[JESII]

"Tom,
You have to admit, however little you like these types of analyses, that your "put and get" theory is dependent upon that "approximate road" being the hard boundary, right? I say that simply because your puts and gets, as illustrated by Mike, are putting and getting from that exact boundary."


Sully:

That's true, a swap and 3 acre addition would depend on a hard boundary for that approximate road.

Tom,

I understand what we don't know...but if thisacknowledgement of yours is agreed to by Mike, I'll have a very easy follow up question.

[TEPaul]

Sully;

Of course the configuration and curvatures of Golf House Rd that resulted from the final plan that got approved was different from that Nov 1910 land plan all the way from College Ave to Ardmore Ave. We can see that by superimosing its line on the aerial as Mike Cirba did in Post #520 and comparing it to the actual road.

But again, we just don't know if the configuration and curvatures of that yet to be built road was the same on that Nov 1910 land plan as it was on the contour survey map they were trying to route and design the course on in 1911. You will notice there were no contour lines on that Nov. 1910 illustraton. It was just an illustrative land plan even though it did have a scale on it.

I actually do have a copy of the original metes and bounds of the golf course that included the metes and bounds all the way up Golf House Rd. With all the other boundary lines around the property it enclosed 120.1 acres. Unfortunately it would be pretty complicated to try to determine what the metes and bounds may've been on that 1910 land plan up that approximate road. Surveyors don't even do metes and bounds off an illustrative land plan, they do them on the ground.

[TEPaul]

By the way, Sully, I realize it is very hard for you to imagine intelligent men buying a piece of property without first having a fairly final routing on it. One good example of that would be the property that George Crump bought in the fall of 1912, the perennial #1 course in the world---Pine Valley!  

It seems like that worked out OK in the end even though it did take him awhile to figure out what he wanted it all to be. Hell, Crump still hadn't really finaled the routing on four holes (#12-#15) when he was about four years into it!

[JESII]

That's not my premise Tom...but for sake of discussion, how would you compare the available land on each property in terms of fittin gin a golf course of 18 holes? How many acres did Crump purchase?

[Mike Cirba]

Jim,

When CB Mac first bought 200 acres for NGLA, he bought around 200 acres, but thought he'd only need about 110 of them for golf, and was going to use the rest for adjacent housing for early subscribers;










Let's see...buying more land than needed for the golf course with the ultimate remainder going back to real estate purposes...a committee of top amateur golfers spending months creating the routing and planning the holes...the "exact lines" between the golf course and real estate components to be established later once the course is routed...eschewing any professional architectural help...

Sound Familiar??    

I'll try to get to your other questions tomorrow...today got very busy.

[Mike Cirba]

I think I see what you mean..."why would they have to give back any land at all if they didn't have a working boundary to begin with?" Is that the question?

My mistake was in not elaborating on the question...what I am really curious about is why they would agree to buy 117 acres and have 4 or 5 of them committed to an area that would prove to be unusable because it was too narrow...without ever considering golf on it? This triangle was too narrow in the form on the map.

I assume they were working against a hard line with the sole reason being that a soft line/working boundary couldn't have caused the dilemna described by Francis (Jeff, if we throw out the "dilemna" as being simply a dramatic voice 40 years after the fact and we agree that the swap wasn't actually for the land 15 green and 16 tee are on, what was he truthful about?).

I then assume the initial goal for the developers would be to keep the golf course (above Ardmore Ave) around the quarry as much as possible.

Then, it seems realistic to me to "decapitate" the Johnson Farm at the Haverford College land BEFORE they ever looked for golf holes. This seems reasonable because every other property line on those old maps were straight lines...not the attractive curving line you see after the fact.


Jim,

You yourself said last night that with the area originally drawn as 100 yards wide at the base, who would have figured that they couldn't fit a green and a tee up there?.   And, they did.   Both the 15th green and the 16th tee fit within the space drawn on that Nov 1910 Land Pllan, but the left side of the 15th fairway doesn't, and the 14th green doesn't, so it's hard to imagine that they just swapped land to place that green and tee.

I'm not understanding your point about decapitating the Johnson Farm.   Why would they ever create an artificial boundary there since HDC owned that land, and then Lloyd later bought the whole farm, so to speak.   Why would they have hamstrung themselves in that way?   It seems to me that Francis was talking about the final dimensions of the land he needed when he wrote in 1950, and as you said earlier, as a guy with a mathematical mind recalled the final 130x190 dimension they ended up with there to fit everything properly.

