[Mike Cirba]

Sully,

Based on the articles I provided, can you tell me how you think the approaches of CBM buying more land then he needed to design and fit the course at NGLA over the next few months differs from what Lloyd did at Merion when he purchased 161 acres in Dec 1910?

[TEPaul]

Mr. Jeffrey Brauer, Sir:

Regarding Post #1052 which is to you, could you shed any light for me on who exactly is hiding any MCC or Merion source material and/or what source material is being hidden? As far as I've ever known all the source material extant is at Merion GC's and/or MCC's archives and I am not aware nor have I ever been aware that any of it has ever been hidden. Some of it was a bit hard to locate way up in a dusty, musty attic where it had been reposited many, many decades ago but it wasn't actually hidden or hiding, at least not purposefully, as far as I know. I mean it wasn't hidden or hiding in the sense of one of my favorite games when I was a kid----eg "Hide and Go Seek."

Thank, thank you, THANK you very much.

PS:
But if I am going to be completely above board about everything throughout my wild and odd life I must admit that when I was about five years old and living in the winter in Daytona Beach, Florida, I did invent a real cool game that all us kids played constantly with incredible alacrity. It was called;


"Alter the original MCC and Merion documents; Hide them----and THEN Go Seek."

[Phil_the_Author]

Tom Macwood,

Although it was posted a page and a half ago, I am away and coincidently at the site where, as you put it, "No, its not the same. CC Worthington was neither inexperienced or untested. He had designed and built at least one golf course prior to Shawnee, and probably two..."

First of all, it was only one 9-hole course that he designed. It was terrible! It was on his estate and was the site for the Manawalamink Golf Club which was chartered in 1900. In August of 1910 it would change its name when a new club was formed and ccharter issued for the Shawnee Golf Club. By the way the 100-year anniversary dinner at the Inn last night was wonderful.

You can get a good glimpse of just how bad the course was and why he would turn to his friend who had not designed a course to design Shawnee, which is located about a half-mile away from Manawalamink, known today as Fort Depuy when the 100-year anniversary book comes out next May.

[JESII]

Sully,

Based on the articles I provided, can you tell me how you think the approaches of CBM buying more land then he needed to design and fit the course at NGLA over the next few months differs from what Lloyd did at Merion when he purchased 161 acres in Dec 1910?

Mike,

To start with, MCC had already agreed to purchase a very specific acreage well less than the total Lloyd purchased.

Do you think was more beneficial to MCC or HDC during this entire transaction?

[JESII]

Scratch beneficial and plug in VALUABLE...

[Mike Cirba]

Jim,

I didn't really get to read your discuSsion with Tom about capitalization, but I'll try to catch up.

In the meantime, related to your response, and possibly related to your debate with Tom, what factors do you think might have been at work for Merion to "secure" 117 acres (which may have been specific land or a not to exceed figure) in mid Nov 1910, only to have MCC instruct Lloyd to buy the entire 161 acres of the Johnson farm and the Dallas Estate five weeks later?

That move to me is the strongest evidence arguing against some sort of defined course routing prior to then.

[JESII]

First point...the width of 15 and 16 would not have been completely determined so to suggest I indicated the course was "defined" is inaccurate.

[JESII]

Second...Tom and I didn't get too into the capitalization stuff but I would like to...maybe we should meet for a beer to discuss it.

[JESII]

As to why the arrangement went through Lloyd...I don't know...it's certainly interesting.

Even that facilitation...does it benefit Merion or HDC more? I think it benefits HDC more.

[TEPaul]

Sully:

We will talk some more about the $300,000 stock capitalization Lloyd engineered (underwrote?) for HDC, what it was for, how it was parceled out and to whom, what backed it, what HDC's part in it was, what Lloyd et al's part was, and what the part was that MCC members and perhaps friends took ((Lloyd said one half of the stock subscription was basically allotted to be offered to MCC members).

I don't mind getting into this somewhat but if I do you must understand that the nuts and bolts details of what Lloyd did this way, particularly for HDC is not exactly all part of the MCC records for fairly obvious reasons. And so I just don't have very detailed records of the HDC part with Lloyd, other than that circular that he sent to MCC members on Nov. 15, 1910.

