Playing conditions at Hidden Creek. Why don't others get it ?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Despite the high temperatures, Hidden Creek is playing fast and firm from tee to green.

The playing conditions are close to optimal.

The quality of the turf is excellent.

Interestingly enough, when the greens are fast and FIRM, chips/pitches had better be calculated to include good run.

The sound the ball makes when landing on the green tells you that you'd better plan and execute properly or suffer the consequences.

It's a shame more golfers aren't exposed to such high quality playing conditions.

Yellowish/Brownish/Greenish fairways and greens are a good thing, as is brownish rough.

Two of the fellows playing were 18 and 17 handicaps.

They enjoyed the run their ball experienced, off the tee and on their other shots.

Hidden Creek should be exhibit "A" and required reading/playing for Green Chairman, Committee members,  Boards and Presidents.

[George Pazin]

Sadly, most golfers view these types of conditions as unfair and over the top - i.e. "tricked up" -  unfairly penalizing the better golfer while helping the lesser golfer.

[jonathan_becker]

Pat,

I couldn't agree more.

My home course used to play exactly as you just stated.  However, about 8 years ago, the greens committee decided that it needed a million dollar irrigation upgrade that has turned the course into a permanent sponge.  Everyone says "Oh, but the course is so green and lush!"  It just makes me sick.  I just get tired of pumping a drive off the tee and having to play a mud ball into each green. 

[Matt_Ward]

Pat:

Not to rain on your parade -- I do agree with the idea that such conditions are really great but most superintendents prefer to keep turf soft or more towards the slow side. In many cases, the club hierarchy pushes for it because anything other than verdant green is seen as a commentary on how poorly the turf is being handled when the exactly the opposite is the case.

In many cases, superintendents don't want the tension that goes with stressing grass to play as firm and fast as you advocate. A number of them have told me that it's easier from a PR and practical side to keep it soft and green rather than go through the headache in convincing people otherwise who have been so long conditioned to believe what they believe. At the end of the day the superintendent is there to please members and in this economy many don't want to rock the boat. I can certainly understand their position while personally not agreeing with it.

[jonathan_becker]

Matt,

Good points noted.

My club has some guys that go to the Masters every year and (going along with your first paragraph) want their course  perfectly green because AN is perfectly green.   

[George Freeman]

Sadly, most golfers view these types of conditions as unfair and over the top - i.e. "tricked up" -  unfairly penalizing the better golfer while helping the lesser golfer.

I would say it would be viewed by most golfers as "baked out" and poorly maintained vs tricked up, which is probably even worse for a public course's image when John Doe is forking out hard earned cash to play on a "cheaply" maintained course...

It's a shame....

[Craig Sweet]

The quality of the turf is excellent.

Yellowish/Brownish/Greenish fairways and greens are a good thing, as is brownish rough.

Really Patrick? How do you know this?  Are you a turf expert? Are you an agronomist? 

Sorry...I couldn't resist!

[C. Squier]

Pat, I agree.  Everything else is just an exuse 

I had the good fortune to visit Hidden Creek a few weeks ago and by the time we got to the 2nd green, we just knew we were in for a treat.  Both in design and conditioning.  Had to break out a few shots from the bag of tricks that I just don't get to use as often as I'd like.

[Mike Sweeney]

From a friend today who belongs to a rock solid Top 100 course after a trip to Cape Arundel in Maine:

Cape Arundel really is sweet.  I can only imagine that MYTOP100 looked something like it in the old days.  A softer, gentler place, that’s what my wife felt.  She thought it was approachable, particularly for a woman’s game.  She knows MYTOP100 is better, but sees it as a tough monster that breaks her, while this was a very playable walk in the park for her.  And she pushed a trolley for the first time.  She loved that.  Walking without an blabbering caddie...................

_____________________________________

I will unfortunately miss Eastward Ho! this summer due to family logistics, but it sits right in the same sweet spot.

