[Jim Colton]

I received an e-mail from a non-GCAer with some feedback on a top 100 course.  One aspect that this guy did not enjoy about the course was that it had, in his opinion, too many half-par holes.  "I think there was overemphasis placed on '1/2 pars' throughout the course, which [he] seems to love because they work so well in a match-play scenario.  I like 1/2 pars as well, but it was a little overloaded on them for my personal taste.'

Is there such a thing as too many Half-Par Holes?  If so, how many is too many?

[John Moore II]

Well, it depends how many would be too many. If they are all exceptionally designed holes, then why not 18 of them? But if they were built on less than stellar property by a less than stelar designer, then 4 or 5 might be too many. But then again, it still depends. I could easily see something like a 100 yard par 3 (2 1/2), a 275 yard par 3 (3 1/2), a 310 par 4 (3 1/2), a 520 par 4 (4 1/2) a 550 par 5 (4 1/2) and a 690 par 5 (5 1/2) and those all make sense depending on where they fall in the routing. Add in some other interesting holes and those 6 could be very good. (Now I don't really think a 690 par 5, unless its very tricked up, would play a 5 1/2 for anyone who should be playing a set of tees with a 275 par 3 and a 520 par 4, but thats another matter)

But the main answer is I don't think there can be too many, so long as they are all designed well.

[Wayne_Kozun]

Are any par4s over 440 yds half par holes?  If so my answer would be yes, at least when it comes to par 4 1/2 holes.  But I really like par 3 1/2 holes.

[Sean Eidson]

It probably depends on the balance of half a stroke more holes and half a stroke less holes.  Sometimes it seems like a course tries too hard to have holes with half a stroke more.  The course that I've played where this was most memborable was the Dye course at Promotonory Club in Utah.  With the combination of high altitude and forced carries, it felt like every hole was as long and difficult.  

[Jason McNamara]

Jim, was part of it perhaps that the half-par holes were so weighted too much to the risk side of the risk-reward equation?  "Oh great, another half-par 5 iron and wedge hole," that sort of thing.

[John Moore II]

Are any par4s over 440 yds half par holes?  If so my answer would be yes, at least when it comes to par 4 1/2 holes.  But I really like par 3 1/2 holes.

I would say that, no, 440+ yard holes are not half par holes; at least not for me. I mean, baring a cross bunker or something that prevent me from hitting driver, a 440 hole is Driver-Wedge or Driver-9 iron, 8 iron at most. Now, a 470 hole gets to be possibly a half par, but still not likely. A par 4 has to be pretty dang long for me to say its a 4 1/2 and its likely impossible I'll ever see a par 5 that I would call a 5 1/2.

[Ken Moum]

Are any par4s over 440 yds half par holes?  If so my answer would be yes, at least when it comes to par 4 1/2 holes.  But I really like par 3 1/2 holes.

I would say that, no, 440+ yard holes are not half par holes; at least not for me. I mean, baring a cross bunker or something that prevent me from hitting driver, a 440 hole is Driver-Wedge or Driver-9 iron, 8 iron at most. Now, a 470 hole gets to be possibly a half par, but still not likely. A par 4 has to be pretty dang long for me to say its a 4 1/2 and its likely impossible I'll ever see a par 5 that I would call a 5 1/2.

As I am sure you know, it's a different world when your driving average is 210 yards. For me, anything that's much longer than 400 yards is a 4 1/2.


On the original topic here, I agree with the idea that half-par holes are a wonderful thing, as long as they are distributed above and below par. Sugarloaf Mountain has a par three (175 yards downhill)  that's longer than one of the par fours (172 yards uphill) from the forward tees (I played it with my wife and 75-year-old aunt.)

From the tees I played the par three was 198 and the four was 252. I don't think there's enough of that in golf.

[Sean_A]

How can there be too many half par holes when the concept of "par" is a method of scoring?  I know folks give "par" credit for all sorts of mind games, but those games are just that, in their minds.  IMO there is entirely too much talk about half par holes - its on the list right next to bunkers.  Holes are what they are.  Expectations of success or failure in relation to par is irrelevant for nearly all golfers so why worry so much about it?