[TEPaul]

Also, Sully, I've been aware of some other very close comparisons to the way NGLA raised money, came into being, originally proposed a real estate development contiguous to the course (that never happened) and the way Merion East Ardmore came into being and raised money in conjunction with a real estate development for well over a year. And I've had that Brooklyn Eagle article posted above that explains what was going on with the creation of NGLA in 1905 for a long time too.

It has not been lost on me that there is a very close comparison between the idea of an "amateur/sportsman" committee to design and build Merion East and the amateur committee that designed and built NGLA. I think, and have thought for a long time that there is some real significance for both clubs to that last line in that Brooklyn Eagle article with what both NGLA and MCC very much wanted to do-----eg do their courses WITHOUT a professional architect!!

I have also felt for a long time that there is a very close comparison in the business aspects of how NGLA and Merion East Ardmore came into being and particularly with a residential component with both originally.

In the case of Merion East Ardmore, Lloyd did it with an existing residential real estate developer (HDC) and with NGLA the plan was basically for the club and its founders to do that (again, it never happened at NGLA).

Lloyd did it with a stock underwriting subscription that funded the HDC development (the corporation stock subscripton of MCCGA was different and separate) and NGLA did it (or proposed to do it) with a stock subcription to founding members to buy the land and apparently fund the creation of the golf course. One difference was NGLA was forming a club and MCC was just moving the golf component of an existing club.

I do think the business comparison is very significant with NGLA and MCC and that may've been one of the primary reasons MCC asked Macdonald (Whigam) to visit them in June 1910. I think some proof of that was that Griscom (who knew Macdonald from the Lesley Cup and who I believe was a founding member of NGLA) who wasn't even on the MCC Search Committee asked Macdonald to come to Philadelphia and Macdonald wrote his letter after his visit not to the chairman of the MCC Search Committee,  Robert Lesley, but to Horatio Gates Lloyd at Drexel & Co., the man they all probably knew at that time might be essentially organizing the financing for this combined HDC/MCC effort in Ardmore, just as Macdonald had essentially initially organized the founding and financing of NGLA through some financial heavy-weights like Lloyd.

[TEPaul]

By the way, NGLA and Macdonald did have some heavy hitters behind them as MCC had the financial heavy hitter, Horatio Gates Lloyd, partner of Drexel & Co in 1910 and partner of J.P. Morgan & Co in 1912 behind them.

You will notice that in that Brooklyn Eagle article posted above that Macdonald had as his treasurer of NGLA when it was formed one James A. Stillman, another financial juggernaut. Stillman's family essentially controlled New York's National City Bank (later became the behemoth Citigroup). The Stillman family were related by marriage to the Rockefellers.

[DMoriarty]

Jeffrey,

I certainly didn't expect you to agree with my understanding of how the verb "to lay out" was commonly used in 1910, but I was hoping at least for a reasonable conversation on the issue.  But unfortunately you have returned once again lecturing me on what you dislike about me and my approach.  While I guess you must get a kick out of comparing me to a conspiracy theorist, I have trouble seeing how that advances the conversation.  

I will nonetheless try to stick to the topic.  

In short,  the phrase "to lay out a golf course" meant to lay it out on the ground.  The term never applied to planning alone.   And often times, planning occurred before a course was laid out.  Merion didn't even own the land, so while they could plan on paper, they couldn't lay out the course on the ground.  

Despite Mike's continued protestations to the contrary, this is what happened a NGLA.   M&W found the land and immediately began planning how they would arrange the golf holes.  Then took an option on the land and continued planning.  Once they had planned the course to the degree necessary to determine the boundaries they finally purchased the land and laid out the golf course.   Max Behr was so impressed that he held NGLA up as a model of how to go about creating a course.

Another example we've discussed in the past was Columbia Country Club, which was reportedly planned by HH Barker, but not laid out on the ground until the next year.   Another example is HH Barker who created a planned lay out for Merion, long before any land was purchased or course laid out.    