As far as straight lines versus curved lines, the straight line property boundaries you reference were historic farm properties out in what was the boonies at that time.   In some cases, I'm betting those lines went back a century or more.

If you look at all of the lines drawn within the new real estate development for HDC, all of the major arteries are gently curilng, and I think it's pretty clear they wanted a more artistic aesthetic along Golf House Road for both course and real estate considerations.   Can you imagine how ugly it would be to have a straight line from Ardmore Avenue all the way up the top of the hill beyond the 15th green?  These guys have more understanding of artistry than that, I believe.

[TEPaul]

“Then, it seems realistic to me to "decapitate" the Johnson Farm at the Haverford College land BEFORE they ever looked for golf holes. This seems reasonable because every other property line on those old maps were straight lines...not the attractive curving line you see after the fact."

Sully:


What makes you think anyone “decapitated” any portion of the land on the Johnson Farm? How do you think they did that? There is no deed to that affect so you must think it was some kind of sub-division plan of HDC's. But the fact is the entire Johnson Farm’s deed run was to the Philadelphia and Ardmore Land Co in 1908 to Rothwell on Dec. 19, 1910 and to Horatio Gates Lloyd on Dec. 19, 1910. In those three deeds the entire 140 acre farm remained intact and passed intact by deed to those three successive owners.

Maybe you’re thinking of what the essay, “The Missing Faces of Merion” seems to have assumed or concluded about that triangle that shows in that Nov. 1920 Land Plan as the "approximate" road was somehow created by Francis’ land swap idea before Nov. 10, 1910.

Here is the extent of what that essay said that seems to assume or conclude that triangle was created by Francis’ idea before Nov. 10, 1910. The essay also seems to conclude there were some kind of deeds transfers that happened at some point, perhaps within a few weeks after Francis' idea or that Merion obtained some kind of option for it from HDC. There was never any option between HDC and MCC. The essay also says Francis' statement that the quarrymen were blasting the top off the quarry in two days must have been a mistake on Francis' part as transfering deeds would take longer than that.



“According to Tolhurst, Francis wrote:
The land was shaped like a capital “L” and it was not very difficult to get the first 13 holes into the upright portion – with the help of a little ground on the north side of Ardmore avenue – but the last five holes were another question…. The idea was this: We had some property west of the present course which did not fit in with any golf layout. Perhaps we could swap it for some good use?
Francis immediately ran the idea by H.G. Lloyd, proposing that Merion exchange land west of the routing for the land now used for the fifteenth green and sixteenth tee. Lloyd agreed, and “a few days later the quarryman had his drills up where the 16th green now is and blasted off the top of the hill so that the green could be built as it is today.”
Given Francis’ description of the timing of the quarryman’s blasting, and given that he eventually served on the Construction Committee, it has long been assumed that the “swap” occurred while Construction Committee was in the process of building the course. But the supposed land exchange must have occurred much earlier, before Merion secured the land, which was before Merion appointed Wilson and his Construction Committee.
As quoted by Tolhurst, Francis wrote that Merion gave up “land west of the present course which did not fit in with any golf layout;” land which was later “covered by fine homes along Golf House Road.” In exchange, Merion received a small section of “land about 130 yards wide by 190 yards long – the present location of the 15th green and the 16th tee.” No doubt Francis was describing the land between the present practice area and Golf House Road, a small triangle of land that perfectly matches Francis’ description. More importantly, the land was acquired while Merion was putting the finishing touches on the routing plan for the course. So the date of the supposed “swap” will allow us to determine when the final touches were being put on the initial routing plan.
Surprisingly, as one can see in the land plan above, Merion acquired this small projection of land as part of the 117-acre parcel designated “Merion Golf Course” in the Plan. Merion optioned and purchased the land for the 15th green and 16th tee as part of their option and purchase of the bulk of the golf course property. Property records confirm this. The supposed land swap must have occurred prior to mid-November 1910, when Merion obtained an option from Haverford Development Company. This was six weeks before the purchase was finalized and the Construction Committee appointed. The “swap” was not a swap at all but actually a small but significant reshaping of the large parcel Merion intended to purchase from Haverford Development Company. Before the purchase, the parties must have agreed to shave off a portion on the right side of the parcel and added the projection of land for the 15th green and 16th tee.
Francis and Lloyd had been fine-tuning the layout plan before Merion secured the land. Francis described his epiphany as having occurred while he was looking over a “map of the property.” He also noted that the land Merion gave up “did not fit at all in any golf layout.” So by this time the planning process was well underway, and the “swap” allowed them to better fit the last five holes into the plan for the routing. “It was not very difficult to get the first 13 holes into the upright portion – with the help of a little ground on the north side of Ardmore avenue – but the last five holes were another question.” The Francis land “swap” allowed them to complete the routing plan. All before November 10, 1910.”