Ciao     

[John Moore II]

Yeah, I understand that half-par holes are different for different people. Thats why I posted what I did. To call something a half-par hole is in the eye of the beholder. For the 210 hitter, yeah, a hole over 400 is basically not reachable in 2 shots unless they are skilled at hitting a driver off the fairway which is not likely. Whereas for me, I have been on the green of a 600 yard hole in 2 shots before, and it wasn't playing hard downhill. I understand that its different for other people. But that also means half-par holes are defined differently for different people.

So on that note, what defines a half-par hole? I suppose that should be defined before we can really comment on what may or may not be too many.

[Dan Herrmann]

Sean, you darn Red Wings fan - you're right again.  Par is nonsense - an artificial construct that has no bearing in golf other than when playing a Stableford match.

[Ken Moum]

So on that note, what defines a half-par hole? I suppose that should be defined before we can really comment on what may or may not be too many.

IMHO, the whole concept is about fooling golfers into doing something they otherwise wouldn't do.

The short par fours and fives are all about getting players to think they are "stealing" something from the course.

The loooong par threes and fours are about making them think the course is punishing them for no good reason.

In reality, since par is completely an artificial construct, it's just a mind game.

K

[Carl Rogers]

It would seem these kinds of holes need to be at the end of the round, as there would be too risky to spoil a round from the start.

Riverfront...
- No. 7, No 10 & No. 17 could be a drivable par 4's for a very few... the consequences of failure severe at No. 17 and extreme awkwardness at No. 7 & No. 10
- No. 11 is the short par 3, but could not call it a 2.5 par particularly on a windy day
- No. 3 & No. 18 are what many could call the 4.5 par holes, but the out of position hole high shot is very problematic

[Dan Herrmann]

Carl,
How would a "half-par" in the first six holes spoil a round?

[Carl Rogers]

Dan,

Of course, it would not spoil the round .... I am saying that down the stretch it becomes more interesting in a close match.

Example: 10th hole at the Belfry, nobody's favorite course on this web site, but if that hole was no. 16 or no. 17, it would make the course better.  The decisive stroke, good or bad, might occur at that point in the round.

Counterpoint example: 1st at Cherry Hills ... drivable by many because of altitude & downhill ... potential momentum builder or dissapointment early in the round.

[Jason Topp]

One course I play a couple of times a year has a large number of holes that come close to 1/2 par holes for me:

Depending on the wind - holes often play as follows:

2 - Driver - hybrid or 3 wood par 4
3 - Light driver or 3 wood driveable par 4
4.  Wedge par 3
5  layup/wedge par 4
7 - reachable par 5
11 - Driver - hybrid or 3 wood par 4
13 3 wood - wedge par 4
15 - Reachable par 5
16 - driveable par 4
17 - Driver/ 3 wood par 4
18 - reachable or near reachable par 5 depending on the wind

It is a fun course, but I do find myself wishing for a driver/midiron par 4 at times.  For me, there are typically 3 of them in the entire round and none after the 10th hole.

[Ben Kodadek]

Jason,

Agreed...CTC.

[Michael Whitaker]

How can there be too many half par holes when the concept of "par" is a method of scoring?  I know folks give "par" credit for all sorts of mind games, but those games are just that, in their minds.  IMO there is entirely too much talk about half par holes - its on the list right next to bunkers.  Holes are what they are.  Expectations of success or failure in relation to par is irrelevant for nearly all golfers so why worry so much about it?

Ciao     

Thank you, Sean, for trying to bring this group back to earth. Too many of us worry about our score instead of just playing golf. I agree with you that par is irrelevant for nearly every golfer. As we are so found of saying these days, "It is what it is."

Can't wait to see you in September at the Buda!

[Mark_Fine]

I think some here are too hung up on yardage.  In many cases yardage has nothing to do with this concept of 1/2 par golf holes.  I recall a player coming to Lehigh and hearing that many of the holes for a long hitter like him would be driver/wedge.  On most of those "driver/wedge" holes he managed to make five often by three putting or doing something worse.  Maybe he thought those holes are 4 1/2 par holes for him 

I think the 1/2 par concept should be tossed aside as it really only comes into play for the pro golfer.  Notice no one ever talked about the 2 1/2 par hole.  Why is that 

[John Moore II]

I think some here are too hung up on yardage.  In many cases yardage has nothing to do with this concept of 1/2 par golf holes.  I recall a player coming to Lehigh and hearing that many of the holes for a long hitter like him would be driver/wedge.  On most of those "driver/wedge" holes he managed to make five often by three putting or doing something worse.  Maybe he thought those holes are 4 1/2 par holes for him 

I think the 1/2 par concept should be tossed aside as it really only comes into play for the pro golfer.  Notice no one ever talked about the 2 1/2 par hole.  Why is that 

I've talked about the 2 1/2 par hole, every chance possible. I'd love to see a hole short/easy enough to be considered a 2 1/2.