Here is another example from the September 16, 1915, Kansas City Star:  

"A new golf course is being laid out under plans drawn by "Tom" Bendelow who designed the Blue Hills course in Kansas City."  

While a plan can be "laid out" on paper, a golf course cannot.    A golf course isn't a golf course unless and until it is laid out on the ground.  And oftentimes it was laid out pursuant to a plan like in the Bendolow and other examples above.

As for your characterization of that over 50% of my theories rely on word parsing and my interpretations, I suggest you review my essay.  Twenty (20) sections of my essay provide a historical analysis of certain aspects of the early origins of Merion East.  While any historical analysis necessarily builds on existing historical accounts, every one of these twenty (20) sections also offered facts and analysis which had never before been disseminated, at least not publicly, and which have largely proven correct.  

Perhaps you have come to believe that since Mike and TEPaul cannot stop talking about the particular bit about "to lay out," then it must constitute a much larger portion of my of my work about Merion than it really does?   The reality is that it they've been driving this conversation, because their thesis depends upon it. Mine does not.  There is ample evidence to establish CBM's involvement no matter when the course was initially routed.  


By the way, I noticed that Mike Cirba is again doubting that "to lay off" was really used regarding golf courses.    It was.  Not as much as "to lay out" but it was not all that uncommon.   Don't mistake Mike's inability to find proof of this with evidence that it didn't happen.  

Mike was half right about something, though.  "Lay off" was more commonly used in conjunction with creating roads.  Like with golf courses, "lay off" referred to actually arranging them on the ground, and not merely planning them on paper.   Roads were "laid off" on the ground.  Same as golf courses.

[Mike Cirba]

It has not been lost on me that there is a very close comparison between the idea of an "amateur/sportsman" committee to design and build Merion East and the amateur committee that designed and built NGLA. I think, and have thought for a long time that there is some real significance for both clubs to that last line in that Brooklyn Eagle article with what both NGLA and MCC very much wanted to do-----eg do their courses WITHOUT a professional architect!!



Tom,

In retrospect, I think this is the reason Tom MacWood tried so hard to minimize the knowledge and reputation of Alan Wilson over the past few years.   At one point the denigration became so intense he even started a thread titled "Who was Alan Wilson", arguing that he was essentially a meaningless club bureaucrat who was simply mourning his brother.  

As you know, Wilson gave perhaps the definitive history of what actually happened at Merion in the years from 1910-1914, and the fact that Alan stressed so much that they did all of the work without the help of professional architects like Barker, like Willie Campbell, like Willie Dunn, et.al, just seems like vinegar in his soda, and given his biases, I can see why.   This has to particularly sting since he seems affixed still to the absurd notion that HH Barker actually designed Merion...honestly I don't know if he's actually serious with this absurdity or just busting your stones.

The fact is, Merion...and guys like Griscom, et.al., already had their experiences with Willie Campbell, who designed their original nine-hole course, and Willie Dunn, who modified it.

I have to believe they saw this tired approach to be of limited value overall, with almost no real successes, and probably inspired by Macdonald's revolutionary metihod figured they would just figure it out themselves.

For the record, and the discussion, here again is what Alan Wilson wrote in that regard;

Merion’s East and West Golf Courses

   There were unusual and interesting features connected with the beginnings of these two courses which should not be forgotten. First of all, they were both “Homemade”. When it was known that we must give up the old course, a “Special Committee on New Golf Grounds”—composed of the late Frederick L. Baily. S.T. Bodine, E.C. Felton, H.G. Lloyd, and Robert Lesley, Chairman, chose the site; and a “Special Committee” DESIGNED and BUILT the two courses without the help of a golf architect. Those two good and kindly sportsmen, Charles B. MacDonald and H.J. Whigam, the men who conceived the idea of and designed the National Links at Southampton, both ex-amateur champions and the latter a Scot who had learned his golf at Prestwick—twice came to Haverford, first to go over the ground and later to consider and advise about our plans. They also had our committee as their guests at the National and their advice and suggestions as to the lay-out of the East course were of the greatest help and value. Except for this, the entire responsibility for the DESIGN and CONSTRUCTION of the two courses rests upon the special Construction Committee, composed of R.S. Francis, R.E. Griscom, H.G. Lloyd. Dr. Harry Toulmin, and the late Hugh I. Wilson, Chairman.

