Desmond Tolhurst's account

[TEPaul]

"If you guys ever come up with anything relevant let me know.   A good start would be coming clean with the documents referenced in the Evans letter, including the Nov. 10, HDC offer and the Lloyd letter(s) confirming just what tract Merion agreed to buy in November 1910."



IF WE come up with anything relevant?!?

WE'VE come up all the material information that was at MCC you apparently weren't even aware of when you wrote your half-cocked bizarre essay about Wilson being too much the novice to have been able to route and design Merion East and therefore Macdonald must have done it for him even though there was no material evidence to suggest such a thing other than Macdonald and Whigam coming to Ardmore to look at land for a day, the NGLA meeting in early March 1911 which you weren't aware of and speculated must have happened two months before! And of course you had no idea he came back on April 6, 1911, did you? If you did then why didn't you ever mention it?  

What did you have anyway when you wrote that essay? Was it just that "Sayer's Scrapbook" that was at the Pennsylvania Historical Society?? Is that IT?

Is THAT why you didn't even have Macdonald's letter and is that why Wayne Morrison had to find it for you??

Are you now telling me you've never even seen the HDC OFFER that was made to the MCC Board on Nov. 10, 1910 that began this entire agreement? Are you telling me you don't even know what it says, AT THIS POINT??

Lloyd's letter(s) confirming what tract Merion agreed to buy in November 1910? Does that at least mean you are aware that I described the HDC offer to MCC in Nickolsen's letter of Nov. 10, 1910 to the board?  

Moriarty, the sum total of what YOU STILL DON'T KNOW about the contemporaneous material evidence of MCC and the move to Ardmore and the creation of Merion East is really shocking! Does this all mean you just continue to ignore it or deny it or rationalize it away because you know it all indicates just how misguided that essay and your whole campaign against Merion's history really is? It must be as everyone else who participates on these threads seems to grasp it a lot better than you do.

And you're trying to tell somebody that your essay, "The Missing Faces of Merion" is the most accurate account of that course's history in 1910 and 1911 extant??

What in the world kind of ridiculous joke are you trying to play on this website with an important subject like this one?

The other day, I believe you even mentioned you aren't even aware of what that seminal April 19, 1911 Board meeting was about or what its meeting minutes said.

Why don't you just go back to square one and make a phone call to Merion and MCC and tell them you're interested in the history of Merion East and learning something about it?

Or if you even KNOW, I'd like to see you list for us what it is at this point YOU STILL DON'T KNOW about this signficant club's material history! Are you even aware, at this point, what you failed to research that has now been made part of this from the MCC archives?

[Mike Cirba]

I think the graphics I posted in #520 are important to consider again based on the present discussion and some of what we're being told about why the triangle was drawn on the November 1910 Land Plan that is supposed proof that Richard Francis did his 130x190 Land Swap BEFORE that time;

Tom,

I think this is very important observation.

It's one thing to claim that the "Approximate Road" location is the reason that the width at the base of the triangle on that November 1910 map only measures perhaps 100 yards wide when Francis claims his swap was for 130 (and today's course reflects that 130), but it's quite another to be off by 40% when the length that triangle is drawn on the map is 310 yards and the present course reflects Francis' other 190 yard dimension!  

I don't believe there is any way on earth if Francis (and Merion) swapped land they already owned through Lloyd (that particular purchase didn't happen until December 19th, 1910 anyway, another reason thinking the Land Swap happened prior to then makes no sense)  for a 130x190 parcel somewhere else, that they would hire a professional surveyor to work up a detailed scale map for a member solicitation where that important bit of property that allowed them to complete their golf course routing now somehow mysteriously measured 100x310.   That dimension only accounts for 76% of the width, yet overstates the length by almost 40%!

I think earlier I wrote that that area in question was 265, but that was my mistake...you're correct that it measures slightly over 300 yards.

It might be helpful to look at some property maps again...

This first one from 1908 shows the original pre-purchase dimensions of the Johnson Farm.   As you can see, there is a nice, healthy rectangle of land above the southern border of Haverford College that the club would seemingly want to utilize for golf, especially given proximity to the quarry.