I should point out that HDC did not even make the offer of 117 acres to MCC until Nov. 10, 1910 and MCC did not accept their offer until Nov. 15, 1911 and there were no deed transfers before or after that to break up any land on the original Johnson Farm until July 19, 1911 when Lloyd sold app. 100 acres of the original Johnson Farm to MCCGA. And so if you think that piece of the Johnson Farm next to the Haverford College property was ever “decapitated” you’d be wrong unless it was on some working flexible boundary that had something to do with the proposed golf course and the proposed residential development to the west. By why would that have been any different than some hard or flexible boundary that the "approximate" road line created on that Nov. 1910 Land Plan or perhaps on the contour survey map the Wilson Committee was using in 1911 to do numerous courses and then five different plans in 1911?

[Mike Cirba]

Jim,

I think Tom raises some very good points in his last paragraph.

I'd also ask how you think Merion ended up needing to purchase an additional net 3 acres from the 117 they originally secured if they traded all the land across the street from the clubhouse "now covered by fine home" for only that 4.8 acre 130x190 section of land?

As regards the Land Plan, do you recall who said it was 124 acres and how they determined that number?  EDIT** - Bryan Izatt indeed did that measurement back on the old thread, and mentioned he measured out to the middle of the approximate road.   You can find his technique on post #1648 on the following earlier thread;  

http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,39657.msg842851/#msg842851




Finally, although CBM originally thought he'd need only about 110 of his 200 acres for the golf course, and could use the rest to entice early subscribers with real estate offerings, he ended up using about 160 if memory serves.   I think that's because larger sections of the NGLA property were really unusable for golf in the form of wetlands, swampy areas, or impenetrable thickets than would be the case on generaly open farmland like Merion.   I'd also speculate that perhaps CBM probably underestimated the width he'd want/need for his holes, much like Merion.

Remember being told that Macdonald  and Whigham created their routing for NGLA in a day or two on horseback and then only bought precisely the land they needed for their golf course...a supposed parallel to what they did at Merino?    Well, that was a myth, and a clear misunderstanding of what actually happened, as the articles clearly show.

They were both very fastidious in their approach, taking years to locate the right site, and months to route the course and design the holes BEFORE construction, which makes the supposition that they'd create a routing for Merion in a single day completely unrealistic which once the Macdonald letter was found, showed also to be pure unsupportable supposition.

 

[TEPaul]

"Bryan Izatt indeed did that measurement back on the old thread, and mentioned he measured out to the middle of the approximate road.   Not sure that matters.."


Actually that does matter and technically Bryan Izatt was correct to measure from the middle of Golf House Road. I don't think Golf House Rd was built until 1912 or 1913 and technically Merion owns the east half of the road and the residential landowners on the west own the west half of the road. The road was "dedicated" to the township, I believe, but it might have been to the county. If Golf House Road was ever obsotleted and "undedicated" and removed theoretically the land on either side of the middle would be returned to the landowners. But of course for golf Merion uses OB on the eastern inside edge of that road "dedication."

[TEPaul]

And I should clarify that even though HDC did not make their 117 acre offer to MCC until Nov. 10, 1910 there is no question at all that Horatio Gates Lloyd had been working closely with Connell (HDC) in the months preceding the offer to develop a contiguous plan for the residential development and the proposed golf course.

[TEPaul]

And I should clarify that even though HDC did not make their 117 acre offer to MCC until Nov. 10, 1910 there is no question at all that Horatio Gates Lloyd had been working closely with Connell (HDC) in the months preceding the offer to develop a contiguous plan for the residential development and the proposed golf course. That fact is reflected in the actual offer of HDC to MCC and in MCC board meeting minutes that reflect the MCC letter of Nov. 15, 1910 that effectively accepted HDC's offer and created the "agreement" (to buy 117 acres at a specified time (in the initial offer on Dec. 1. 1910).  In those days and with people like that a real estate contract was not used. It was effectively accomplished, though, by a letter from the seller to a prospective buyer spelling out the price and terms and a response letter from the prospective buyer to the seller accepting the terms or at least an attempt to negotiate them. In the case of HDC and MCC for app 97 acres of the Johnson Farm (not totally boundary or area specific on the Johnson Farm) and the 20 acre Dallas Estate, the entire initial offer was accepted by MCC in a Nov. 15 1910 letter. The only "terms" that were changed following that was the date when the land would actually be bought and transfered by deed and who would technically buy it (not MCCGA as the initial offer and acceptance "terms" spelled out but by Horatio Gates Lloyd personally).