Mr Moore, we have an empty couch during the week for a trip to Mink Meadows!

[Michael Dugger]

Nice post, Ward

No *&$^ Captain Obvious.

It's Pat's whole point.

Greens committees.....memberships.......John Q Public need to suck it up and try playing golf over fast and firm.

With time they will come to learn it's a more fun game that way!

[Kenny Baer]

Playing golf on courses that are fast and firm; particularly when the fairways are running about 5 and up makes golf so much more fun.  I know the public loves their courses green and lush but I would love to know what could be done to inform the of the "truth" .

Questions for Pat.
Do the members of Hidden Creek like their course that way?
If so then why..what makes them different...better players, a more astute audience....?
What can be done to educate the public so that they understand if a course browns up that doesn't mean the super is doing a bad job?
What kind of grass are the fairways at HC, bent?

I find it hard to believe that it is more cost efficent to keep a golf course green and lush then not quite as green and fast; it seems to me that you can let the weather determine how a course plays without any additional cost.

I recently played Atlanta Athletic Club Highlands and they have diamond zoysia in their fairways and AAC Riverside they have zyion zoysia (don't know if that is how it is spellled), it was awesome, at Highlands they were running about 7 and at Riverside they were running about 6.  You really had to think about every single shot or else you would run through the fairway.  I know if our Super let our course even have the slightest tint of brown in our bermuda fairways the membership would have a conneption.

Question for whoever would know....in the southeast can you keep bermuda fairways firm and fast in the summer...or really anytime of year?  Ours at Atlanta CC are so lush right now, granted we have been getting quite a bit of rain but even with a low screaming driver the ball is not running more than 10-15 yds.

[Mike Sweeney]

Questions for Pat.
Do the members of Hidden Creek like their course that way?

IN CASE PAT IS WATCHING THE SUNSET, I THINK SO.

If so then why..what makes them different...better players, a more astute audience....?

IT STARTS AT THE TOP WITH ROGER THE OWNER (MEMBER OF PINE VALLEY), IAN THE GM/PRO WHO GREW UP AT ROYAL PORTRUSH AND THEN THE SUPER.

What can be done to educate the public so that they understand if a course browns up that doesn't mean the super is doing a bad job?

PULL OUT THE POOL, PULL OUT THE TENNIS COURTS, PULL OUT THE FANCY CLUBHOUSE AND YOU END UP WITH A GOLF CLUB. MATT MAY LOVE PLAINFIELD, BUT IT IS A COUNTRY CLUB. I PLAY HIDDEN CREEK A BUNCH WITH MY TWO BOYS AND AT TIMES THEY WOULD LOVE TO HAVE A POOL NEXT TO THE LODGE FOR A LATE NIGHT SWIM BUT IT IS A GOLF CLUB AND I HOPE IT STAYS THAT WAY.

[Mike Worth]

Playing golf on courses that are fast and firm; particularly when the fairways are running about 5 and up makes golf so much more fun.  I know the public loves their courses green and lush but I would love to know what could be done to inform the of the "truth" .

Questions for Pat.
Do the members of Hidden Creek like their course that way?
If so then why..what makes them different...better players, a more astute audience....?
What can be done to educate the public so that they understand if a course browns up that doesn't mean the super is doing a bad job?
What kind of grass are the fairways at HC, bent?

I find it hard to believe that it is more cost efficent to keep a golf course green and lush then not quite as green and fast; it seems to me that you can let the weather determine how a course plays without any additional cost.

I recently played Atlanta Athletic Club Highlands and they have diamond zoysia in their fairways and AAC Riverside they have zyion zoysia (don't know if that is how it is spellled), it was awesome, at Highlands they were running about 7 and at Riverside they were running about 6.  You really had to think about every single shot or else you would run through the fairway.  I know if our Super let our course even have the slightest tint of brown in our bermuda fairways the membership would have a conneption.