Here again is the way that northern section of the property was represented on the Nov 1910 Land Plan.  It makes it appear that the golf course property runs all the way to the top end of the original Johnson Farm land, when in fact the Francis Swap took it only to the northern end of the adjacent Haverford College property.



Here we see  the land area marked “JW”, which represents the Johnson Farm land that was NOT used for golf, which not only includes unused land to the west of the present course, but also land north above where the triangle actually ended, for another 120 yards as Tom mentioned.   The thin purple line represents the original line drawn on the November 1910 Land Plan which as seen does a woeful job representing neither the existing boundary lines of the course, nor the triangle area of the purported Francis Swap.




***EDIT***by the way, Golf House Road, at least the paved surface of it, is approximately 22 feet wide, or just over 7 yards.

[TEPaul]

"I don't know for sure the exact reason the top part hadn't already been narrowed by November 1910.  Short answer is, though, is probably that the location of the road was Approximate and the map illustrative, not exact.  While the map expresses the general deal, it does not provide the exact dimensions.  As we've discussed, Merion may have had the he ability to tweak the western border a few yards here and there even after 1910, so as to narrowly the land bought to the golf course, and they may not have done this yet.  (Remember, the 190x130 yard measure is where they finally ended up, they may not have known exactly how much land they needed up there yet.)"




Mike Cirba, Jeff Brauer and Jim Sullivan:

Read the above carefully and consider it just as carefully. To me what Moriarty said there essentially shows that he has finally come around to admitting that he believes pretty much the same thing we've maintained about that triangle and the so-called Francis fix for well over a year now.

Of course he probably feels he needs to admit it in baby steps-----hence his feeling that maybe they tweaked that area a few yards here and there rather than the few acres here and there that they really did tweak that road dilineation via Francis' solution.

After about 397 pages of arguing over this Francis fix it looks like it may finally be over, even though it is certainly possible (or should I say NOT impossible ) that he will try to deny somehow what he said above or that he didn't mean it as we take what he said to mean!   

[Mike Cirba]

Mike
If David Moriarty told you he discovered a document that said CB Macdonald created five separate designs for MCC before they collectively arrived at a final routing would you accept his word without proof?


Tom,

I understand your position there...I do, which is why I posted as accurate a paraphrasing of the relevant portions of the minutes as relates to the April 1911 Board Meeting the other day as I could without directly quoting, and why I asked Jim Sullivan, who I think at least you and David believe is fair and objective, and who also saw the MCC Minutes, to speak to the authenticity of what I wrote, which he did.

I did then try to move discussion to what that actually means, because you and I agree that it's clear no golf course was designed prior to that November 1910 Land Plan, but we keep getting stuck back in that triangle, which is indeed a red herring, and has been since that essay was released.

[Mike Cirba]

Tom,

I don't think that's what David is saying at all.   I think he's saying he wants to have it both ways.   He wants the presence of any land up there to represent the Francis Land Swap yet wants to fall back on the "approximate" language to cover a gamut of measurement sins, such as the fact that it's only 100 yards wide by 310 yards long as opposed to the 130x190 measurement Francis mentioned.

It's similar to the situation where he wants us to believe Merion routed the golf course prior to November 1910, then secured 117 EXACT acres they needed.

Yet the Land Plan that was released on that day they secured that land ACTUALLY measures 124 acres, not 117 which David told us some months back he knew all along, but never mentioned in his essay because he thought it was unimportant.

His wanting to have things both ways selectively as needed makes it very frustrating to have a productive discussion.

Similarly, in the NGLA discussion, the articles I posted from 1906 makes it clear that before Macdonald purchased the land in July 1907, he actually secured 200 acres back in late 1906, which he then spent the next several months walking the land, working on a routing and planning the holes in detail with members of his committee, and making plasticene models before completing his purchase and beginning construction.

From this evidence alone David then somehow contends that back then ALL clubs only bought the exact acreage they needed AFTER doing the routing and planning the holes and says Merion did the exact same thing.

