Desmond Tolhurst's account

[Jeff_Brauer]

TMac,

Good question.  All I really know is that the City of Dallas has ads touting the success of its students in critical areas, mostly to counteract the notion that its inner city schools provide inferior educmacation.  I actually believe that Ohio in general has good schools, so they probably don't advertise like Dallas does.

Its just that your critical thinking isn't always a good reflection of that.  Or, more accurately, your ability to ask us inane questions is not a good reflection of that.  You might think its pithy, (and sometimes it is) but if I am in just the wrong mood, or you ask too many in a row, they come off as more annoying than anything.

This morning, its a combination of both factors that set me off..........And, as I type this, I see you ask another one!  Please reread the Francis account, rather than, or at least before, asking us.  While he may not have used the word "stuck" he implied that the last five holes were a bit of a problem.  Again, geez.   Maybe its not the Ohio schools we should blame....but I hear Ginko Biloba is good for memory loss!

TePaul,

I know we all process info different ways.  As a map guy, I chuckle a bit every time you suggest it just can't be assessed off of maps and go out to see for yourself!

[TEPaul]

"Did Francis say when they were stuck?"



Jeeesus, MacWood, please try to keep up here. You may be a couple of years behind this discussion. If Francis had actually said when they got stuck on those last five holes and when he biked over to Lloyd's house in the middle of the night we would've been having this discussion and argument for the last year and a half, would we?

Well, belay that. If Francis actually said in that 1950 article that he biked over to Lloyd's house in the middle of the night in the beginning of April 1911 I suspect you and Moriarty would still find some way to deny it or rationalize it away as unimportant!

But Francis did say something in that article that is a pretty clear indication of when that bike ride in the middle of the night pretty much had to have been AFTER in time.

Do you think there is any possibility you might read his article again and pick up what he said that indicates THAT??  

[TEPaul]

"Tom,

That's not how Bryan came up with that estimate, actually.

He overlaid the existing course onto the Land Plan and then estimated the acreage puts and gets along and above Golf House Road, and figured if today's course measures x acres, that there were about 4 more acres of puts than gets."




Mike:

I certainly mean no disrespect to Bryan Izatt and his measuring abilities, and I'm afraid he may've taken what I said about that as some disrepect a year or so ago. I just don't really understand how that can be done all that accurately off a photograph of the Nov 1910 Land Plan that may even have distortions to it for obvious reasons----eg a photo of the plan and not the actual plan itself.

I would prefer to just go with metes and bounds which certainly are accurate or some landowner will eventually realize the problem and get it resurveyed and fixed. Only problem with that with the creation of Merion East is that road was not surveyed and put on the entire property survey until about a year after the time we're discussing. I have those metes and bounds of that later survey of Merion East by the way.

Also, Michael, when you say you are paraphrasing some of that MCC material that the Merion historians found over a year ago do you have the actual material or are you just paraphrasing it or requoting it off some of my descriptions of it and some of my quotes of it from last year on some of the Merion threads now in the back pages?

[Mike Cirba]

Tom

A combination of things posted here previously, things you sent me, and things I saw twice with Wayne.

Did I get something wrong?

[TEPaul]

"Did I get something wrong?"


Mike:

No, I don't think so. I'm just trying to figure out what some of these guys are looking for. Maybe they still think some of those who have the material have some requirement to send it to them. That's just not the process even if they don't seem to want to admit it and after it was explained to them by both Merion and MCC.

On the flipside, neither Moriarty or MacWood ever tried to share anything they were doing on this subject with me. Life cuts both ways, don't you know?

[Tom MacWood]

Tom

A combination of things posted here previously, things you sent me, and things I saw twice with Wayne.

Did I get something wrong?

I wouldn't be surprised. That's what happens when documents are not disseminated for everyone to analyze and study.

[Tom MacWood]

TMac,

Good question.  All I really know is that the City of Dallas has ads touting the success of its students in critical areas, mostly to counteract the notion that its inner city schools provide inferior educmacation.  I actually believe that Ohio in general has good schools, so they probably don't advertise like Dallas does.

Its just that your critical thinking isn't always a good reflection of that.  Or, more accurately, your ability to ask us inane questions is not a good reflection of that.  You might think its pithy, (and sometimes it is) but if I am in just the wrong mood, or you ask too many in a row, they come off as more annoying than anything.

This morning, its a combination of both factors that set me off..........And, as I type this, I see you ask another one!  Please reread the Francis account, rather than, or at least before, asking us.  While he may not have used the word "stuck" he implied that the last five holes were a bit of a problem.  Again, geez.   Maybe its not the Ohio schools we should blame....but I hear Ginko Biloba is good for memory loss!

What's your excuse?