[Tom MacWood]

Tom MacWood,

In a strict sense, the Merion course was routed on April 6th, 1910, as that is the day CBM came down and helped Wilson's committee to select the best of thei five proposed plams.

However, since we're being precise here, the actual Routing Day was a few weeks later in April, 1911, as that was the day the Merion Board of Governor's approved the recommendations of the Wilson Committee, as read by board member Robert Lesley, after which construction commenced, and the club finalized their land purchase and finalized their boundaries in July 1911.

I hope that helps.

Mike
It does help. It helps me understand that you have not read Wilson's letters to P&O, either that or you are ignoring them.

Nov. 15, 1910 letter responding to HDC secretary Nickolsen's Nov. 10, 1910 letter to the Board of Governors of MCC.


"E.W. Nicholson, Esq.,
Secretary of the Haverford Development Co.,802 Land Title Bldg., Philada

Dear Sir:

Your letter of November tenth, advising of the purchase of certain tracts of ground on College and Ardmore Avenues, Haverford, by the Haverford Development Company, has been received.  I note that you agree to sell a tract of one hundred and seventeen (117) acres, as agreed upon with Mr. Lloyd, to a corporation to be formed on behalf of the Merion Cricket Club, for the purpose of establishing Golf Links thereon within reasonable time, clear of encumbrance, for the price or sum of Eighty-five thousand dollars, ($85,000.00), payable in cash on or about December 10th, 1910.

In accordance with instructions given me by the Board of Government of the Merion Cricket Club, I beg to state that a Corporation will be formed on behalf of the Club, which will purchase the tract of land above mentioned one hundred and seventeen (117) acres, at the price or sum of Eighty-five thousand dollars ($85,000.00), in accordance with the terms of your proposition, as quoted above, and that as soon as this Corporation obtains possession of the property, we will at once proceed to lay off, and put in shape a Golf Links.

Very truly yours,
(signed) Allen Evans,
President Merion C.C."

TEP
So you are ignoring the Evans' letter? Here he is either saying the course has already been routed and the construction process will begin 12.10.10 OR the routing process will begin 12.10.10. I believe the former is a more logical reading. There was no reason they could not have routed the golf course prior to formally taking ownership of the land, certainly they would had free access to it. On the other hand it would be unlikely they would have done anything physically to it - altering the ground, staking it, etc. - before taking title of it.

[Jeff_Brauer]

David,

With all due respect, I have felt as if I have been lectured around here as well.  We all have!

Calling you a conspiracy theorist may not advance the discussion, but it identifies it for what it truly is.  If your IMO piece isn`t one, I`m not sure what is.

I have read and attempted to understand your points re `laying off.  Saying it again has not convinced me to change my opinion, sad to say. I simply see it used a lot of ways.  And in the case of Merion, I think it meant the same thing, which included routing , planning, and then staking out, prior to building.  That term itself does,t show me when it was routed, especially in context of other documents, although it does`t totally discount some work prior to Nov. 1910.  As before, we just don`t know.

I go back and forth a bit, primarily on the basis of the triangle looking like a triangle in 11-10, but still don`t feel your wordplay arguments are as valid.  To be fair, I assimilate info visually, so maybe I am biased against words inherently.

But, for the most part, we will have to agree to disagree based on known info as I see it.  I will gladly admit I am wrong if new docs come to light, but am pretty entrenched against the same old arguments. Hey, we are all human that way!

TMac,

While there is no reason that they might not have doodled some sketches, there is no record of it, just speculation.  What do you make of the recorded routings in march and april, 1911?  Or CBM`s approval of same in April?  Would you admit the FINAL routing took place thrn, or later, depending on the timing of the land swap?

[TEPaul]

"Tom,

In retrospect, I think this is the reason Tom MacWood tried so hard to minimize the knowledge and reputation of Alan Wilson over the past few years.

