[JESII]

I don't think CBM produced a routing.

[JESII]

...but don't you think the time has come to consider what was probably the reality----ie there just was no contact between him and MCC about the course between June 1910 and March 1911 or perhaps even April 6, 1911. At least that is most certainly what the MCC contemporaneous record (which most certainly seems to be complete) seems to be suggest.

Maybe the time has come to consider what that really did and does mean.

I htink the Merion guys laid out the course INFORMALLY  prior to the creation of that Nov. 15 map being drawn.

Informally is emphasized because I think they knew where all of the hole corridors were going to be but didn't the lengths and widths figured out yet.

[Mike Cirba]

Jim,

They would have had to have been insane or mad men to have routed 13 holes with the idea that the 5 remaining finishing holes on their championshp course could somehow fit into the remaining area I have outlined in blue, especially with the quarry smack dab in the middle of it.

They would have had to have been amazingly shortsighted to artificially decapitate the Johnson Farm property that Lloyd bought to bring under MCC control at the south end of the Haverford College property, a mere 130 yards from the quarry, especially after M&W had told them it would be a neat golf feature.   They weren't and they didn't.

The only border in question was where the western edge of the golf course on that Johnson Farm was going to be located along the HDC real estate holdings, and the curving road, which was not close at all in either dimension or shaping to what exists today, was drawn for aesthetic purposes, much like the parallel road was drawn inside the HDC land on the Nov 1910 Land Plan.

The black lines show the northeastern and eastern portions of the Johnson Farm that Lloyd acquired.   Notice how short-sighted they would have had to have been to decapitate it as the literal interpretation of the Francis' Land Swap would have us believe;

[TEPaul]

"I don't think CBM produced a routing."


There is not a single shred of evidence that he did anything like that at any time in 1910. There is not a single shred of actual evidence that he did anything like that at NGLA in March 1911. However, there is some vague evidence that he and Whigam may've made some suggestions to the alteration of the routing of one plan on the day of April 6, 1911 even if there is nothing remotely specific about that. To me it is at least likely that he and Whigam may've tweaked their #12 and #13 that day or even their #10-#13 that day. The reason I say that is that they very well may've had something on a plan like they do now particularly with #13 (without of course the added length on #11 and #12).

I say that because it certainly has always occured to me that for some reason they gave up the second half of #12 and the original #13 within ten years and they still own that land today.

Why was that? Is that just a total coincidence or did they just want to go back to something they had themselves before CBM (and Whigam) changed it on April 6, 1911?

That most certainly is a possiblity when one considers they have always had that land---eg the 3 acre formerly P&W land.

[TEPaul]

"I htink the Merion guys laid out the course INFORMALLY  prior to the creation of that Nov. 15 map being drawn.

Informally is emphasized because I think they knew where all of the hole corridors were going to be but didn't the lengths and widths figured out yet."


Sully:

I know you think that, and you've always thought it but unfortunately you have nothing at all---zero---to actually and factually point to to support it. I don't think that is what happened in 1910 and I have a whole lot of actual and factual material from MCC to support it.

[Mike Cirba]

I think this map is perhaps the most illustrative;

The black line shows the original dimensions of the Johnson Farm (less the skinny area just above.  Ardmore Avenue going west into HDC land).   The red line shows the course that was built.   The purple was the 360 plus acres Lloyd bought for HDC.

The blue line is the decapitation line that would had to have been short-sightedly true if a literal interpretation of Francis is factual.

There is no logical reason they would have cut themselves off like that when they had enough land to go about 265 yards further north and well over 150 yards wide to work with on property that Lloyd had already purchased for them..

[JESII]

Mike,

Your first picture didn't show up for me...is there a program I need to download?

As to your point, it's certainly possible that they didn't think once about the golf holes from June 1910 until January 1911...I just don't believe it.

Another key point as we dig into my thesis is that this was a real estate deal driving a golf course purchase. Remember the discount they were getting the land for. Based on that, and the fact that this particular 400 acres provided more interesting golf land AND less desireable housing land in the areas around this portion of the property implies to me that they knew right from the beginning they had to tackle the quarry and put their minds to it as soon as they agreed to enter the whole transaction.

With that understanding, and a general pointing around the property up through #13 by CBM, they knew on July 1 that they had to tackle the quarry one way or another.