Question for whoever would know....in the southeast can you keep bermuda fairways firm and fast in the summer...or really anytime of year?  Ours at Atlanta CC are so lush right now, granted we have been getting quite a bit of rain but even with a low screaming driver the ball is not running more than 10-15 yds.

We very much like the conditions firm and fast, the way they are now.  The membership is very well educated.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat:

Not to rain on your parade -- I do agree with the idea that such conditions are really great but most superintendents prefer to keep turf soft or more towards the slow side.

In many cases, the club hierarchy pushes for it because anything other than verdant green is seen as a commentary on how poorly the turf is being handled when the exactly the opposite is the case.

In many cases, superintendents don't want the tension that goes with stressing grass to play as firm and fast as you advocate. A number of them have told me that it's easier from a PR and practical side to keep it soft and green rather than go through the headache in convincing people otherwise who have been so long conditioned to believe what they believe. At the end of the day the superintendent is there to please members and in this economy many don't want to rock the boat. I can certainly understand their position while personally not agreeing with it.

Matt,

There's no question that politics plays a significant role and that superintendents have been placed in a defensive position.

It's a matter of form versus substance.

Golf is a game played upon a specially prepared field.
Too many people/golfers have opted for visual rather than physical effects.

"GREEN" camoflages a lot of ills.

"GREEN" is what viewers see every week while watching PGA Tour events.

But, golf courses aren't there to be viewed, they're there to be played upon.

And the golf course at Hidden Creek is a near perfect field of play.

[Eric_Terhorst]

Pat,

I enjoy playing a public course called Shepherd's Crook near Chicago and the WI-IL border because it's a) a good Kieth Foster design, and b) during the summer regularly sports the conditions you're describing.  Last year at this time it was purple and brown around the edges, with the ball positively BOUNDING on every shot.  I commented to management that I thought the course was in perfect condition, and was surprised to learn that's exactly what they're going for with the maintenance practices, knowing that they have a "Links-style" course on a windy site and that's how it was designed to be maintained and played.  The person I talked to said they get the predictable complaints that balls won't hold the greens blah blah balh, but they maintain the fast-firm policy.  Thank goodness.  I believe the course is heavily utilized, and with 10-minute tee times in addition to the maintenance practices, management ought to get the public golf course equivalent of an Oscar.  It is in the Top 100 of Golfweek's Muni list.

This year the course has just now reached the same condition.  Last weekend I hit 4-iron, 5-iron into a downwind 380-yd par 4, and had to chip on from behind the green.  That 5-iron bounced at least 15 feet high and carried 15-20 yards beyond the landing.    I could have hit 5-iron 7iron.  I recently discovered that, as fun as the course is from the 6700-yd tees, it's even more fun from the 6300-yd tees, because you have to think more about how the ball is going to roll out. 

Meanwhile, there's a course nearby called Thunderhawk, a RTJ 2 design, that is almost 100% target golf, soggy on most days, more highly rated on Golfweek's Muni list, and more highly regarded even by some commentators here.  Why don't others get it ? It's unanswerable.

Why do some prefer vodka in a martini? 

[Patrick_Mucci]

Playing golf on courses that are fast and firm; particularly when the fairways are running about 5 and up makes golf so much more fun.  I know the public loves their courses green and lush but I would love to know what could be done to inform the of the "truth" .

Questions for Pat.
Do the members of Hidden Creek like their course that way?

The ones I've spoken to love it.

If so then why..what makes them different...better players, a more astute audience....?

I think it starts with Roger Hansen.
He gets it.
Like Ken Bakst at Friar's Head I believe Roger has created a culture of golf at Hidden Creek that craves those conditions.
If members don't like those conditions they can go to plenty of other golf courses that will cater to wet, lush, green conditions.

But, the reason that I feel that the members AND guests love it, is because it's FUN to play golf under those conditions.