As you know, Wilson gave perhaps the definitive history of what actually happened at Merion in the years from 1910-1914, and the fact that Alan stressed so much that they did all of the work without the help of professional architects like Barker, like Willie Campbell, like Willie Dunn, et.al, just seems like vinegar in his soda, and given his biases, I can see why.   This has to particularly sting since he seems affixed still to the absurd notion that HH Barker actually designed Merion...honestly I don't know if he's actually serious with this absurdity or just busting your stones."



MikeC:

I am not completely sure what Tom MacWood's issues or even biases are with these kinds of subjects, even though I do sort of agree with what you said above. In that vein, I have told him for years now that I actually think his issue and his agenda is that he feels many to most to perhaps all of those early immigrant journeymen multi-tasking architects got their contributions minmized in various ways in those days.

I have also told him that I think that is a great subject, an important subject historically and otherwise, and even a subject I may strongly agree with him on, but that he just ought to admit it instead of trying to suggest it and develop it indirectly by running down a man like Merion's Hugh Wilson first to make that point with a Barker or whatever.

But the point I am really interested in developing is exactly what those kinds of people and clubs like NGLA and Macdonald and his original amateur/sportman committee and including MCC and their amateur/sportsman committee really did think about professionalism generally and certainly including in golf architecture in that early era.

There was definitely a real dynamic there in that time in that way and even if it may admittedly seem politically or socially incorrect to some of us today, as people interested in the true facts of history we pretty much need to put our little contemporary issues and agendas and opinions of things like that aside and just deal with it honestly and accurately.

I mean do I blame the likes of a Jefferson or Washington for being slave owners and perhaps racists in their time? No, of course I don't but if they lived in our day I doubt they would've been the way they were back then but if they were that way if they lived in our time of course I would blame them for someting like that!

I think Alan Wilson of Merion certainly articulated it but believe it or not the one who articulated it the most strongly was MCC's long time secretary, Geo. Sayers who wrote and kept all the MCC meeting minutes we have, and in his speech in 1915 about amateurism (that speech was so well received by MCC he was asked to publish it) when he became the president of the club, following long-term president Allen Evans (who described routing and designing and building a golf course as "laying off").

[Tom MacWood]

TMac,

While there is no reason that they might not have doodled some sketches, there is no record of it, just speculation.  What do you make of the recorded routings in march and april, 1911?  Or CBM`s approval of same in April?  Would you admit the FINAL routing took place thrn, or later, depending on the timing of the land swap?

What recorded routing in March or April?

[Mike Cirba]

Tom MacWood,

In a strict sense, the Merion course was routed on April 6th, 1910, as that is the day CBM came down and helped Wilson's committee to select the best of thei five proposed plams.

However, since we're being precise here, the actual Routing Day was a few weeks later in April, 1911, as that was the day the Merion Board of Governor's approved the recommendations of the Wilson Committee, as read by board member Robert Lesley, after which construction commenced, and the club finalized their land purchase and finalized their boundaries in July 1911.

I hope that helps.

Mike
It does help. It helps me understand that you have not read Wilson's letters to P&O, either that or you are ignoring them.

Nov. 15, 1910 letter responding to HDC secretary Nickolsen's Nov. 10, 1910 letter to the Board of Governors of MCC.


"E.W. Nicholson, Esq.,
Secretary of the Haverford Development Co.,802 Land Title Bldg., Philada

Dear Sir:

Your letter of November tenth, advising of the purchase of certain tracts of ground on College and Ardmore Avenues, Haverford, by the Haverford Development Company, has been received.  I note that you agree to sell a tract of one hundred and seventeen (117) acres, as agreed upon with Mr. Lloyd, to a corporation to be formed on behalf of the Merion Cricket Club, for the purpose of establishing Golf Links thereon within reasonable time, clear of encumbrance, for the price or sum of Eighty-five thousand dollars, ($85,000.00), payable in cash on or about December 10th, 1910.

