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DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Desmond Tolhurst's account
« Reply #1350 on: September 04, 2010, 08:21:57 PM »
Phil, whether your intention or not, you certainly started and egged on a thread challenging NGLA attributions, and you gave Cirba yet another forum to muck up everyone's understanding of that history based on his misunderstanding of the articles posted.   Whatever game you were playing, it was pretty irresponsible and no doubt did damage to the common understanding of the accurate history of NGLA.

As for Merion, I never challenged their design attribution either.  There are plenty of good reasons to credit Wilson with the design, including the fact that he laid it out, was involved with CBM in planning it, was responsible for the placement of many of the fairway hazards and finishing touches, and directed many of the early changes including the changes due to Ardmore Ave. in the early 1920's and the implimentation of the bunker project which was apparently not finished until after his death.  

I did challenge whether Wilson was mainly responsible for the initial routing and hole concepts, but surely today's attribution is based on more than that.  Merion, through their self-appointed internal historian and non-member mouthpiece, were informed of my intentions prior to my essay coming out, and rather than take it to Merion or suggest that I take it to Merion, they demanded that I post it immediately for all to read.  Plus, they had both already expressed,  in no uncertain terms, that Merion wanted nothing to do with me or my research, and given their reaction since, this is still the case.  

In fact, TEPaul once emailed me to tell me that the heads of certain prominent committees at Merion were aware of my research and were quite upset by it and wanted it to stop.  The message was that they wanted nothing to do with me, and that they never would.    Wayne's messages to me confirmed this.  I realize now that TEPaul was likely lying, but at the time it seemed probable enough, given Wayne's similar comments.  

Fortunately for you, you don't have to deal with the likes of TEPaul or Wayne Morrison, people who insert themselves into the middle of the process and insist that all communications go through them.  Even my private messages to the club have been immediately forwarded to these two jokers, which in my mind is an incredibly disrespectful act of what I thought was supposed to be a classy club. Given the reaction of all involved since my essay came out, the advice I received to NOT go to Merion was definitely sound.  

As for the Merion information which has come out on these threads, I wish you were joking. The source is MERION, particularly Wayne Morrison of Merion.   As recently as last week he was going over Merion's supposedly private information with posters to try and convince them to support his attenuated reading. He is supplying SELECT information knowing and expecting that they will post it here.  There is nothing private about this information, except that Wayne doesn't want me to have it, and has apparently convinced those at Merion to keep me from it.  
« Last Edit: September 04, 2010, 08:23:53 PM by DMoriarty »
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Phil_the_Author

Re: Desmond Tolhurst's account
« Reply #1351 on: September 04, 2010, 08:51:03 PM »
deleted
« Last Edit: September 04, 2010, 11:09:04 PM by Philip Young »

TEPaul

Re: Desmond Tolhurst's account
« Reply #1352 on: September 04, 2010, 10:10:08 PM »
"We have seen plenty of MCC documents on this site, you've posted some yourself. Obviously privacy is not the issue...so what is the reason why some documents are shared and others are concealed?"


Tom MacWood:

I'd say for you and Moriarty just the fact that neither one of you has established a research relationship with Merion yet. Both of you obviously expect others to just provide it all for you both on here. When we do you two ignore it, misinterpret it, rationalize it away or just deny it. Apparently your agendas are more important to you than the accuracy of the club's golf architectural history.

David Moriarty:

Your tone in the last few hours towards Merion, one of its members and friends indicates you must feel you have nothing left to lose. I know it must be humiliating for you to see your essay and your defense of it received the way it has been by Merion and pretty much everyone else but you should remember you wrote it and you went about presenting and irrationally defending it on here the way you did and you should learn to take the responsibility for the way it all was received and you were received. Apparently you're just the type of person who instinctively blames his mistakes and failures on anyone but himself. It's a sad saga you and MacWood foisted on this website about Merion for so long. If your thesis or theory or whatever you call it about Merion's architectural history had even some credibilty you may've been taken seriously but that was never the case. Why don't you just get over it and on to something else? Perhaps you could collaborate with Tom MacWood on developing the ultimate list of public courses in America before 1930 or 1936 that were better than Cobbs Creek.
« Last Edit: September 04, 2010, 10:42:55 PM by TEPaul »

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Desmond Tolhurst's account
« Reply #1353 on: September 04, 2010, 11:37:59 PM »
TEP
It wasn't through a lack of effort on my part. What did Mike Cirba do that I didn't do?