[Mark_Fine]

John,
Your 2 1/2 par hole doesn't exacting sound exciting to play   

[Bill Satterfield]

I received an e-mail from a non-GCAer with some feedback on a top 100 course.  One aspect that this guy did not enjoy about the course was that it had, in his opinion, too many half-par holes.  "I think there was overemphasis placed on '1/2 pars' throughout the course, which [he] seems to love because they work so well in a match-play scenario.  I like 1/2 pars as well, but it was a little overloaded on them for my personal taste.'

Is there such a thing as too many Half-Par Holes?  If so, how many is too many?

Jim, you are quoting my email from yesterday and I actually am a GCAer.  The course we were discussing features five par 4s that measure 480-510 yards.  It also features five par 4s that measure 350-385 yards.  My problem isn't in the concept of 1/2 par holes, it is more in the lack of variety from a length standpoint.  This course has an 80 yard spread from the longest "short" par four to the shortest "long" par four.

My mention of match play for 1/2 par holes was simply to state that in match play it is meaningless what the length of the hole is, but what I was trying to tell you is that a course that features so many 1/2 par holes ends up lacking distance variety.  On a windy day every course plays differently, but you can't bank on wind all the time.  The day I played it was a dead calm afternoon and I was hitting either a 4 iron or a wedge into virtually every green.  More variety would have been nice.

[Jim Colton]

Bill,

Didnt realize you were on GCA. My apologies.  In any case, I thought the issue you raised was interesting enough to bring to the group for discussion in general terms.  Everyone seems to enjoy half par holes but can you have too much of a good thing?

[Bill_McBride]

I think some here are too hung up on yardage.  In many cases yardage has nothing to do with this concept of 1/2 par golf holes.  I recall a player coming to Lehigh and hearing that many of the holes for a long hitter like him would be driver/wedge.  On most of those "driver/wedge" holes he managed to make five often by three putting or doing something worse.  Maybe he thought those holes are 4 1/2 par holes for him 

I think the 1/2 par concept should be tossed aside as it really only comes into play for the pro golfer.  Notice no one ever talked about the 2 1/2 par hole.  Why is that 

I've talked about the 2 1/2 par hole, every chance possible. I'd love to see a hole short/easy enough to be considered a 2 1/2.

The third at the nine-hole Glenbrook course at Lake Tahoe was only 85 yards when I worked there 50 years ago. Most of the 85 yards was sand, and the back of the big flat green was the lake!

If you made 3 you felt you'd thrown away a shot, so I guess that was a true 2-1/2 par!

The next hole was a slightly uphill 225 yard hole, a real 3-1/2 par. Great mix of holes.

[John Moore II]

Bill McB-I have always felt the 17th at Tobacco Road was a 2 1/2. Its about 125 from the back tees. but in most places the green funnels the ball towards where the hole is cut. It also plays substantially downhill. I can't really think of another par 3 that I think is a 2 1/2. But I think those would be great additions to some courses for sake of more interest.

[Wyatt Halliday]

It would seem these kinds of holes need to be at the end of the round, as there would be too risky to spoil a round from the start.

Riverfront...
- No. 7, No 10 & No. 17 could be a drivable par 4's for a very few... the consequences of failure severe at No. 17 and extreme awkwardness at No. 7 & No. 10
- No. 11 is the short par 3, but could not call it a 2.5 par particularly on a windy day
- No. 3 & No. 18 are what many could call the 4.5 par holes, but the out of position hole high shot is very problematic

Carl,

For the sake of argument, let's assume that you are playing against an opponent that has recently overwhelmed you in a match. If you can use these 1/2 par holes to gain an early advantage wouldn't you want to do so? For instance, if you jump out to an early lead, conservative play becomes easier for the match leader as opposed to the chaser. Say you are 2up on me after five with the sixth being a 4-1/2 par hole. Being down two so early, I would be thinking four to make up ground. The pressure is on me prior to tee meeting turf. As the match leader, five becomes acceptable because momentum would not be lost.

Wyatt

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