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Ben Sims

  • Total Karma: 7
Re: Bunker Fetishism
« Reply #25 on: July 26, 2009, 08:46:08 PM »
Tom,

I guess what I meant regarding the second question was; do you expect--over the course of a round--for a golfer to be more scared of your fairways hazards, or your green hazards? With all of the contour on some of your green complexes, I am far more scared of fairway bunkering.  Especially at BN and PD.

Also, I know how tired you are of all the bunker stuff here on GCA.  Mosey on over to the routing thread with some of the other designers and elighten us all. ;D

Eric_Terhorst

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: Bunker Fetishism
« Reply #26 on: July 26, 2009, 09:16:39 PM »
[quote author=Melvyn Hunter Morrow link=topic=40730.msg859274#msg859274 date=1248622931
However, was this the result of an architect, working in Scotland, just a hand full of miles away from some rather interesting and enjoyable courses, but it would seem that some of the old lessons were not learnt, but we hay, I expect it might be an idea of what Gil thinks Scotland golf courses look like over 100 years ago.   

Melvyn
[/quote]

Mr. Morrow,

You seem to know something about Gil Hanse's lessons learned before he came to Castle Stuart, what he thinks Scotland golf courses looked like in days of yore, and how he transcribed those lessons and beliefs into the design of Castle Stuart.   That sounds like an interesting conversation--please can you tell us more?

Rob Rigg

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: Bunker Fetishism
« Reply #27 on: July 27, 2009, 01:58:47 AM »
I think the flow of the land is much more interesting, in general, than specific bunkers. Although, as noted, it can be very difficult to capture on camera.

My favorite aspect of bunkers is how they tend to meld with the aesthetic of a hole while also dictating strategy. The third at PD is one of my favorites. I love the elevated tee shot with the bunkers waiting, and various combinations of them in play depending on the wind.

For those of us who tend to play parkland courses, seeing bunkers like those at Bandon, Chambers or in GBI (ie - links style bunkers) are incredibly exciting because they are scattered all over the damn place, not waiting patiently at the side of the fairway on the tee shot and either side of the green on the approach.

In terms of greenside bunkers, I enjoy the single dominant bunker of the Road Hole as a flashing sign of what must be avoided, versus a green surrounded by bunkers. Chipping areas, undulating greens, etc. are much more interesting to play IMO, then an island in a sea of sand.

« Last Edit: July 27, 2009, 02:18:09 AM by Rob Rigg »

Steve Salmen

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: Bunker Fetishism
« Reply #28 on: July 27, 2009, 04:46:06 AM »
Melvyn,

I agree that bunkers are hazards.  I do not necessarily believe that the bunker has to be the most penal of hazards in the vicinity of it's location.  The advantage of hitting into a bunker is that it takes all thought out of the shot and requires a blast.  Tom challenged this notion at #3 and #9 at Renaissance.

Regarding pot bunkers in the UK, I think the really big numbers pile up when the stance is bad.  Bunkers here are smaller and deeper and people tend to rake them better here so you generally don't get a bad lie unless you plug.

The other thing is that I used one hole as an example.  When the flag is cut up front on #15 at Dornoch, I'd rather be in one of the bunkers than in the fairway below the green level.  However, if the flag is back of center, I'd take my chances with the wedge from the short grass.

Steve

Sean_A

  • Total Karma: -2
Re: Bunker Fetishism
« Reply #29 on: July 27, 2009, 05:25:51 AM »
It seems from reading the Castle Stuart thread and a number of others that perhaps the most important item on a golf course for a GCA "fan" is bunkering.

Not fairway movement, not green surfaces, not even routing - but bunkers.

Am I completely wrong here, but have folks become overly obsessed about bunkers?  To me, there is a LOT more to architecture than bunkers.  Some aren't sexy at all - drainage, dealing with wetlands, etc., but many are more important than darn bunkers.

What do you think?

Dan

I think its difficult for many on here to comment about routings with any knowledge.  The best we can usually do talk about the flow of a course or how the wind is used. 

Often times the relationship between bunkers and the terrain are off kilter when we are talking about prime golfing land.  Bunkers are often used by archies as a way to justify their fees when they aren't necessary.  If we aren't talking about prime golfing land than archies do what they have to to create interest.  I don't take the same view as Tom D.  I don't want shallow bunkers except as the odd "what the hell" element.  I want varying degrees of penal, well placed bunkers, but less of them used in a way to enhance the terrain rather than dictate the style of design.  The easier the bunkers are the greater the excuse to use more of them and thus take away opportunities for the really creative shot-making. Besides, when you look at some of these huge blowout bunkers being created today, are they any easier for the averag guy to get out of?   Golf is a game played on turf and hazards should be used to entice, cajol or even trick the golfer, but once we use a large number of bunkers they become just another(annoying) part of the landscape rather than a thought provoking element.  I honestly believe that if archies asked themselves if another element would do or if its good enough as it is before whacking in a bunker we would be much better off. 