Mike Cirba

Re: Desmond Tolhurst's account
« Reply #1354 on: September 04, 2010, 11:55:35 PM »
Guys,

All I've ever wanted here is to to get to the truth of some of the open questions where very little information was available and wish we could have had this exercise without all the acrimony, backbiting, and provincial horseshit.

That being said, I think there were enough mistakes all of us made collectively to turn this into a circus I'm pretty sure none of us are happy to be associated with. 

I do think over the past few months I've been extremely open in sharing everything and anything I'm aware of that might bear on these questions, and although some might question my interpretations of the evidence, I feel confident that no one can honestly fault me for being deceptive or concealing.

I find it a bit funny, I have to say, that so many here seem concerned about who should get credit for any of these historical findings.   Does anyone actually think we're going to get anything other than perhaps a Mike Young Nerd of the Year prize for what we've individually discovered in any of these matters? 

In any case, I have personal feelings about everyone on this thread ,some very good and some not so good, but honestly guys..if you feel I might know something or have information, just ask me.   You may not like my opinion, or judgment, but I do hope we can get to a better place here collectively some day.

I don't like a lot of the things you Tom and David did and said along the way to this point, but I'm also not totally unsympathetic to some of what you faced, so if you're all willing to take a bit of a different tack and attitude on some of these matters, I am as well.

This bitterness gets really tiring and doesn't really reflect how I feel about either of you on a personal level...only on the personas we each reflect in the corners we've all backed each other into over time here.

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Desmond Tolhurst's account
« Reply #1355 on: September 05, 2010, 12:10:18 AM »
No, have you and Tom tried to make a mockery of their existing history onthis website yet?

Mike
Is that the issue? Is that why some documents are shared and others are restricted to a select few? Which of my historical essays made a mockery of existing history?

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Desmond Tolhurst's account
« Reply #1356 on: September 05, 2010, 01:02:08 AM »
Tom Paul, you are delusional.  And you and Wayne have always received as much respect from me as your behavior warrants.

Mike Cirba, for you to say that I have made a mockery of Merion's history is beyond the pale, especially considering the mess you've made of it and continue to make of it.   For you to say the same thing about Tom MacWood, that is even worse.  As usual, your hair trigger defensiveness and misplaced righteous indignation paints you as the irrational partisan you are.
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Mike Cirba

Re: Desmond Tolhurst's account
« Reply #1357 on: September 05, 2010, 07:38:26 AM »
David,

"Romantic fairy tale"?

"Local myths"??

You guys have tried to make a mockery of both Merion's history and its historians, as well as anyone from back then like Alan Wilson and William Evans who told accounts you didn't like.

How can you guys possibly deny that?

We've all crossed lines here in passionate defense of our positions but your feigned innocence rings hollow.
« Last Edit: September 05, 2010, 11:03:01 PM by MCirba »

Mike Cirba

Re: Desmond Tolhurst's account
« Reply #1358 on: September 05, 2010, 07:40:47 AM »
That should have been "guys".

Damn blackberry.

Mike Cirba

Re: Desmond Tolhurst's account
« Reply #1359 on: September 05, 2010, 07:46:11 AM »
Tom MacWood.

I've always enjoyed your essays, whether I agree or not.

Your DG banter however could use some of the same reflection and restraint.

TEPaul

Re: Desmond Tolhurst's account
« Reply #1360 on: September 05, 2010, 07:49:08 AM »
"Tom Paul, you are delusional."


OK, David Moriarty, then I'm delusional, in your opinion. Big Deal!!



"And you and Wayne have always received as much respect from me as your behavior warrants."


Quite some time ago Wayne and I stopped caring about your respect completely. With the way you've acted on this website, and particularly towards Merion, why would we care about your respect? I can't think of anyone of any consequence who does care about your respect or cares about anything you think about them or their club's golf architecture. If anyone took you or what you think seriously it may be different but I can't see anyone does.

Such is life; you did it to yourself.


