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Mike Cirba

Re: Desmond Tolhurst's account
« Reply #1125 on: August 30, 2010, 12:02:14 PM »
Jim,

You have to view this in term of the timing, as well as what was recommended to be done when.

In March, 1911, all Wilson did was turn over the soil on the entire property less 25 acres that had been deemed as good enough as is, with the application of a little lime over the top of it. (which became holes 10, 11, & 12).

P&O had recommended that the entire property get a good liming, and that's the first step of what they did in the spring.   They were also instructed to turn over the land a few times before seed planting, which was deemed advisable for the fall of that year.   Of course, by then, that would have been after the tees, fairways, greens, et.al. were located and finalized.

P&O also recommended the application of manure, but that was to be done in conjunction with the fall seeding.

Following is the first reply from P&O describing what they are willing to help with, and what they need from Wilson;



Here is Wilson describing what type of samples he's sending..."small samples of typical soils", clearly from different parts of the property and marked alphabetically, as such.  

« Last Edit: August 30, 2010, 12:03:54 PM by MCirba »

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Desmond Tolhurst's account
« Reply #1126 on: August 30, 2010, 12:12:18 PM »
Thanks Mike...those are helpful...but where are the alphabetical references?


Don't you think Oakley's middle paragraph is clearly describing advising on fairway and green grass as requested by Wilson as opposed to any and all grass for the property?

Mike Cirba

Re: Desmond Tolhurst's account
« Reply #1127 on: August 30, 2010, 12:15:45 PM »
Jim,

Here are the responses and recommendations from P&O based on the soil samples.   The lime I guess they got for free..paid only the cost for shipping;

Let's start with Wilson's sending the samples;




Followed by P&O's responses;









« Last Edit: August 30, 2010, 12:19:10 PM by MCirba »

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Desmond Tolhurst's account
« Reply #1128 on: August 30, 2010, 12:29:06 PM »
Thanks Mike...there surely is no limit on the number of alpha-sections they may have used, is there...not by those letters anyway...

Mike Cirba

Re: Desmond Tolhurst's account
« Reply #1129 on: August 30, 2010, 12:57:30 PM »
Jim,

I'm not sure I understand your question, but I don't see any limitations imposed by P&O on the number of samples they were willing to look at, if that makes sense...they simply seemed to want to see some representative soil and grass samples, presumably from different parts of the course.

At one time Tom MacWood tried to make much of the phrase "the portions of the course covered in grass", as if that meant pre-routed fairways and greens, but I think an accurate reading would indicate that P&O are talking simply about either those areas of the course covered in grass generally (about half by Wilson's estimate), or those areas that they didn't think needed plowing, as they were good enough for golf on their own.   Would you agree?

I'd also reiterate that I'm not saying that some early version of the routing couldn't have been on the map sent by Wilson to P&O, but I find nothing in the P&O letters that leads me to believe there was, particularly Wilson's lack of mention of any particular features of any proposed golf course in any of these early correspondence.
« Last Edit: August 30, 2010, 01:00:51 PM by MCirba »

TEPaul

Re: Desmond Tolhurst's account
« Reply #1130 on: August 30, 2010, 12:59:00 PM »
Sully:

I looked for that post describing the lettered sections but couldn't find it. Wilson sent Oakley a blueprint of the property in March that had letter sections on it so they could match the lettered labels on the soil and turf samples sent to Washington to particular parts of the property.

I would think if they actually had a routing done or decided upon at that point they would've just sent that to Washington and just matched the particular hole numbers to the commensurate numbers on the soil samples and Oakley could've seen where on the property they came from that way. But they didn't do it that way because according to that Wilson Report they were still in the process of doing a number of different routings and such at that point.

It's all pretty logical and apparent and completely squares with the Merion East contemporaneous administrative records and with the  history as told in their history books even if a few on here, including yourself, seem to be having such a hard time understanding it.

When someone tries to just push some fairly significant event in the timeline progression of that time and its project back about six months before it actually and logically happened with no actual evidence to suggest such a thing other than blatant speculation via the misinterpretation of the meaning of someone's words in part of an article, eventually it's going to be shown as a mistake and I'd say (as does Merion) this Francis fix and swap idea Moriarty has tried to push back about six months to before Nov. 10, 1910 has definitely now been shown to be a mistake.