[Mike Cirba]

Tom,

In reviewing his post on that other thread, I'm not sure he measured at all, at least not the Land Plan.

It looks like he just took the 120 acres they eventually bought in July, lined it up with the Land Plan, calculated the puts at 6 acres, the gets at 2 acres, and figured the Land Plan had to be 124 acres to begin with.

I don't see any issues with his logic, do you?

[TEPaul]

"I don't see any issues with his logic, do you?"


Mike:

I don't see any issues with his logic, but I'm not sure I would rely all that much on the measurements. I say that because I question what it is he is actually using to measure off of----eg boundary lines specifically. In other words, if he was using the line on that Nov. 1910 land plan or even his transposing of that line onto an aerial or whatever as you have been doing on here too and against the visible reality of the actual road on those aerials we would all just have to trust that either of you actually have that transposed line from the Nov. 1910 land plan on the aerial in all the exact right places from College to Ardmore Ave (and that's a pretty long run of probalbly over a thousand yards!! ). If there are any deviations at all anywhere at all along that line one is going to get an incorrect actual measurement total number. Would you admit that and agree with it?

Unfortunately, when I made this point in all those threads a year or more ago and sort of joked about it I'm afraid I upset Bryan or pissed him off. That was not my intention----I just don't think doing it this way is anywhere near as accurate and certainly not anywhere near as reliable as an actual on-ground metes and bounds professional survey. And as I think you understand we just can't really know now how relevent that "approximate" road line was to anyone trying to do routings and designs for Merion back then---like the Wilson Committee.

And, by the way, you mentioned something about CBM to Sully in one of your last posts. I don't believe Sully subscribes to the notion that CBM had much of anything to do with routing Merion East back in 1910 or perhaps ever. At least that's what he told me in person and I think on a thread or so on here. When he carefully considered what that actual Macdonald letter said I think that convinced him and he is aware now that the author of the essay "The Missing Faces of Merion" just did not have that letter available to him when he wrote that essay.

I mean the author can argue with some of us here that he had more information back then than we did or that he had some of it first but THAT is just not the POINT here. The only real point is what he DID NOT have when he wrote that essay compared to what we have NOW----not what WE had BEFORE he wrote that essay but what we have NOW!! And on that basic point, I keep stressing that the author probably could've had all of that information we have now had he only bothered to come to us first and collaborate with US before he wrote that essay. He just didn't do that but instead decided to purposefully keep us and Merion and MCC and their archives at arms-length or to treat some of us adverserially, for whatever his reasons were then and/or are still today.

All he had, at that point, was the MCC Search Committee's reference to Macdonald's letter in a report they offered the MCC Board on July 1, 1910, and that as well made no mention at all of any routing or design activities on the part of Macdonald/Whigam or anyone else at that time. It was far more just a general opinion of the overall property and probably half of it had to do with soil and turf considerations anyway.

[TEPaul]

Mike and Sully:

Just to complete the detail of all I know of the interworkings between HDC and MCC throughout the latter half of 1910 I should explain the following to you as I think it will clearly indicate to you and hopefully others too both a few interesting things, such as primarily just how much in control Horatio Gates Lloyd was in this entire move of MCC's golf course from Haverford to Ardmore.

Lloyd had been in fairly constant negotiations with HDC's J.R. Connell throughout the summer months (from probably July and throughout August) into the early fall months (Sept and Oct and early Nov). The MCC meeting minutes actually REFLECT the fact of these negotiations and their correspondences between Connell and Lloyd.

Lloyd clearly found himself and put himself firmly on both sides of this negotiation that to some might appear to have been something of a conflict of interest. He was clearly MCC's appointed representative in those negotiations with HDC but it is also very clear and documented that Lloyd came to assume what was very close to a controlling financial or decision-making position with HDC itself and BEFORE the agreement with HDC and MCC was reached.

Lloyd was certainly able to explain and justify this dual position to MCC by merely laying before the MCC Board (of which he was a member) and by extension the membership of MCC the excellent financial deal he had provided to them (primarily an acre land price that was actually BELOW ONE HALF of the clearly determinable land prices at that time in that area. And he explained in some detail how the MCC membership could easily buy into it (via real estate purchases) by stock purchase (HDC stock) or simply residential lot purchases). Lloyd had also completely recapitalized HDC and its previous stock holders.