I think it's much more rational that at this point they were considering the land in rectangular shapes along the formal borders although a professional could advise otherwise). If my memory serves Bryan Izatt measured the area from the south border of the current driving range (McFadden Farm?) straight across to the border of the Johnson Farm and came up with a similar total acreage to what was drawn on that November map.

To suggest that they were looking at that triangle all along but not figuring how to get holes into it until the 11th hour epiphany by Francis seems far-fetched. Remember, Francis said that when they/he thought of the swap everything fell into place with those last 5...so I have to wonder how far off they could have been if they were looking at a 60 yard wide area for the green and tee as opposed to the 80 yard wide area your theory suggests.

Merion has tons of green and tee complexes that take up less width than 60 yards...

[Mike Cirba]

Jim,

Please try the pics again...I think I did something wrong.    I'll read and respond to your other questions after.

But the short answer is that it wasn't that the green and tee didn't fit...you've solved your own riddle!

I believe that it was that because of the quarry, and the need for a alternate route around 16, that suddenly the 14th green, and most of the left side of the 15th hole no longer fit.

[JESII]

Mike,

You've suggested that before, and it might be the case, I just think that would have been realized well after the initial routing enabled them to carve off a specific area to buy.


The pictures came through now and are really illustrative...and helpful.

The old 13th green to the 14th tee was over 200 yards and through the clubhouse...wouldn't it have made more sense for them to do what they did on just about every other hole and look for somewhere to go with 14 from right near the 13th green? Obviously this led to a dead end, but that's the point.

"I don't think that is what happened in 1910 and I have a whole lot of actual and factual material from MCC to support it."

Tom,

Do you think the words "layout" and "plans" in the comments about March - April 1911 mean routings and nothing else?

[Mike Cirba]

Jim,

I think plans and layouts and course were all synonymous.

I also think /know Macdonald reviewed the plans with them on the ground on March 6th, 1911 and approved one of them.

I think it was very important to the Committee that they got CBM's blessing, not only for their own peace of mind, but also to go forward to the membership with.

The term "approve", I think would suggest the dictionary meaning that comes up first when I google it, which is "To consider right or good; think or speak favorably of."

Of course, this all had to go to the Board of Governors later that month for actual formal approval, but having his recommendation and him also saying that they'd have the best seven final holes of any INLAND course CBM was familiar with had to help, given his weight and prominence in the game.

[TEPaul]

"Tom,
Do you think the words "layout" and "plans" in the comments about March - April 1911 mean routings and nothing else?"


Yes I do. And I think by a specific "layout" or "Plan" or "routing" it is meant (and was) 18 holes that have tees, fairways and greens in basically a specific place. That would essentially incorporate directions and lengths of holes in specific places on an 18 hole, layout, plan or routing.

[JESII]

Mike,

Why would "layous" and "plans" be plural while "course" was singular if they were synonymous?

When was the Board meeting that approved the plan?

Also, I think you mean April 6th as opposed to March, no?

[Mike Cirba]

Jim,

They visited CBM at NGLA around March 6th, 1911.

CBM came to visit at Merion April 6th, 1911...thanks for pointing it out...I fixed the error.

The Board Meeting was later that month, around the 17th or so, if memory serves.

I think they wanted to get CBM's backing prior to going to the Board and selling it to the membership.

I think it was the arcane way they spoke that talked about there being one "course", with many possible layouts.

[TEPaul]

In the MCC board and committee meeting minutes and reports and supplemental correspondences they used both the words "courses" and "course."

[JESII]

In the MCC board and committee meeting minutes and reports and supplemental correspondences they used both the words "courses" and "course."

Tom,

What do you think an explanation for that could be? Do you agree with Mike that it was an arcane way of writing?

[TEPaul]

The meeting at NGLA technically could have lasted as late as March 11, as Wilson mentioned to Oakley in a letter dated March 12, 1911 that he had just returned from NGLA.

[Mike Cirba]

Jim,

I think perhaps they were narrowing it down to a few basic iterations at that point, where prior they perhaps had courses bearing much less similarity.    That's a guess, of course.

CBM may have said something like...this one is interesting...why don't you do something like this and play with a few routings of holes around the quarry and clubhouse.

Speculation, but it would make some sense.

[TEPaul]

"Tom,
What do you think an explanation for that could be? Do you agree with Mike that it was an arcane way of writing?"