He and MacWood can just cling to that mistaken notion if they want to (actually MacWood only subscribes to the notion that it did not happen after Dec 10, 1910 that was apparently the date Barker was taking a train between New York and Georgia and hopped off briefly and routed Merion East for MCC) that includes asking me to prove a negative but I think most everyone now recognizes that tact as fallacious logic and reasoning. I believe Moriarty understands that being asked to prove a negative is completely illogical but I'm not too sure, at this point, that MacWood actually does understand it or why one should not try to do that.  
« Last Edit: August 30, 2010, 01:06:10 PM by TEPaul »

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Desmond Tolhurst's account
« Reply #1131 on: August 30, 2010, 01:03:41 PM »
Mike,

All I was saying is that "A" through "G" was clearly NOT the limit of the total number of sections they were discussing. It could have gone to "Q" for all we know, right?


The question I'd really like you to answer though is after your posting of Oakley's first response (2/7 I think)...

"Don't you think Oakley's middle paragraph is clearly describing advising on fairway and green grass as requested by Wilson as opposed to any and all grass for the property? "

He said...'I think we will be able to give you good suggestions regarding the seed to be used on the fairgreens, probably also on the putting greens, and some advice regarding seeding and fertilizing'.

This was in response to Wilson asking about "short growing grasses".

Your initial proposal was that "short growing grasses" meant the rough as well as fairways and greens.

Do Oakley's words persuade you otherwise?

Mike Cirba

Re: Desmond Tolhurst's account
« Reply #1132 on: August 30, 2010, 01:09:54 PM »
Jim,

I'm not sure yet.   I seem to recall them talking about seeding the roughs...or at least determining the proper amount of manure in the roughs (which would imply seeding) in a subsequent communications, but let me see what I can dig up.

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Desmond Tolhurst's account
« Reply #1133 on: August 30, 2010, 01:12:10 PM »
Tom,

I understand what you see as fact, and I understand what you disagree with me on...what I don't understand is why you think the timing of the Francis Swap has "definitely now been shown to be a mistake".

What happened in the last couple weeks to show anything for certain?

TEPaul

Re: Desmond Tolhurst's account
« Reply #1134 on: August 30, 2010, 01:20:52 PM »
And I'll tell you another thing I'm quite certain of and that is that Wilson apparently sent Oakley two contour suvey maps (blueprints); the first apparently with nothing on it and the second with lettered sections on it. From the correspondence it seems that they were never returned to Merion and so we still hope we can find at least one of them somewhere in Washington such as the National Archives.

And I believe if those two contour survey map blueprints have a surveyor's date and a measurable line for Golf House Road on them then this charade about the Francis idea being before Nov. 10, 1910 will be over and done with once and for all.

Mike Cirba

Re: Desmond Tolhurst's account
« Reply #1135 on: August 30, 2010, 01:21:36 PM »
Jim,

The whole property was seeded, including the roughs (just at different strengths), as illustrated by these May correspondence;







TEPaul

Re: Desmond Tolhurst's account
« Reply #1136 on: August 30, 2010, 01:27:31 PM »
"I'm not sure yet.   I seem to recall them talking about seeding the roughs...or at least determining the proper amount of manure in the roughs (which would imply seeding) in a subsequent communications, but let me see what I can dig up."


Mike:

Let me help you out there. What is it you want to know about those agronomy letters and why? I've been reading them for about seven years now and practically have some of them memorized.

By the way, the other day Wayne essentially proved through a good contact in Washington that the USGA set of those agronomy letters is apparently not complete. The remainder has apparently recently been found in the National Archives.

Mike Cirba

Re: Desmond Tolhurst's account
« Reply #1137 on: August 30, 2010, 01:32:36 PM »
Tom,

Thanks, I think I found the one I'm looking for right now but certainly would be keenly interested in what you and Wayne find subsequently.