He's partly right in the case of Merion, but his application of timing and understanding of the process is all wrong.  

In July 1910 after reviewing the property they thought they needed about 120 acres.

In November of 1910 they secured 117 acres.   Because the course was not yet designed, Cuyler suggested to Lloyd that he buy the entire property, which he did at 161 acres.

Then, they routed and designed the golf course, which required them to buy 120 acres.

They bought 120 acres in July, 1911, so yes, they in fact did route and plan their golf course before purchasing it.

[Mike Cirba]

Is it really that difficult to see what they did, and where they swapped land between what was proposed in November 1910 and the course that was built after Francis made the last five holes "fit"?

Why was one proposed, approximate curving road built pretty much as planned and the other significantly modified?? 

[Mike Cirba]

Did Turnbridge Road exist before the golf course was built?  

It sure appears that way on the map, and would explain things quite well.

[Tom MacWood]

Mike
If David Moriarty told you he discovered a document that said CB Macdonald created five separate designs for MCC before they collectively arrived at a final routing would you accept his word without proof?

[Mike Cirba]

Mike
If David Moriarty told you he discovered a document that said CB Macdonald created five separate designs for MCC before they collectively arrived at a final routing would you accept his word without proof?



Tom,

If you won't accept my word, or Jim Sullivan's word that what I typed here from the minutes is accurate, then you should try to make arrangements with the club to go to Merion and see for yourself.   I don't know what else to tell you.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Mike,

As to Turnbridge, I don't think it was built, since it was part of the same yet to be built subdivision.  I do think there is a physical reason why it connects to college Ave where it does - either a high point with good visibility both ways, or originally to give Haverford College access to its back parcel.

To answer your and perhaps David's question, I think the weakest links in his theory are:

* No documented evidence to contradict the April 11 report on the timing of the routing,
* His interpretation ignores the blasting "at the 16th green" which couldn't have been known until the final routing was picked by CBM
* Since Clubhouse Road fits the holes 1, 14, and 15 like a glove, why/how could they figure that out and then draw an approximate line in November and then draw an incorrect line AND base a land purchase on it?

It would have been just as easy to draw the line correctly, and more engineering like.  He theorizes that it all happened just prior to the meeting and was a rush job.  That is possible, but I believe it would be an extraordinary coincidence, and less likely.  All of that is still speculation on both our parts.  I won't repeat a bunch of arguments, other than to say in general, the simplest explanation usually is the best, especially when its based on the few documents that say what happened, rather than "My understanding of the facts (Actually, David's)".  

[Mike Cirba]

I'll say it again, in case anyone missed it...

Did Turnbridge Road exist before the golf course was built?  

It sure appears that way on the map, and would explain things quite well.

[EDIT***}Oopss...sorry Jeff...our responses crossed.

Interesting though, that College Avenue existed and is marked.   However, I think you might be correct as it doesn't have a dotted line running down it as the other existing roads do.

(SECOND EDIT***)  I'm wrong...not all existing roads had lines through them.   I'd be very curious to know if Tunbridge road existed prior, as it's already named, as is Merton Road

[Tom MacWood]

Mike
If David Moriarty told you he discovered a document that said CB Macdonald created five separate designs for MCC before they collectively arrived at a final routing would you accept his word without proof?



Tom,

If you won't accept my word, or Jim Sullivan's word that what I typed here from the minutes is accurate, then you should try to make arrangements with the club to go to Merion and see for yourself.   I don't know what else to tell you.

You didn't answer my question.

[Tom MacWood]

As to why they were stuck until April 6, 1911 on the routing....well speculation but

Jeff
Why do you say they were stuck on a routing?

[Mike Cirba]

Tom MacWood,

If Jim Sullivan told me he saw David's proof of Five Macdonald routings and vouched for their veracity I'd believe him.

[Jeff_Brauer]

TMac,

I really didn't say they were stuck on a routing. Jim Sullivan did, and I was answering his question.

BTW, I think Mike Cirba DID answer your question, over a couple of different posts.  Geez, you can infer Barker designed MCC from trains schedules, but you can't infer that he understands your position from his answers?