Just looking at pix of Wade Hampton shows me exactly what I don't want to see in a course.  Its almost as if the plan (and shaping) works around the bunkers rather than vice versa. 

Ciao
New plays planned for 2025: Machrihanish Dunes, Dunaverty and Carradale

Tom MacWood

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: Bunker Fetishism
« Reply #30 on: July 27, 2009, 06:08:13 AM »

Tom
 
Sorry Tom, but I thought you said

From a historical perspective bunkers are important because they are often the most obvious signature of an architect

Golf design and bunkers were not the invention of these Gentlemen. Unless you know something the rest of us don’t . 

Melvyn


Invention? Who said anything about invention. Are you familiar with the bunkering created by Mackenzie or Braid, and how they differ aesthetically? In other words they have a unique signature.

Melvyn Morrow

Re: Bunker Fetishism
« Reply #31 on: July 27, 2009, 10:19:26 AM »

Tom D

Bunkers are just one item with the architect/designers arsenal of option called hazards. In the good old day, the quality of the course was described by having many hazards.

I am actually not after penal or strategic golf as it appears to me being played or used today.  What I suppose I am stumbling for is the word like deterrent. I feel that deterrents are far more useful and constructive, although some may say that we already have that within the term strategic, yet IMHO I feel if we have It is not been fully used let alone perhaps understood.

The most penal option for a designer to include is a large pond/lake either around or part around a Green. That it feels is totally penal and in my way of thinking contributes very little to the round for the average player. It’s a killer, its stops the game in its track if the ball drops in the water. It may make the hole look spectacular, but for what all the players are about, i.e. playing golf is a NO, No.  The interruption not just to the poor player but his playing partners and potential hold up for those following is unacceptable. Yet what is a hole with an island Green or in part surrounded by water but perhaps a cop out by the designer to use his ability and imagination to design a hole with actual landing surfaces with all sorts of hazards. Therefore, I am not keen on this type of hole or this type of water hazard. A small stream is a calculated risk for the average golfer, an island Green really just a gives an outside chance.

I would like to see options, not just a limited approach to the pin. To take a risk, perhaps just follow the longer but safer route, or seek an alternative route that requires skill with shorter precision shots to the hole. Variation is the spice of life is it not.

As to the means to attracting the golfer to the options then I believe that is the job of the hazards. As for the bunker, it’s a useful trap and can cost a single stroke is wrong, more if not full upon your game, but at least you don’t loose the ball in 3 feet of water. As mentioned before shallow bunkers are not my idea of hazards, certainly, if the ball can bounce straight out. Nevertheless, these bunkers seem to appear quite regular on posted photos. Nor are they small in circumference but large and shallow. What sort of a deterrent is that?

I suppose it’s down to what the client wants, but hitting the ball a long distance leaves much to be desired and the final resting place can be down to the Gods. However persuading the golfer that skill and steady progress is the more effective strategy, does not seem to play much in Tee shots, or am I missing the point.

Penal has its part to play but deterrents are more useful if the players understand that they can be indeed penal. The option that the best shot is from the bunkers needs to be eradicated, you are in the bunker because you tried but were not good enough on the day so are paying the price. If water hazards with their inherent destruction to the golfers round are acceptable, then I see little against my above options or am I being naive Tom

After all what is the main requirement of a client, surely to see golfers playing repeat rounds on a very regular basic on their course. Perhaps I am also suggesting more emphasis on design and less on complicated construction methods (building large shallow bunkers/pond/lakes).

Just my opinion and nothing to do with the past, just hopefully golfing options for all.

Melvyn 

Tom MacWood

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: Bunker Fetishism
« Reply #32 on: July 27, 2009, 10:23:42 AM »
Melvyn
Are you familiar with the work of Simpson, Mackenzie, Braid, Colt, etc, and their unique bunkering style or aesthetic?

Sean_A

  • Total Karma: -2
Re: Bunker Fetishism
« Reply #33 on: July 27, 2009, 11:35:35 AM »
Melvyn
Are you familiar with the work of Simpson, Mackenzie, Braid, Colt, etc, and their unique bunkering style or aesthetic?