But I find the most interesting detail about Lloyd with his two-sided postion was that Cuyler's (MCC board member and MCC legal counsel and perhaps the most powerful railroad corporation lawyer in America at the time) formed a second class Pennsylvania corporation around MCCGA. There were the initial minimum amount of orginal stockholders and board of directors to set up a Pennsylvania corporation by law. Lloyd assumed the position of the president of this MCCGA Corporation. He also took 161 acres of HDC land into his own name rather than have it put into MCCGA's name or even to have the title deed of the Johnson Farm shifted from the Philadephia and Ardmore Land Co (a forerunner of HDC) temporarily into HDC's name before eventually passing into MCCGA's name half way through the following year.

Cuyler's wrote a letter to MCC president Allen Evans on Dec. 23, 1910 explaining that it was his advice in consultation with Lloyd that the land (161 acres) should go into Lloyd's name personally (and not even in his new capacity of MCCGA's president) for the sole purpose of Lloyd being able to move in the future boundary lines for the golf course very easily via Lloyd's sole decision and descretion.

The most interesting thing of all is that this letter of Dec. 23, 1910 from Cuyler's to MCC president Evans may look to the casual observer like Cuyler's was asking for Evan's and MCC's permission to do this. He wasn't, because the documented fact is that land had already gone into Lloyd's name by title deed five days previously on Dec. 19, 1910!!!  

[DMoriarty]

I haven't been following this thread, and I don't intend to, but I did glance at this page, and the misrepresenations and half-truths are astounding.  Here are just two:  Mike,  For the umpteenth time, Macdonald and Whigham found the land at NGLA before they purchased the property.  If you don't believe me ask Macdonald, Whigham, or even Max Behr.  They all wrote about the process.  TEPaul,  as you ought to know by now, according to Cuylers, it was Haverford Development Company who took title to that land, only in Lloyd's name.

What are there now, 100-150 pages on the issue of the Francis Landswap?     Yet the simplest explanation remains the  one which becomes clear when one reads Francis within the context of what was ongoing with the various land deals.

1.  HDC offered around 100 acres to MCC for a golf course.  This must have consisted of the entire width of the Johnson Farm property below the southern border of the College property, extended.  I say must because we know that the land above this wasn't originally on the table because Francis tells us so.  We also can surmise that the land out to the West that sits by itself was not considered because it isn't really contiguous for golf course purposes. What is left is around 100 acres, give or take a few.   The Johnson Farm property was ALL THE LAND THAT HDC (under another name) ACTUALLY OWNED AT THIS TIME.  
2.  MCC added the 21 acre Dallas Estate (not owned or controlled by HDC) thus creating an approximately 121 acre parcel for their potential golf course.
3.  According to Francis, they were having trouble fitting the final 5 holes into the section north of Ardmore, so they swapped some land on the western side of the property for the 190 x 130 yard triangle adjacent to the Haverford College Property.  
4.  Merion got its golf course, and HDC got a bit more land to develop.  

- The bit about the triangle extending up to College Road is a red herring.  Everything above the 190x130 triangle is nothing but road access.
- The bit about the triangle on the 1910 map measuring only 115 yards (per Bryan) rather than 130 yards is also a red herring.   The road was approximate and the map for illustrative purposes.   And the map illustrates that the golf course extended up into that corner next to the College.  
- The bit about the road on that map being an absolute hard border is also a red herring, for the same reason.   

[Mike Cirba]

David,

That would certainly simplify it, and I'm not at a computer right now or I'd look it up, but unless I'm losing my memory (certainly possible), I don't believe that added up either.

I seem to recall the combination of the Johnson farm south of the triangle (less the obviously unusabe portion) plus the Dallas Estate was about 125 acres, which if we add the 4.8 acres of the triangle takes us to almost 130 acres before we do any givebacks.

I'm not considering the leased 3 acres of RR land in any of this but we'd need to net out to 120, and I don't see 10 acres of givebacks out there to make it work, do you?