Just tonight a fellow I sponsored several weeks ago, sent me an email telling me how great the golf course was, and how much fun he and another fellow had when they played it.  He also asked my why I didn't talk more about Hidden Creek before he played it.
I told him that I'd prefer for him to see and judge it for himself, without my imput.

The guests I recently hosted all raved about how fair but challenging the golf course was.
They especially liked the ROLL their ball benefited from.

What can be done to educate the public so that they understand if a course browns up that doesn't mean the super is doing a bad job?


That's the toughest question of all.

A good start would be for the commentators to be critical of green, lush conditions, while praising fast, firm, yellowish/brownish/greenish conditions.


What kind of grass are the fairways at HC, bent?

I'm not sure that they used a monostrain on the fairways, I know they didn't on the greens.
I'll try to find out for you.
Ian could probably answer that question quicker than I could.

I find it hard to believe that it is more cost efficent to keep a golf course green and lush then not quite as green and fast; it seems to me that you can let the weather determine how a course plays without any additional cost.



The key cost may be in the transition from lush, green to fast and firm.

Once fast and firm is established, I think a watchful eye may be the most important element.
Certainly, specific areas will need more attention, more TLC, but, once established, I'm pretty sure the water costs, fertilizer and pesticide costs would be reduced.

I recently played Atlanta Athletic Club Highlands and they have diamond zoysia in their fairways and AAC Riverside they have zyion zoysia (don't know if that is how it is spellled), it was awesome, at Highlands they were running about 7 and at Riverside they were running about 6.  You really had to think about every single shot or else you would run through the fairway.  I know if our Super let our course even have the slightest tint of brown in our bermuda fairways the membership would have a conneption.

And therein lies the problem, the perception that lush green is good and brownish/yellowish/greenish is bad.

That is THE problem.

Question for whoever would know....in the southeast can you keep bermuda fairways firm and fast in the summer...or really anytime of year? 
Ours at Atlanta CC are so lush right now, granted we have been getting quite a bit of rain but even with a low screaming driver the ball is not running more than 10-15 yds.

Golf courses are unique, soil wise and micro climate wise.

Given the direction and the funds, I think most superintendents could transition their courses to F&F understanding that Mother Nature must be served.

[Bill Brightly]

Pat,

I couldn't agree more.

My home course used to play exactly as you just stated.  However, about 8 years ago, the greens committee decided that it needed a million dollar irrigation upgrade that has turned the course into a permanent sponge.  Everyone says "Oh, but the course is so green and lush!"  It just makes me sick.  I just get tired of pumping a drive off the tee and having to play a mud ball into each green. 

Jonathan,

Have you tried talking to the superintendent and the Grounds Chairman? Talk to them about the trend of "fast and firm" and see what type of reaction you get. It is your course too, and I bet you there are many members who would support your point of view. It takes time and effort to educate a membership, but it can be done.

IMO, a multi-million dollar irrigation system can be used to PROMOTE faster and firmer conditions IF the super wants. Here's why: with an old and slow system that may take all night to water, so the super may err on the side of caution if he fears losing the course in extreme heat conditions. So with a 50/50 chance of rain, the super may water all night and THEN also get rain the next day...With a new system, he can see if it rains that night, knowing he can put a lot of water on the course in a hurry if he needs to.

In addition, a new system may allow him to just water roughs and not the fairways, while old systems my not allow this; you either water all or nothing.

For all you fast and firm guys who moan about over watering, I say get yourself on the Grounds Committee, learn all you can, develop a good relationship with the super, and then begin to influence the decision-making process.

[Patrick_Mucci]

There's another facet of F&F conditions at Hidden Creek that I like.

One of the things I LOVE about golf in the UK is the feeding nature of the fairways.
Balls are directed INTO the bunkers and trouble.

Here, in the U.S. clubs have created buffers of rough to prevent balls from entering the bunkers.

Those buffers were mostly MEMBERSHIP created, probably in the name of fairness.

