what DID happen as fact.

So, believe it or not, I responded to Tom for that very reason in hopes that he would specifically refer to the article as “absolute proof” so that we could discuss, NOT THE MERITS OF HIS CONCLUSION, but the PROCESS by which he came to it in comparison to how others might…



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