[DMoriarty]

Mike,

There was one section of the Johnson Farm property, that stuck out like a thumb by itself west of the rest of the land, and of was connected by a small swath of land.  Take this out and the portion above the southern border of the college, extended and you have something like 103-105 acres.  There was also a small rectangle above the Dallas estate which may not have been part of the original offer.  (I don't remember the dimensions but it is possible that this might be your mystery 3 acres)

[TEPaul]

Just for a starter or restater here's some really direct and intelligent Q and A info that seems to be called for at this point in this thread, and in these on-going discussions of Merion East's early history which I feel has become an excellent thread in the last 48+ hours or so with little to no contention and adversity amongst the participants (and I've actually discussed it with Ran Morrissett and he seems to agree, thankfully!)



To wit----and primarily from some statements on Post #589:



“1.  HDC offered around 100 acres to MCC for a golf course."


That’s true. That was the initial offer HCC made to MCC and with that offer HDC included Barker’s ‘rough sketch’ of a course and his June 10, 1910 letter describing the potential of the property by Barker that was addressed not to MCC but to Connell of HDC. The MCC “Search Committee” report of June 29, 1910 to the MCC board also included the fact that Connell, not MCC, paid Barker for his services of June 1910. HH Barker’s letter to Connell was included in the MCC “Search Committee’s” report (June 29, 1910) to the board along with a description of Macdonald’s letter of June 29, 1910 to Lloyd c/o Drexel & Co. following Macdonald/Whigam’s visit to Ardmore at the invitation of R.E. Griscom that followed HH Barker’s visit to Ardmore. Therefore Macdonald/Whigam’s visit to Ardmore must have taken place at some point between app June 11 and maybe June 27, 1910. I should reiterate here and now that following the mention and inclusion of Barker’s letter (unfortunately not his ‘rough sketch’ he referred to in his letter to Connell) that was included in both the MCC “Search Committee” July, 29, 1910 report to the board as well as in the July 1, 1910 Special Board Meeting called solely to consider the new golf ground (Ardmore) Barker’s name was never again mentioned by MCC in any of its board, committee or administrative meetings.



 “This must have consisted of the entire width of the Johnson Farm property below the southern border of the College property, extended.”  



Why must this have consisted of the entire width of the Johnson Farm property below the southern border of the (Haverford) College property extended?? I presume by that statement you must mean southeastern corner of the Haverford College property extended directly west to the boundary of the old Johnson Farm and the Davis Farm that was contiguous to the entire western boundary of the Johnson Farm (from near Ardmore Ave on the south right to College Ave on the north) on the west at what is called “The top of the L”)?



“I say must because we know that the land above this wasn't originally on the table because Francis tells us so.”



Do we REALLY know this? Who ever said that back then as you stated it above? Show us where Richard Francis or anyone else ever said that or wrote that the ENTIRE northern block of the Johnson Farm adjacent to Haverford College’s and McFadden’s properties on the east and the border on the west (above a western line from Haverford College Land to Davis Farm land) was not on the table??

We do know that the MCC “Search Committee” in its report of June 29, 1910 did for the first time say that they believed they needed 120 acres for a good golf course following HDC’s initial offer of 100 acres that was offered at the time of and via Barker’s letter and ‘rough sketch’ but we do not know if MCC or HDC was actively looking at or pursuing the 20 acre Dallas Estate at that time. What we do know via an independent newspaper account in Aug 1910, even if apparently it was in estate probate at the time) that a Mr. Freeman contracted to buy the Dallas Estate property as his estate. And we also apparently know that back in the June, July, August, Sept and most of October timeframe that property was never mentioned by either HDC or MCC as far, as I know.

Was Freeman a strawman buyer for either HDC and Connell and/or for Lloyd who was MCC’s appointed representative and who were working together on this whole rapidly accumulating HDC residential development/MCC golf course at the time? He most arguably was, and certainly considering that shortly after buying the Dallas Estate in perhaps mid-October, he optioned it to HDC to purchase.

And then on Nov 10, 1910 HDC made their initial offer to MCC with a listing of app. five separate properties (some that were specifically listed as assigned by their sellers to “buyers in blank” (in real estate parlance this is filled in at the “buyer section” of contracts and deeds as “Buyer and/or assignees” totaling 338.6 acres of which 117 acres (without a completely defined border in only one section-----eg the northern section of the Johnson Farm, known as “the top of the L.”

This we know from a depiction of the 117 acres for the golf course that we have come to refer to as “The Nov. 1910 Land Plan.”

On that Nov. 1910 Land Plan was the depiction of an “approximate” road (yet to be built) that seemed to define the western boundary for the new golf course on “the top of the L” of the old Johnson Farm.