Personally, I think the words were used to sometimes mean multiple routings (when "courses" was used as a plural) and perhaps as a single routing if used in the singular as well as to essentially reference the entire property when used in the singular when he used it that way in his first letter to Oakley when presumably nothing had been done yet by the committee----eg later they would reference that they had laid out numerous courses before going to NGLA.

It was generally Wilson who wrote like that. He said himself a number of times he did not consider himself to be a very good writer.

[JESII]

Tom,

I think it's possible that the use of "courses" (plural) indicating what they had prior to going to NGAL could easily mean everything prior...including all the way back to July 1910. Wasn't this Wilsons first note to the Board? That would be a quick and easy way for him to bring them up to speed on all their efforts to date?

To use "course" for the whole property would be strange at the same time he's using it for a specific routing, don't you think?

[TEPaul]

"Another key point as we dig into my thesis is that this was a real estate deal driving a golf course purchase. Remember the discount they were getting the land for. Based on that, and the fact that this particular 400 acres provided more interesting golf land AND less desireable housing land in the areas around this portion of the property implies to me that they knew right from the beginning they had to tackle the quarry and put their minds to it as soon as they agreed to enter the whole transaction."


Sully:

You are right about that because going back perhaps just before or around the time probably Barker came to Ardmore and certainly by the time Macdonald/Whigam did MCC understood full well (it is actually in the MCC records) the vast majority of the land they were being offered was in fact all Johnson Farm land and nothing else. At that point (June 1910) the Dallas Estate was not part of what HDC was offering.

But this is not meant to indicate that the East course property used the entire Johnson Farm because they never did. There may've been up to 30 acres or more they never used that went to the HDC residential development to the west.

However, in Dec. 1910 Horatio Gates Lloyd bought the entire Johnson Farm and the entire Dallas Estate. He bought 161 acres! And for a number of reasons it is really central, in my opinion, to know not only where it all was but also WHEN he bought it.

This goes right to some of what Francis said in that article in 1950! However, with Horatio Gates Lloyd in the equation as he was as of Dec. 1910 owning the entire Johnson Farm (140) and another 20+ (Dallas Estate) (total=161) which the club could see coming and had agreed to 117 by November 1910 with the understanding they could shift boundaries or even add some of Lloyd's additional land (which they did) it does not seem to me there was any big need to route a golf course, quarry or no quarry, or finalize a routing before they actually did, which was on April 19, 1911.

[TEPaul]

Now to get to the Francis article of 1950 and to begin from the article's beginning to reanalyze very carefully exactly what it actually said about the creation of Merion and Francis' part in it.

He starts out the article with:

“The Committee in charge of laying out and building the course was composed of Mess’rs Horatio Gates Lloyd, Rodman E. Griscom, Hugh I. Wilson and Dr. and Dr. Harry Toulmin. I was added to it, probably because I could read drawings, make them, run a transit, level and tape.”




1. What jumps out at me right in that first paragraph is that he says: “laying out AND  building the course..” If the Wilson committee was only charged with constructing or building the course to someone else’s plan, as Moriarty and MacWood are suggesting, I fail to see why Francis would have mentioned more than just building in that sentence. And furthermore we do know from that Wilson Report to the April 19, 1911 that the committee mentioned the laying out of numerous courses long before any BUILDING or CONSTRUCTING took place----a number of months before building or constructing actually. So, since that it a given how could Francis have been using the term "laying out" synonymously with "building?"

2. In the second part of that sentence he says he was ADDED to the committee that was charged with laying out and building the course. That most certainly does not seem to me like he had been out there for months laying out a course with Lloyd and Macdonald as that essay “The Missing Faces of Merion” concludes and certainly not without the rest of that committee which we are quite sure was not even appointed until January 1911.. Had he done it for months before Griscom, Toulmin and particularly the chairman, Hugh I. Wilson became involved, again as that essay, "The Missing Faces of Merion" concludes, why would he have NOT at least mentioned that (or why would no one else have ever mentioned it?), particularly since he goes on to say that other than his ability to draw, read drawing and run a transit, level and tape, his ONLY REAL CONTRIBUTION was to come up with that 15th green/16th tee land swap with Lloyd?


Of course there is much more that jumps out at me from Francis' article that leads me to believe that the land swap idea happened much later than that essay, "The Missing Faces of Merion" concludes that it did and very likely right around six months later that all the collected actual MCC records and evidence seems to strongly suggest. Ill get to the rest of that article later

[Mike Cirba]

Tom,

I think those are very good insights.   Obviously, the "laying out" separated from the "building" is something that is critical and noted, but I'd add to that Francis' later point that he added one piece to the "lay out", which clearly was a step in the design phase.