[Mike Cirba]

Tom

Are there other clubs you think we should collectively demand release thei private records for our public reciew and dissemination here?

NGLA?  Garden CityVV

Others?

Should we make them all prove thir histories are coRrect?

[Tom MacWood]

"Did Francis say when they were stuck?"



Jeeesus, MacWood, please try to keep up here. You may be a couple of years behind this discussion. If Francis had actually said when they got stuck on those last five holes and when he biked over to Lloyd's house in the middle of the night we would've been having this discussion and argument for the last year and a half, would we?

Well, belay that. If Francis actually said in that 1950 article that he biked over to Lloyd's house in the middle of the night in the beginning of April 1911 I suspect you and Moriarty would still find some way to deny it or rationalize it away as unimportant!

But Francis did say something in that article that is a pretty clear indication of when that bike ride in the middle of the night pretty much had to have been AFTER in time.

Do you think there is any possibility you might read his article again and pick up what he said that indicates THAT??  

Do we know what kind of bicycle Francis owned? Was is it a standard bicycle or one of those bikes with one very large wheel and a smallish one or perhaps a tandem?

[DMoriarty]

Jeff Brauer,

Many pages ago you discussed the missing 3 acres, and the alleged references to it in April 1911, as if it had something to do with your new theory.    I believe I asked you a number of questions about the 3 acres and how it relates to your theory.  Would it be possible for you to address those questions?    Or do you no longer feel that the 3 acres had anything to do with it?  

The reason I keep asking is that this missing three acres tends to get thrown in once in a while as if it means something (along with the rest of the red herrings) but we never seem to get to the bottom of it.  Perhaps you could follow through with your theory and explain the role the three acres played?

As for the "weakest links" in my theory:

* No documented evidence to contradict the April 11 report on the timing of the routing,
Given that, as far as I know, the alleged April 11 report does not say anything about when the routing process began, contradictory evidence is not only unnecessary, it would be impossible-- how could I contradict something that the alleged report doesn't establish?

* His interpretation ignores the blasting "at the 16th green" which couldn't have been known until the final routing was picked by CBM
My interpretation has never ignored the blasting.   And for reasons already explained, I disagree with your assumption that blasting  couldn't have happened until after CBM approved the final routing.

* Since Clubhouse Road fits the holes 1, 14, and 15 like a glove, why/how could they figure that out and then draw an approximate line in November and then draw an incorrect line AND base a land purchase on it?
I am not sure even understand this.  I thought we agreed long ago that Merion likely had the right to tweak the  western boundary here and there. I disagree with your assumption that HDC did much of anything to "figure out" the final road and disagree with your assumption that they then misrepresented it.    The map in question existed to generally illustrate the state of their agreement at the time.

Other points.

You state:   "He theorizes that it all happened just prior to the meeting and was a rush job."  Not sure what you are talking about, but I don't think I ever theorized any such thing.

My explanation is not only simple, it also takes into consideration Francis and the initial offer by HDC.   The 1910 plan shows us generally the state of agreement at that time, and it shows us that the Francis "swap" had already occurred, at least in principle.

Again, Jeff, the answers to my questions, if you please?

[Tom MacWood]

Tom

Are there other clubs you think we should collectively demand release thei private records for our public reciew and dissemination here?

NGLA?  Garden CityVV

Others?

Should we make them all prove thir histories are coRrect?

Good question. No, I don't believe clubs should be required to prove their histories. That traditionally is the job objective historians. But that being said I see no good reason why any organization, private or public, would conceal historical documents (historical being defined as 50+ years old), unless of course it has to do with national security or personal privacy issues. We have seen plenty of MCC documents on this site, you've posted some yourself. Obviously privacy is not the issue...so what is the reason why some documents are shared and others are concealed?

[DMoriarty]

Tom

Are there other clubs you think we should collectively demand release thei private records for our public reciew and dissemination here?

NGLA?  Garden CityVV

Others?

Should we make them all prove thir histories are coRrect?

If you guys decide to selectively use portions of other clubs' records to try and bully and browbeat us into believing their legends, then we'd expect you to come clean with their source material as well.

Speaking of source material, the Evans letter references at least two lines of source material that have never been brought forward, and which would go along ways toward cleaning all this up.   Now why do you suppose that is? 

[Mike Cirba]

Tom/David,

San Francisco Golf Club has a bit of an uncertain history.

Why don't you give them a ring and tell then we need their records for your review here?

[DMoriarty]

Tom/David,

San Francisco Golf Club has a bit of an uncertain history.

Why don't you give them a ring and tell then we need their records for your review here?

Why?   Have you selectively cherry-picked SFGC's records (or rather your unverified claims about their records) to try and disingenuously manipulation our view of their history?  Because if you have, I'll surely demand that you come clean.