I contend that if one factors in all the Johnson Farm land below Ardmore Ave and includes with it the 20-21 acre Dallas Estate and then factors out all the old Johnson Farm land above Ardmore Ave to the west of the old Johnson Farm western border on “The top of the L” (which includes that block north of Ardmore Ave across from #2 green and that interesting swath just above Ardmore Ave which I estimate to be app. 23-25 acres and then factor out all the land to the west of that “approximate” road and to the east of the old Johnson farm boundary at “the top of the L” on the Nov 1910 Land Plan which I estimate to be just a bit more than 20 acres (20-22) you will come up with app 117 acres!!

You try doing the measurements and the math---eg I just did and I did it previously on here over a year ago. And I contend that the actual Francis’ land swap idea and fix never came within six months of that Nov. 15, 1910 Land Plan! I reiterate that all the supplementary and supporting Merion administrative records suggest that Francis idea happened around the end of March or beginning of April 1911.  

[JESII]

"And so if you think that piece of the Johnson Farm next to the Haverford College property was ever “decapitated” you’d be wrong unless it was on some working flexible boundary that had something to do with the proposed golf course and the proposed residential development to the west. By why would that have been any different than some hard or flexible boundary that the "approximate" road line created on that Nov. 1910 Land Plan or perhaps on the contour survey map the Wilson Committee was using in 1911 to do numerous courses and then five different plans in 1911?"


Tom - because the the "approximate road" eliminates 5 acres from use on a very tight purchase anyway...no way anyone would do that.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"I'd also ask how you think Merion ended up needing to purchase an additional net 3 acres from the 117 they originally secured if they traded all the land across the street from the clubhouse "now covered by fine home" for only that 4.8 acre 130x190 section of land?"


Mike,

I think the 117 was simply the result of deciding 120 would be required in June 1910 and then working out a deal with the railroad for 3 and subtracting that from the purchase amount. That simple. Once they built out the course it measured 120 + the 3 for the railroad so they bought that. Notice that they paid retial for the new three.



What could change peoples thinking if MCC leased the land prior to Lloyd buying it?

[TEPaul]

"Tom - because the the "approximate road" eliminates 5 acres from use on a very tight purchase anyway...no way anyone would do that."



Jim:

The "approximate road" on the Nov. 15, 1910 Land Plan eliminates 5 acres on a very tight purchase? Where do you think that "approximate road" on that Nov. 15, 1910 Land Plan eliminates 5 acres?



"I think the 117 was simply the result of deciding 120 would be required in June 1910 and then working out a deal with the railroad for 3 and subtracting that from the purchase amount. That simple. Once they built out the course it measured 120 + the 3 for the railroad so they bought that. Notice that they paid retial for the new three."


OH MY!

Sully:

On July 19, 1911, MCCGA took deed to 120 acres!! The 3 acre railroad land they rented from the P&W Railroad in May 1911. Merion and us have a copy of that P&W railroad lease. Merion GC did not actually buy that 3 acres from the P&W RR until 1975 when they paid $11,000 for it.

THIS should definitely NOT be all THIS hard to understand!



"What could change peoples thinking if MCC leased the land prior to Lloyd buying it?"


Thanks for pointing that out to me today. I see it in that July 1, 1910 Special Board meeting minutes, as I have seen it for a year and a half. That was a recommendation made to the board by the MCC "Search Committee" in their June 29, 1910 report to the board and reflected in the July 1, 1910 Special Board Meeting minutes mentioned above. That suggested lease never happened and the obvious reason is because Lloyd essentially negotiated MCC (and HDC) the deal in the summer and fall of 1910 that resulted in HDC's offer of 117 acres to MCC in that letter from HDC's Secretary Nichelson to MCC's President Evans on Nov. 10, 1910 and the acceptance of same by MCC President Evans after Board approval at the Nov. 15. 1910 Board meeting.
 
 
 

[Mike Cirba]

What are there now, 100-150 pages on the issue of the Francis Landswap?     Yet the simplest explanation remains the  one which becomes clear when one reads Francis within the context of what was ongoing with the various land deals.

1.  HDC offered around 100 acres to MCC for a golf course.  This must have consisted of the entire width of the Johnson Farm property below the southern border of the College property, extended.  I say must because we know that the land above this wasn't originally on the table because Francis tells us so.  We also can surmise that the land out to the West that sits by itself was not considered because it isn't really contiguous for golf course purposes. What is left is around 100 acres, give or take a few.   The Johnson Farm property was ALL THE LAND THAT HDC (under another name) ACTUALLY OWNED AT THIS TIME.  
2.  MCC added the 21 acre Dallas Estate (not owned or controlled by HDC) thus creating an approximately 121 acre parcel for their potential golf course.
3.  According to Francis, they were having trouble fitting the final 5 holes into the section north of Ardmore, so they swapped some land on the western side of the property for the 190 x 130 yard triangle adjacent to the Haverford College Property.  
4.  Merion got its golf course, and HDC got a bit more land to develop.  