Francis also mentions their thinking the road would make a good hazard, and somewhat self-effacingly talks about some of their screw-ups, but it's clear that these were THEIR screwups, and not based on someone else's design.

Now, I'm sure someone is going to claim that by "laying out" that they were out there staking posts (to someone else's design) on the property, and then constructing (to someone else's design) to differentiate the terms, but I don't think they'd do so very convincingly because they'd then have to answer the question; Why take 5 extremely busy, very successful men who were 5 of the 6 lowest handicap golfers of the few hundred at the Merion club and have them out pounding stakes in the field and then constructing the course?  


But, I think the really valuable insight you had is the "added" piece, that Francis mentioned.

He may have meant the term to mean "at the inception" of the Committee, and he may have meant that he was literally "added" later to a standing committee, but there is no way he would have used the word "added" if he was already involved in the design process prior to the committee's creation.   Not a chance

Jim,

Wilson's comments (as reported for the Committee by Lesley) could refer back all the way to July 1910, but I don't think so, simply because he was reporting for the Committee, which didn't form until January 1911.   Now, he may have been referring to some informal arrangement of some of the more interested members such as Wilson and the others, and I'm not able to prove that they didn't start their routing process back then, but I don't think so, simply because I think Wilson would have mentioned it in his article for P&O where he says he came into the process in 1911.

EDIT*** Wilson doesn't say he first came into the process in 1911, although that has been represented as such.   Instead, he simply refers to the Committee being formed in 1911.

This of course begs the simple question; Why would the Merion Board make Hugh Wilson chairman of a committee on a subject of which he supposedly had no prior involvement? 

[JESII]

I would suggest your strict reading of these guys not doing anything on the grounds prior to the formal establishment of the committee in January 1911 is the equivalent of David's strict formal readin of the reasons the club had to move from Haverford...when a little gray is probably correct on both counts.

You were both in full agreement that there were other unstated reasons for moving from Haverford but there is no proof because that circular didn't need that sort of detail...this committee being formed in January 1911 is simply a point in time with virtually no real correlation to the time these guys began working on the problem.

For what it's worth, I have always thought those different examples of the committee members taking a possesive description of the problem was the greatest evidence of all that CBM was merely a friendly distant advisor to their efforts.

I hope both sides can see my position for what it is.

[Mike Cirba]

Jim,

If you believe that the curving road on the golf course side of this Land Plan is that way because of an existing routing, and the purposeful placing of the holes where they fit best, then how do you explain the almost identical curving road on the Real Estate side of the Land Plan?

Isn't it much more likely that because the exact land for the golf course had not yet been determined on the the only flexible boundary, the western edge of the Johnson Farm, that the surveyors simply drew a aesthetically-curving "Approximate" Road up through the Johnson Farm property to it's northern border well above the Haverford College southern boundary, with the exact placement to be determined later, after the holes were routed?

In fact, although that Land Plan is purported to be representative of the 117 acres secured in the circular letter sent to members in November, 1910, it actually measured out at 124 when Bryan Izatt did the math.    That tells me that they just generally gave them some room to maneuver, with us both agreeing that they didn't want to buy any more acreage than they needed to for maximizing real estate and profits, and reducing costs,.  

But, even with that, the proposed artificial boundary didn't exactly work, they needed more width in spots (likely because of the quarry), and traded that big strip of unused land across from the clubhouse to get the land they needed, but still needed to buy 120 at the end of the day, as well as lease 3 acres of Railroad land (which is not indicated as part of the golf course yet on the Land Plan).  

[JESII]

Mike,

I disagree with David's comment that the circular dated 11/15/1910 needed to accurately portray the full reason for the move (financial) because of some fiduciary responsibility...but I do suspect there is some liability exposure to putting a "Proposed Golf Course" / Real Estate Project Map out into circulation and then having the golf course somewhere else altogether.

I guess I'm wondering how much latitude the golf course creators would have had after the map was drawn up...we agree that the "approximate road" was a soft border, but if the whole idea from Merion's perspective was to build a world class course why would they agree to buy land that offered basically no flexibility? After all, these were the Captains of Industry...why would Connell be able to push them around?

I think it's more likely that the west road was drawn to match Golf House Rd. after they informally established the western bondary for the golf course.

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