Sorry for butting in......

[Mike Cirba]

Jeff,

In looking at it, I agree that I'd be surprised if Tunbridge Road existed because it looks to be just the gently curving road connective tissue connecting the other proposed gently curving roads running through the entire HDC subdivision, one through the Real Estate component that got built as planned, and the other along the golf course that has wide deviations from plan to accommodate the necessities of the routing.

[Tom MacWood]

Tom MacWood,

If Jim Sullivan told me he saw David's proof of Five Macdonald routings and vouched for their veracity I'd believe him.

That wasn't my question.

[Tom MacWood]

TMac,

I really didn't say they were stuck on a routing. Jim Sullivan did, and I was answering his question.

BTW, I think Mike Cirba DID answer your question, over a couple of different posts.  Geez, you can infer Barker designed MCC from trains schedules, but you can't infer that he understands your position from his answers?

Sorry for butting in......

What was his answer?

[Jeff_Brauer]

TMac,

Somehow I doubt the Ohio school system uses you in their ads.....

That said, you did ask MC whether he would trust DM, not JS......

[TEPaul]

"Yet the Land Plan that was released on that day they secured that land ACTUALLY measures 124 acres, not 117 which David told us some months back he knew all along, but never mentioned in his essay because he thought it was unimportant."


Michael:

I just hate to see you keep saying that on these threads. I've tried to warn you what is potentially wrong with trying to present a number like that as a fact. How do you know that land in green on that Nov 1910 Land Plan measured 124 acres instead of the 117 that Nov. 1910 agreement called for back then in November 1910 or was ever intended to?

Would it be because Brian Izatt tried to measure it on some kind of Google ruler and told you so?  

This is precisely how rumors tend to turn into supposed or accepted facts both now and in the future and serve to just really complicate an accurate understanding of these histories and when things really did happen.

[TEPaul]

Forget about Jeff Brauer or Jim Sullivan or Mike Cirba saying the Wilson Committee got stuck with their routing. The one who actually said it is far more important to understanding what happened back then than any of them are.

Richard Francis said they got stuck with their routing, and on the last five holes and he would've been in a position to know! He was there and he thankfully recorded that problem for history in his 1950 article for the US Open magazine.

[Mike Cirba]

Tom,

That's not how Bryan came up with that estimate, actually.

He overlaid the existing course onto the Land Plan and then estimated the acreage puts and gets along and above Golf House Road, and figured if today's course measures x acres, that there were about 4 more acres of puts than gets.

Your larger point is understood, however.

[Tom MacWood]

TMac,

Somehow I doubt the Ohio school system uses you in their ads.....

The Ohio school system has ads?

[Tom MacWood]

Forget about Jeff Brauer or Jim Sullivan or Mike Cirba saying the Wilson Committee got stuck with their routing. The one who actually said it is far more important to understanding what happened back then than any of them are.

Richard Francis said they got stuck with their routing, and on the last five holes and he would've been in a position to know! He was there and he thankfully recorded that problem for history in his 1950 article for the US Open magazine.

Did Francis say when they were stuck?

[TEPaul]

Jeffrey:

To answer your question about the connection or intersection of Tunbridge Road and Golf House Road at the intersection of College Avenue, those two roads as built actually do connect at that intersection and directly across from one another.

They also connect across from one another and create that intersection a good 10-12 yards to the east of how they are drawn on that Nov. 1910 Land Plan.

And I'm sure not trying to measure this on some Google ruler on a computer. I went out there a week or so ago and measured it right on the ground. I also found the stone monument on the ground that reflects the MCC land exchange (triangle sliver) for an access easement to Haverford College in 1928.

And I certainly doubt Tunbridge Road was built in Nov. 1910 because that date was the point that HDC finally accumulated the 338.6 acres that motivated them to make the offer of 117 acres to MCC. The 338.6 acres is actually articulated in a five parcel list on that Nov. 10, 1910 offer letter of HDC's secretary Nickolsen to the MCC Board of Governors.