- The bit about the triangle extending up to College Road is a red herring.  Everything above the 190x130 triangle is nothing but road access.
- The bit about the triangle on the 1910 map measuring only 115 yards (per Bryan) rather than 130 yards is also a red herring.   The road was approximate and the map for illustrative purposes.   And the map illustrates that the golf course extended up into that corner next to the College.  
- The bit about the road on that map being an absolute hard border is also a red herring, for the same reason.  



David,

I went back to see how these things measured out when Bryan Izatt did the metes and bounds and these numbers do not work, which is unfortunate because they'd really simplify matters.

Here are the acreages Bryan came up with back then based on what he wrote;

Area RE:       21.1 acres        the real estate part of the Johnson Farm, north of Ardmore, West of GHR

Area JW:      19.8 acres         the area west of GHR to the western boundary of the Johnson Farm

Merion:       120.4 acres        the course land on July 26,1911

Total:          161.3 acres        

The total should be 161.157 acres and the Merion portion 120.01.  The error in my measurements are thus around 0.3% or less.

Other areas of interest:

Area F:        4.8 acres           the Francis triangle

Area D:        21.2 acres         the Dallas Estate (error almost 1%)

Area JN:       10.5 acres         the northern rectangle of the Johnson Farm including Area F


Your theory is predicated on two things that do not prove out to be true.

First, Connell didn't only offer only "100 acres".   He offered "100 acres or whatever was needed" for the golf course.   In that very same July 1910 Site Committee report the Committee reports that they'll need an estimated 120 acres, not 100.

But even just assuming Connell at one point offered 100 acres, that's not what the land parcels of the Johnson Farm measure out to.

If we take the Johnson Farm at 140 acres, and we subtract the land that was obviously going to real estate all along, the area Bryan defined as "RE", (21.1 acres) and then we remove all the Johnson Farm land above the Haverford College southern boundary, (10.5 acres as designated area JN above) because the theory hinges on them not having any of the triangle land prior to Francis' revelation, we're left with 108.5 acres, not the 100 acres upon which the theory rests.

Add in the 21.2 acres of the Dallas Estate and we're now up to 129.7, which is higher than any of the Merion documents ever mention was considered for the golf course.  

Considering then that your theory says they swapped for the nearly 5 (4.8 actually) acres of the triangle, they be at around 134.5 acres, at which point to get back down to the 120.1 acres they actually purchased, they would have had to have given up 14.4 acres somewhere in give backs, as where would they have had all of that land to begin with, under any transaction-related document?

The actual numbers simply do not support the idea that Francis swapped for the 4.8 acre triangle of land north of the Haverford College southern boundary, unless Merion at some point had nearly 130 acres under their control, which the transaction documents and internal records don't support.


btw...none of these calculations include the 3 acres of RR land they later leased....trying to keep this strictly to the securing and purchasing of HDC land as it's complicated enough!

[JESII]

I didn't mean to bring up the other thread, I meant to cut and paste the image you're referencing there...sorry!

[Mike Cirba]

Jim,

Thanks...that's helpful.

Can you see anywhere they may have had 14.5 acres to trade back to acquire the 4.8 acres of the triangle for the math to work?

[JESII]

Mike,

Doesn't it make sense that they would have agreed to buy an undetermined 117 acres of that 130 acres you've just described?

Most of the points we disagree on (in my view) seem to be due to you using that "approximate road" as a real boundary...needless to say, I think that's a mistake. Doesn't make my theory true on its own, but it does explain where you and I go off track...

[JESII]

Tom,

Most of it is not hard to understand...

but when Evans approves a lease of the land the Special Committee on Golf Grounds recommends, with affirmation from Macdonald and Wigham that it'll make for good golf turf etc...on July 1, 1910 and you tell me that means nothing...when my whole theory is based on these guys having access to the grounds in the summer and fall of 1910...I guess you'll have to explain a little better why it means nothing.

For starters - why is it impossible that the club, through Lloyd or otherwise, leased the land prior to deciding to buy it outright through Lloyd? Is it simply because you haven't found that paperwork yet? Or is there some fundamental train of logic that I'm missing? I'm serious.

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