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Desmond Tolhurst's account
« Reply #1138 on: August 30, 2010, 01:47:18 PM »
Mike,

I'm not asking if they ever seeded the rough...I asked if Wilson's advice request for "short growing grasses" meant anything. You said he was referring to all grasses...that seemed funny to me. Oakley responded as I would expect...by saying yes, we can help with seed suggestions for fairways and greens. Period!

You will not be physically harmed by occassionally looking at the most reasonable possibility as opposed to constantly arguing against what I suggest...

Mike Cirba

Re: Desmond Tolhurst's account
« Reply #1139 on: August 30, 2010, 01:52:52 PM »
Jim,

I don't think they used separate grasses for the fairways and roughs as is done today, at least in the case of what I read in those letters for Merion.  

I think when P&O spoke of types of grasses for the fair greens and putting greens there was an assumption that the fair greens mix would be included the roughs, only left to grow longer..

Not trying to argue at all and only stating what I sincerely read into the letters.

Having worked with Macdonald prior, I'm sure the whole issue of best grasses for fairways and greens would have come up so I don't see P&O's statement related to something he saw on a map, but something he knew had to happen on golf courses generally.
« Last Edit: August 30, 2010, 02:13:27 PM by MCirba »

TEPaul

Re: Desmond Tolhurst's account
« Reply #1140 on: August 30, 2010, 01:57:59 PM »
Why are you two now arguing about grasses? What could you possibly think that has to do with the subject of this thread---which by the way has dramatically shifted a number of times since it began?

It began as a discussion of whether there are meaningful mistakes in Desmond Tolhurst's history book and I feel, as does Merion, that that subject has long been dealt with and resolved!

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Desmond Tolhurst's account
« Reply #1141 on: August 30, 2010, 02:46:59 PM »
Tom,

The subject of this thread diverted from its title 30 pages ago. I think it's in the site's best interests to keep the Merion business to a limited number of threads...so we all know where the fight is...


Mike and I are arguing about grasses as a natural by-product of discussing the letters Wilson and Oakley sent each other.



Do you think it's inconsistent for Wilson to use "Course" to mean the entire property on Feb. 1 and to mean a specific routing just 2 or 3 months later?


TEPaul

Re: Desmond Tolhurst's account
« Reply #1142 on: August 30, 2010, 03:29:25 PM »
"Do you think it's inconsistent for Wilson to use "Course" to mean the entire property on Feb. 1 and to mean a specific routing just 2 or 3 months later?"


Not really. I'm not even sure what you mean by saying he referred to a specific routing as the "Course" 2 or 3 months later. And I am also mindful that Wilson very rarely if ever spoke about actual architecture with Piper and Oakley, at least not in those first few early years. He and his brother Alan didn't really get into things like that with Piper and Oakley until the early 1920s when they were all involved in creating the USGA Green Section.


DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Desmond Tolhurst's account
« Reply #1143 on: August 30, 2010, 03:50:50 PM »
Jim,

Their argument about the letters, when combined with their argument about when the course was supposedly routed, makes no sense.  Look at the dates of the letters.    The blueprint showing locations was sent after the NGLA meeting.
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Desmond Tolhurst's account
« Reply #1144 on: August 30, 2010, 03:59:25 PM »
I'm really having trouble seeing how anyone can say anything is proof of an event from any piece of information posted to date.

I don't know what any of it proves.

TEPaul

Re: Desmond Tolhurst's account
« Reply #1145 on: August 30, 2010, 04:07:01 PM »
Jim:

Well then, I guess the first question should be what exactly is it---eg what EVENT do you think you're trying to PROVE with those agronomy letters that talk about a couple of blueprints sent to Washington in Feb and March 1911 for agronomic reasons??  

Are you trying to use them somehow to still prove when you think Francis' fix/land swap idea took place?   ;)
« Last Edit: August 30, 2010, 04:19:39 PM by TEPaul »

Mike Cirba

Re: Desmond Tolhurst's account
« Reply #1146 on: August 30, 2010, 04:12:48 PM »
Wilson held up sending the samples because he hoped that Oakley "would be up before this and have delayed sending you samples of the soil on that account.", as Wilson wrote on March 13th, 1911.

The timing had nothing to do with their visit to Macdonald, although Wilson wrote that he'd "just returned from a couple of days spent with Macdonald at the National golf course.  I certainly enjoyed having an opportunity of going over the course and seeing his experiments with the different grasses."