TEPaul

Re: Desmond Tolhurst's account
« Reply #1361 on: September 05, 2010, 07:52:27 AM »
"Speaking of source material, the Evans letter references at least two lines of source material that have never been brought forward, and which would go along ways toward cleaning all this up.   Now why do you suppose that is?"



David Moriarty:

What source material are you referring to?  And I'm not sure I understand your question?   
 
I already asked you this question once and it seems you ignored it but perhaps I missed your response and if so I'm sorry about that.

It is actually about the subject of golf course architecture and the history of a significant club. Are you able to answer those questions?

TEPaul

Re: Desmond Tolhurst's account
« Reply #1362 on: September 05, 2010, 07:56:11 AM »
"TEP
It wasn't through a lack of effort on my part."


Tom MacWood:

What do you mean? What wasn't through lack of effort on your part?



"What did Mike Cirba do that I didn't do?"


I'm not sure what you mean by that either. What has Mike Cirba done?

Mike Cirba

Re: Desmond Tolhurst's account
« Reply #1363 on: September 05, 2010, 08:05:00 AM »
Tom,

I think Tom is asking why me, or Joe, or Jim have seen the minutes and he hasn't.

I think the commonality is that we went to the source, although I did try to share with them everything I know and even had Sully confirm the validity of what I wrote but I guess they don't believe him either.

TEPaul

Re: Desmond Tolhurst's account
« Reply #1364 on: September 05, 2010, 08:43:40 AM »
"Tom,
I think Tom is asking why me, or Joe, or Jim have seen the minutes and he hasn't."



Mike:

I see. Well, in that case, I would say to Tom MacWood's question ("What did Mike Cirba do, that I didn't do?") that he didn't establish a research relationship with Merion or with those who actually have something to do with Merion's historical archives and the management and analysis of it as you and Joe and Jim Sullivan have done to varying degrees.

I'm not sure Tom MacWood and David Moriarty look at the way Merion's archive process works in the same way. I don't know what Tom MacWood thinks about that but David Moriarty has expressed on here how he thinks it works or should work. He expressed it on here again in the last 24 hours and it was certainly not very pleasant. He claimed Merion's architectural historian was trying to block him, that another who works with Merion's historians who he called 'their non-member mouthpiece' was also trying to block him and he finished off his description of the process and the club by describing Merion as not the 'class club' he thought it was.

What he said is not the way it actually works. Apparently you three have a better idea of how it works and if you show an interest and want to discuss some material who do you go to for it? Who do you call or email? Apparently Tom MacWood isn't aware of who you go to for it and if he was he may not be willing to do it for various reasons. But he can answer that for himself.

These two guys can talk on here about how they think it works or how they think it ought to work but if they want it to work for them they'll just have to deal with it the same way it works for people who've dealt with Merion and follow their research process. There is nothing exclusionary or undemocratic about it at all----it's just a matter of following their process. That was explained to Moriarty and MacWood and as far as I know neither one of them followed through on that process.

It is my understanding that Moriarty and MacWood either called or emailed Merion and MCC and asked them to send them some archive material they were interested in. Neither club does that; it is just not their process. They don't do that for anyone except some individuals over the years who've had a long and established research and writing history with them. If anyone wants to study their archives they pretty much need to establish an appointment and go there.

So, apparently Moriarty and MacWood still don't understand Merion's research process or they think they deserve to have an exception made to it in their case, for some reason.
« Last Edit: September 05, 2010, 09:01:50 AM by TEPaul »

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Desmond Tolhurst's account
« Reply #1365 on: September 05, 2010, 09:56:38 AM »
TEP
I didn't ask you what I did or didn't do, I know what I did and I have chain of emails between John Capers, Wayne Morrison, the president of Merion and myself to prove it.

I asked you what did Mike Cirba do to gain access to those internal records?

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Desmond Tolhurst's account
« Reply #1366 on: September 05, 2010, 10:06:27 AM »
Tom MacWood.

I've always enjoyed your essays, whether I agree or not.

Your DG banter however could use some of the same reflection and restraint.

I appreciate the advice. Would you suggest I conduct myself more like you or TEP?

Mike Cirba

Re: Desmond Tolhurst's account
« Reply #1367 on: September 05, 2010, 10:18:24 AM »
Tom,

I don't want to argue with you guys on a personal level...I'm sick of it and there's been enough poor behavior from everyone here, me included.


Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Desmond Tolhurst's account
« Reply #1368 on: September 05, 2010, 10:30:43 AM »
No, have you and Tom tried to make a mockery of their existing history onthis website yet?

Mike
I'll ask you again, when have I made a mockery of golf architecture history?


Mike Cirba

Re: Desmond Tolhurst's account
« Reply #1369 on: September 05, 2010, 10:46:48 AM »
I didn't say golf arch history Tom...I said Merion's history and historians, as witnessed by this thread...you said the club's history reads like fiction, among other things.

TEPaul

Re: Desmond Tolhurst's account
« Reply #1370 on: September 05, 2010, 11:16:25 AM »
"TEP
I didn't ask you what I did or didn't do, I know what I did and I have chain of emails between John Capers, Wayne Morrison, the president of Merion and myself to prove it.

I asked you what did Mike Cirba do to gain access to those internal records?"


Tom MacWood:

Sorry, I thought you'd understand what I said. Cirba, Bausch and Sullivan have established a working research relationship with Merion and its historians and those they work with to a pretty good degree.

And I know there're a series of emails with Capers, Morrison and you but you don't have any emails from the president of the club; you only cced him in your emails to Capers and Morrison. Why did you do that? It's definite no one at Merion asked you to do something like that so why did you do it? Were you trying to embarrass Morrison or somethng? Things like that certainly don't help your cause if you want a research relationship with any club. It's things like that that really lack commonsense on your part when you try to deal with some of these clubs. I'm aware of you dealing with two other significant clubs and for some reason you seem to do something that's not very smart each time. Something that always seems to smack of arrogance or lack of consideration for some at the club. If you'd like some advice on that feel free to call some of us and we'd be more than happy to advize you.
 
 
« Last Edit: September 05, 2010, 11:20:13 AM by TEPaul »

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Desmond Tolhurst's account
« Reply #1371 on: September 05, 2010, 11:47:05 PM »
I didn't say golf arch history Tom...I said Merion's history and historians, as witnessed by this thread...you said the club's history reads like fiction, among other things.

This coming from a guy who had Hugh Wilson traveling through Argentina before designing Merion. And if I'm not mistaken who also roasted Marrucci and the entire Merion membership at the time the course was being 'restored'...thankfully they have short memories, especially if that person has shown he will go to the ends of the earth to defend the Wilson mythology.

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Desmond Tolhurst's account
« Reply #1372 on: September 05, 2010, 11:53:24 PM »

Tom MacWood:

Sorry, I thought you'd understand what I said. Cirba, Bausch and Sullivan have established a working research relationship with Merion and its historians and those they work with to a pretty good degree.

And I know there're a series of emails with Capers, Morrison and you but you don't have any emails from the president of the club; you only cced him in your emails to Capers and Morrison. Why did you do that? It's definite no one at Merion asked you to do something like that so why did you do it? Were you trying to embarrass Morrison or somethng? Things like that certainly don't help your cause if you want a research relationship with any club. It's things like that that really lack commonsense on your part when you try to deal with some of these clubs. I'm aware of you dealing with two other significant clubs and for some reason you seem to do something that's not very smart each time. Something that always seems to smack of arrogance or lack of consideration for some at the club. If you'd like some advice on that feel free to call some of us and we'd be more than happy to advize you.
 

TEP
Did Dave Schmidt establish a working research relationship with Merion prior to you sharing the documents with him?

Jim Sulllivan
Prior to seeing the documents in question what action or actions did you take to establish a working research relationship with Merion.

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Desmond Tolhurst's account
« Reply #1373 on: September 06, 2010, 08:45:10 AM »

And I know there're a series of emails with Capers, Morrison and you but you don't have any emails from the president of the club; you only cced him in your emails to Capers and Morrison.
 
 

TEP
How would you know what Merion emails I've sent and to whom; you certainly were not copied on them?

TEPaul

Re: Desmond Tolhurst's account
« Reply #1374 on: September 06, 2010, 09:46:59 AM »
Tom MacWood:

Do you really want me to answer that question on here? Is this something you want to discuss on this DG; and if so why would that be?
« Last Edit: September 06, 2010, 09:49:16 AM by TEPaul »

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