Tommy Mac

I am not so sure these archies always had a unique style.  We know that Dr Mac's bunkers were different in different periods and when working with different people.  I don't believe Braid had a style that is recognizable as his and his alone (very simple/basic shapes).  Colt and Simpson were individualistic, but like today, others jumped on board Colt's style - namely Fowler at Berkshire or was it Simpson at Berkshire? The pairing of Fowler and Simpson should make us wary of generalizations like yours.  Its very dangerous to make assumptions about architecture based on bunker design.  I think the Ross situation should have made that clear. 

Ciao
New plays planned for 2025: Machrihanish Dunes, Dunaverty and Carradale

Tom MacWood

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: Bunker Fetishism
« Reply #34 on: July 27, 2009, 11:45:30 AM »
Melvyn
Are you familiar with the work of Simpson, Mackenzie, Braid, Colt, etc, and their unique bunkering style or aesthetic?

Tommy Mac

I am not so sure these archies always had a unique style.  We know that Dr Mac's bunkers were different in different periods and when working with different people.  I don't believe Braid had a style that is recognizable as his and his alone (very simple/basic shapes).  Colt and Simpson were individualistic, but like today, others jumped on board Colt's style - namely Fowler at Berkshire or was it Simpson at Berkshire? The pairing of Fowler and Simpson should make us wary of generalizations like yours.  Its very dangerous to make assumptions about architecture based on bunker design.  I think the Ross situation should have made that clear.  

Ciao

I agree completely. Many of these architect's styles evolve overtime and can vary based upon the involvement of an associate or different construction firms, etc. Its important to recognize that the aesthetic can vary and important to preserve those different styles. In America Ross's courses are under assault from restoration architects who project one prototypical style.

I'd say Mackenzie and Simpson's style has the least variation.
« Last Edit: July 27, 2009, 11:48:22 AM by Tom MacWood »

Chris Buie

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: Bunker Fetishism
« Reply #35 on: July 27, 2009, 02:37:08 PM »
I'm sure you gentlemen will appreciate the sublime nature of these bunkers.

I can't remember if I took this photo at Ballybunion or Cypress Point. 

Grant Saunders

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: Bunker Fetishism
« Reply #36 on: July 27, 2009, 07:10:40 PM »
Here is the link to a course that I am fortunate to play at on occasion.

http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,34305.msg688470/

As I mention in the review, the course has no bunkers. It was only on post round analysis that I realised this. I certainly did not play the course with a sense of there being something missing or that it lacked challenge and strategy. Certainly the course has plenty of stimulation in the form of rocks and other natural forms but I feel that nothing would be added to this course if bunkers were introduced.

I agree with Dan's original statement about there being much more to architecture than just bunkers and that they are simply one component of the course. It is refreshing to encounter a course that can stand on the merit of its natural landscape alone without the need for the addition of bunkers.

Dan Herrmann

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: Bunker Fetishism
« Reply #37 on: July 27, 2009, 09:12:37 PM »
Grant,
How the heck did I miss that thread.  You said in photographs what I could never say in words.  Bravo!

You know - Let me propose a bit of a thesis here...  "Every great (inland) golf course should have at least one bunkerless hole". 

(that felt good)

The reason I added "inland" is that it could be impossible to have a links without bunkers due to the land itself.

Grant Saunders

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: Bunker Fetishism
« Reply #38 on: July 27, 2009, 09:26:03 PM »
Dan

I fully agree with your thesis and would even go so far as to suggest that possibly 4-5 holes without bunkers could be considered realistic.

Question for the architects on here: is it harder to design a hole with out bunkers?

What are some examples of great holes without bunkers?

Mike Erdmann

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: Bunker Fetishism
« Reply #39 on: July 27, 2009, 09:56:52 PM »
Well put.  I like your term even more than "bunker slut" which I used toward someone a couple of weeks ago.

The Redanman himself originally coined the term bunker fetish, and even registered bunkerfetish.com* more than two years ago though he hasn't done anything with it yet.  Hell, he's probably expecting royalties from all who use the term.   ;)

*Note:  bunkerfetish.com is not to be confused with fetishbunker.com, which is, uh, a slightly more 'colorful' site.

Sean_A

  • Total Karma: -2
Re: Bunker Fetishism
« Reply #40 on: July 28, 2009, 04:02:23 AM »
Grant,
How the heck did I miss that thread.  You said in photographs what I could never say in words.  Bravo!

You know - Let me propose a bit of a thesis here...  "Every great (inland) golf course should have at least one bunkerless hole". 

(that felt good)

The reason I added "inland" is that it could be impossible to have a links without bunkers due to the land itself.