In accordance with instructions given me by the Board of Government of the Merion Cricket Club, I beg to state that a Corporation will be formed on behalf of the Club, which will purchase the tract of land above mentioned one hundred and seventeen (117) acres, at the price or sum of Eighty-five thousand dollars ($85,000.00), in accordance with the terms of your proposition, as quoted above, and that as soon as this Corporation obtains possession of the property, we will at once proceed to lay off, and put in shape a Golf Links.

Very truly yours,
(signed) Allen Evans,
President Merion C.C."

TEP
So you are ignoring the Evans' letter? Here he is either saying the course has already been routed and the construction process will begin 12.10.10 OR the routing process will begin 12.10.10. I believe the former is a more logical reading. There was no reason they could not have routed the golf course prior to formerly taking ownership of the land, certainly they would had free access to it. On the other hand it would be unlikely they would have done anything physically to it - altering the ground, staking it, etc. - before taking title of it.

Tom,

Are you actually saying that it's more likely they were going to begin construction in December 1910 than beginning the routing and planning of the course on the 161 acres that Lloyd just bought for them on December 21, 1910??

You're saying this while knowing that they didn't even turn over the ground until the end of March 1911, or begin construction until late April 1911?

Huh?!?  

p.s.   The is not a single thing in the P&O letters that indicates remotely that a course existed Tom.   It would be the height of ridiculousness not to refer to the locations on the map by their designated hole location, yet Wilson had to come up with an Alpha Classification system to demarc the property as a reference point for his communications with Washington.

The P&O letters, in fact, make VERY clear that no course existed yet, other than the open land they were calling a golf course that Wilson was trying to get some turf and soil samples from various parts of the property analyzed for golf suitability.

[Tom MacWood]

p.s.   The is not a single thing in the P&O letters that indicates remotely that a course existed Tom.   It would be the height of ridiculousness not to refer to the locations on the map by their designated hole location, yet Wilson had to come up with an Alpha Classification system to demarc the property as a reference point for his communications with Washington.

The P&O letters, in fact, make VERY clear that no course existed yet, other than the open land they were calling a golf course that Wilson was trying to get some turf and soil samples from various parts of the property analyzed for golf suitability.

You haven't read them have you?

[Mike Cirba]

Tom,

Don't be so coy.   We're long since past such nonsense so if you have more evidence, or some spin on existing evidence you'd like to come forward with, please be my guest.

And please don't make it the fact that he was referring to the land they were working on as the "course".   When one considers that his alternative was "field", or "land", it makes it easy to understand why he'd try to keep P&O...agronomists who dealt with grasses...focused on his specific purposes.

[Tom MacWood]

You're saying this while knowing that they didn't even turn over the ground until the end of March 1911, or begin construction until late April 1911?

I thought you said the course was routed on April 6? If it was routed on April 6 why did they turn over ground in late March?

[Mike Cirba]

Because large clay-based portions of the property needed to have fertilizer and manure added to support any of the fine grasses needed for golf they intended to plant in either fairway, roughs, or greens.

Wilson himself talked about how much to add to fairways versus roughs, but before they could do any of that, they had to at least turn the soil, Tom.

Did you read those letters, or ever work on a farm?

[Tom MacWood]

Tom,

Don't be so coy.   We're long since past such nonsense so if you have more evidence, or some spin on existing evidence you'd like to come forward with, please be my guest.

And please don't make it the fact that he was referring to the land they were working on as the "course".   When one considers that his alternative was "field", or "land", it makes it easy to understand why he'd try to keep P&O...agronomists who dealt with grasses...focused on his specific purposes.

In his first two letters, one to Piper (2/1/1911) and one to Oakley (2/8/1911), Wilson invited both men to Merion so they could "go over the course." Its obvious the course was already staked out at that point.

[Tom MacWood]

Because large clay-based portions of the property needed to have fertilizer and manure added to support any of the fine grasses needed for golf they intended to plant in either fairway, roughs, or greens.

Wilson himself talked about how much to add to fairways versus roughs, but before they could do any of that, they had to at least turn the soil, Tom.

Did you read those letters, or ever work on a farm?

Would they treat or fertilize land not intended to be fairway, tees or greens?

[Tags:]

Tags:

[Tags:]

Tags:

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()