[Mike Cirba]

No, have you and Tom tried to make a mockery of their existing history onthis website yet?

[DMoriarty]

No, have you and Tom tried to make a mockery of their existing history onthis website yet?

This characterization speaks volumes about your willingness and ability to deal with Merion's real history.   While you have fought tooth and nail at every turn, my presentation of Merion's early history has proven to be remarkably accurate.  That you would still pretend that this is not the case shows you as the small-minded partisan you've always been.

[Mike Cirba]

Perhaps you should read the first post on this thread?

Mockery is a very benign term for the crap you guys hurled at that club and their history.

[Phil_the_Author]

Mike,

You suggested that, "Tom/David, San Francisco Golf Club has a bit of an uncertain history. Why don't you give them a ring and tell then we need their records for your review here?"

Just wait between two and three weeks and all the questions will be answered when the latest issue of Tillinghast Illustrated is published. It contains a detailed course evolution history of the SFGC. Hopefully it will be sooner, but Bob Trebus will be having spinal surgery on Tuesday and may not be up to putting iot on  site before then.

But if anyone wants to call feel free...

[Mike Cirba]

Phil,

I'll look forward to it and I'm also sure you went directly to the club before trying to write an accurate history.

[Phil_the_Author]

Mike,

 

[Mike Cirba]

Phil,

What a novel idea!   

[DMoriarty]

Phil,

I'll look forward to it and I'm also sure you went directly to the club before trying to write an accurate history.

Mike,  Did you go to NGLA before you began trying to rewrite their history with your bogus interpretations based on your misunderstanding of those 1906 articles?  How about you Phil?  Did you get approval from NGLA before your little exercise challenging their design attribution?    And Mike, did you go to Merion with all your cockamamie theories about their history which you have spun out over the past several years.  Surely have have declared as true 10 times the theories I have, the difference is mine were true.  

As you well know, Merion was well aware of what I was doing through their self-proclaimed historian, Wayne Morrison, and their self-proclaimed non-member mouthpiece, Tom Paul.   And they wanted nothing to do with my research.   Besides, as you would know if you looked at it honestly, I had everything Merion had plus much more.  

Lastly Mike, did Merion provide you with some sort of membership for your overzealous advocacy, so that you feel comfortable speaking for them? If not then I suggest you let Merion speak for Merion.  

This should have gone to Merion crap is nothing more than yet another lame attempt to discredit me since you have failed so miserably in discrediting my essay.  

[TEPaul]

"Speaking of source material, the Evans letter references at least two lines of source material that have never been brought forward, and which would go along ways toward cleaning all this up.   Now why do you suppose that is?"



David Moriarty:

What source material are you referring to and I'm not sure I understand your question?   
 
 

[Tom MacWood]

No, have you and Tom tried to make a mockery of their existing history onthis website yet?

Mike
Is that the issue? Is that why some documents are shared and others are restricted to a select few?

[Phil_the_Author]

David,

You asked, "How about you Phil?  Did you get approval from NGLA before your little exercise challenging their design attribution?"

Sorry, but I NEVER challenged their design attribution. I asked if BASED UPON WHAT WAS WRITTEN in a single source article if it should be challenged. I'm sorry if you simply didn't understand that, even now after I've clarified and directly stated it several times on this thread.

If I believed that a challenge to a club's history is in order I ALWAYS approach the club privately and first and I NEVER write anything about it until I am 100% convinced and after seeing what records they have. I have actually looked into claims about Tilly designing several clubs that I've had to tell the club or the members that asked me that tilly didn't design the course they thought he had. I'm certain that will surprise you.

I also respect the rights of personal privacy that a club & its board asks of me when they allow me access to their records, a privilege that I have had on more than a few occasions.

I certainly can't justify Tom or anyone else who quoted from the Merion board minutes on here when they evidently have not given anyone permission to do so, but that they did certainly doesn't contradict that they may have wished it hadn't happened and that they don't want it to. Just because someone breaks the speed limit doesn't mean the speed limit is changed. Likewise, just because a confidence may have been shared doesn't mean that it is fair game and that the club will allow it or condone it.

I understand your frustration in this because I have been denied access to records and documents at some Tilly clubs I want to research. It has taught me patience as several of those have now given me that access. This happened because I made discreet inquiries and built up confidence and trust with their boards and respected all of their conditions.

It may be too late for you with Merion because of all of the controversies on here in the last few years, some of which admittedly were not caused by you. Then again, whether you are correct in your theories or not, no one can say that you aren't serious in your research and desire to learn its history. I suggest you use that and try to make whatever discreet inquiries that you can and who knows, maybe it will happen.