The right side bunker on the second hole at Hidden Creek is a perfect example of a fairway feeding a bunker.
I hit a good drive, a little more right than I wanted.
The other players said, "great drive".
I said, "nope, I'm fuked, it's in the bunker."
They said, "it's in the right side of the fairway"
I said, "nope, I'm fuked, it's in the bunker"

When we got to the DZ my ball wasn't in the fairway, it had been fed 10-15 yards into the right side bunker.
While I only had 100 or so yards, I was now on the defensive instead of being on the offensive.

I love that feature.
I love fairway contours and bunker surrounds that feed and collect golf balls, especially running golf balls.

I love features that deflect marginal shots instead of having them plug close to the green.

We need more Hidden Creeks.

[Kenny Baer]

Thanks for the responses, great info.

[Peter Ferlicca]

Its pretty funny, the owner of the private country club I work at in Colorado is coming next week, and we have to green up the course for him.  He doesn't know a thing about golf, he won't even play when he comes, he will just drive around in a cart on the cart paths and look at how green it is.  Our course is in perfect fast and firm conditions right now but our super now has to water the crap out of the golf course to green up all the brown firm spots.  IT SUCKS.  Its all to please a owner that doesn't know a thing about golf.

[Adam Clayman]

Has anyone addressed the question of Why?

Primarily an American issue, the reasons why are not that hard to figure. What does a lazy thinker want? They want instant gratification. F&F delays the outcome of their shot, and is not always commensurate with how purely they struck the ball. The humility needed to accept the outcome is not in the typical nature of those who have experienced the "me" generation and all the subsequent residual affects from that self-consuming ideology.

[K. Krahenbuhl]

Has anyone addressed the question of Why?

Primarily an American issue, the reasons why are not that hard to figure. What does a lazy thinker want? They want instant gratification. F&F delays the outcome of their shot, and is not always commensurate with how purely they struck the ball. The humility needed to accept the outcome is not in the typical nature of those who have experienced the "me" generation and all the subsequent residual affects from that self-consuming ideology.

But wouldn't the "me" generation enjoy a miss hit shot that ends up quite nice as is often the case on firmer/fast courses?

[JESII]

Adam,

I question the "primarily American issue" part of that...the couple of Canadian courses I have played were lush and green, the courses around London may have the heather and gorse look, but the playing areas are green...

I think it begins with the challenge of presenting a good surface that is also dry...the weaknesses come to the top in that environment and it's a battle any superintendent would need to be well armed before entering...political support at the top of the list of required ammunition...

[jonathan_becker]

Bill Brightly,

I'm completely with you on your points.  However, since I'm only 29 (a jr member), I don't have any voting rights.  Furthermore, the greens committee likes the spongy fws because they don't have to hit down and actually compress the golf ball to get it airborne.  They know me and when I have expressed my opinion, they look at me like I'm speaking spanish.  Most of the other members like the sponge as well.  I'm definitely in the minority.

In regards to the super, I used to work for him during college summers, and he knows what he's doing (his father was the super at Scioto and he worked there for years) and he shares my viewpoint.  But, my club is currently struggling and the super pretty much does what he's told for fear of losing his job.  It's not that we won't have a super, it's that Ohio State has the school turf department in my town and the club could easily hire some young talent at highly reduced salaries.

[Adam Clayman]

Sully, Sadly American influence has spread, even to the Auld Sod. But, you are right, it is human nature that has ruined the proper playing surfaces. It's just my observation that it all stems from the lazy American mindset. Please don't tell me you want to argue about that?

Once again, none of this addresses the why.

Wild Horse is the perfect example of a course that was intelligently designed to play firm. After all the complaints about not being able to hold the greens, the super was placed under a lot of pressure to soften it. By doing so, the course has cornered the local market and become profitable.

Profitability is not a justification for ignoring the design intent, but, it is an easy answer to those who continue to not want to think beyond how far am I to the flag.

Males need their egos stroked as well.