Dan

Lets put it this way, on a good site I think archies should look to build 4 or 5 bunkerless holes and at least a few single bunker holes.  Whenever I come across bunkerless or single bunker holes on good land they tend to be some of the standout holes.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2025: Machrihanish Dunes, Dunaverty and Carradale

Dan Herrmann

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: Bunker Fetishism
« Reply #41 on: July 28, 2009, 12:25:14 PM »
PS - no disrespect was ever intended regarding Bill V. (Redanman).  I actually got the idea after reading a Doak post on another thread.

Norbert P

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: Bunker Fetishism
« Reply #42 on: July 28, 2009, 01:15:41 PM »
I think the flow of the land is much more interesting, in general, than specific bunkers. Although, as noted, it can be very difficult to capture on camera.

My favorite aspect of bunkers is how they tend to meld with the aesthetic of a hole while also dictating strategy.


 I don't want to be typecast as a bunker slut!  I'm also a routing slut and a fate slut with fetishes for tufted grasses and strategic elements upon firm and fast conditions.



 We do tend to present images of bunkers more than any other but most of us don't have the time to wait for the sunset's golden light on every hole to capture the land movement.   We do, like some have mentioned, go for the obvious remarks about bunkers only to have the thread fade away before the talk goes to the land's geologic and floral element factors and the incorporations of those existing natures with the confinements and expectations of creating a golf course.
« Last Edit: July 28, 2009, 01:19:59 PM by Slag Bandoon »
"Golf is only meant to be a small part of one’s life, centering around health, relaxation and having fun with friends/family." R"C"M

Mark_Fine

  • Total Karma: -6
Re: Bunker Fetishism
« Reply #43 on: July 28, 2009, 02:29:11 PM »
Just think of all the great courses that might be soooo much better if they didn't have so many bunkers.  Courses like Pine Valley, Shinnecock Hills, Oakmont, Merion, Winged Foot, Prairie Dunes, Cypress Point, Crystal Downs, National Golf Links,The Old Course at St. Andrews...., and the list goes on.  You could probably eliminate half their bunkers.  The question is which half do you eliminate  ;)

The truth is that bunkers define most golf courses.  They are one of the first and most visible features that most golfers notice.  Are they sometimes overused, definitely.  Sometimes they are underused as well.  They are one of the main features the tie or "connect" inland courses to the original seaside links courses.  Few architects would ever consider building a course without them.  That said, one of my favorite courses is Royal Ashdown Forest (which doesn't have any bunkers).  It shows there are always exceptions. 
« Last Edit: July 28, 2009, 02:43:07 PM by Mark_Fine »

Norbert P

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: Bunker Fetishism
« Reply #44 on: July 28, 2009, 02:41:24 PM »
o
Just think of all the great courses that might be soooo much better if they didn't have so many bunkers.  Courses like Pine Valley, Shinnecock Hills, Oakmont, Merion, Winged Foot, Prairie Dunes, Cypress Point, Crystal Downs, National Golf Links,The Old Course at St. Andrews...., and the list goes on.  You could probably eliminate half their bunkers.  The question is which half do you eliminate  ;)



Mark, that little wink emoticon probably just saved Tommy Nac's life.  I just hope he got that far before a grand mal siezure and Tourette's kicked in.
"Golf is only meant to be a small part of one’s life, centering around health, relaxation and having fun with friends/family." R"C"M

Mark_Fine

  • Total Karma: -6
Re: Bunker Fetishism
« Reply #45 on: July 28, 2009, 02:45:06 PM »
Slag,
My comment about eliminating half was of course in jest  ;D  Those courses would not be those courses without their bunkers.
Mark

DMoriarty

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: Bunker Fetishism
« Reply #46 on: July 28, 2009, 02:52:35 PM »
Here is what Perry Maxwell said about bunkers in 1935:

Far too many exist in our land . . . Oakmont, Pittsburgh, where the National Open will be played this year, has two hundred. Other courses famed everywhere average one hundred and fifty. From twenty to twenty-five, plus the natural obstacles are ample for any course.  Millions of dollars annually are wasted in devastating the earth; in obstructing the flow of the rainfall; in creating impossible conditions.
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Mark_Fine

  • Total Karma: -6
Re: Bunker Fetishism
« Reply #47 on: July 28, 2009, 03:35:56 PM »
I know that Maxwell quote well as we have it in our summary of his thoughts on hazards.  Those who know Maxwell realize he used bunkers sparingly.  If you play enough Maxwell courses you might have wished he used a few more as some of his non-formal hazards such as plum thickets, yucca plants, soap weeds, and other flora were much more hazardous to a golf shot  ;)