Not at a computer but will be happy to post later.

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Desmond Tolhurst's account
« Reply #1147 on: August 30, 2010, 04:13:32 PM »
Tom,

You're the only one on here that has clearly said your opinion of events proves those events happened. David has come close, but you're passing your interpretation of alot of this stuff off as fact...when it's frequently up for debate.

Regarding those letters and accompanying blueprints...how do you think he would have subdivided the property into his alphabetic system?

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Desmond Tolhurst's account
« Reply #1148 on: August 30, 2010, 04:24:34 PM »
Jim,  just so we are clear, everything I've said is based on the facts as I understand them, and unfortunately on a number of representations about unverified information.  Every single bit of it is subject to change if more facts are brought forward or even if a better analysis is brought forward.    I don't know anything for sure, but some things are much more certain than others.

That said, I don't think I'll continue on with this gerbil wheel of a conversation about the land.   If you ever get back to talking about Desmond Tolhurst's account let me know.  Funny how that got sidetracked right before we got to the business about Wilson and CBM, isn't it?
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

TEPaul

Re: Desmond Tolhurst's account
« Reply #1149 on: August 30, 2010, 04:34:39 PM »
"Tom,
You're the only one on here that has clearly said your opinion of events proves those events happened. David has come close, but you're passing your interpretation of alot of this stuff off as fact...when it's frequently up for debate."



Well, then Sully, if I said that I think the series of recorded evidence we have PROVES something like the Francis fix/swap happened in 1911 or in March/April of 1911 and it categorically PROVES it could not possibly have happened before Nov. 10, 1910 then just let me be the first to amend that and belay that idea, right here and right NOW!!  OK? ;)

I am definitely NOT and never have been into this bullshit agenda of David Moriarty's that any of this stuff has to or does categorically PROVE any event such as would be expected in some court of law. That's Moriarty's schitck that he uses to counter everyone else's arguments but yet totally fails to apply to himself and his own arguments and even when called on to do it and asked to do that.

And what the hell kind of PROOF is he looking for in the Merion East history of 1910 and 1911? Is he trying to apply the legal principle of "PROOf beyond a reasonable doubt" as in a criminal trial or is he only asking that it should be the civil law principle of "Proof via a Preponderence of Evidence?"

Again, my feeling is both legal principles applied to this subject of the history of Merion are Bullshit----eg Moriarty's Bullshit!

I just feel all the records from MCC and elsewhere that some of us have available to us and have considered carefully over the last year just very strongly indicate that Merion's recorded history is accurate and that Francis fix very likely happened in 1911 and most likely towards the end of March, beginning of April 1911, and almost definitely not before Nov. 10, 1910 given the preponderance of accumulated material evidence throughout this entire year or so from June/July 1910 to July 1911. That is what historians and historical analysts do---eg they look for what is the most likely indication of what happened in the past and they present the reasons they feel that way. Historians are not encumbered to work under some legal principle of discovery or proof that must rise to someting like "Beyond a reasonable doubt" or a "Preponderance of evidence" even though Moriarty has never been able to understand that or admit it.

His thesis or hypothesis or theory or premise or assumption or conclusion or whatever he calls it today that is the theme of his essay and his on-going position on here was simply something that he wrote that varied from Merion's architectual history that was put on here for people to consider and as of now I do not know a single person other than himself and perhaps MacWood that believes it and endorses it.

Most all I've spoken with about it view it as a massive excercise in truly fallacious logic and reasoning, and the ones who know it all best do understand and in fairness to him, he tried to do it with far, far less material evidence than was actually available and that we have now.




"Regarding those letters and accompanying blueprints...how do you think he would have subdivided the property into his alphabetic system?"



I have no idea about that. Wilson, Oakley or anyone else I'm aware of never spoke to that point at all, as far as I know. My only point about the lettered sections on that blueprint was that if there had been numbered holes on that blueprint, in my opinion, they probably would've used their numbers as references to the labled turf and soil samples that were sent from Merion to Washington rather than lettered sections.
« Last Edit: August 30, 2010, 04:51:02 PM by TEPaul »

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