[Phil McDade]

Dan, Phil and you Lawsonia lovers.

I can't help but speculate after seeing some similarities in the pictures that L&M must've been highly influenced by this course.

What say you?

If that has that been postulated before, just ignore me.

Adam:

Postulated indeed. Dan knows much more history than I do about Langford and his Chicago connections, but here's something I wrote up in Dan's Lawsonia thread of last year:

---------------

-- On the Raynor/Macdonald connection to Langford. It's one of the more intriguing questions regarding Langford's work. As is obvious from Dan's excellent photo essay, Langford and his chief landscaper Moreau utilized what might be termed a highly engineered style re. their bunkering, pushed-up greens, and internal green contours. One might look at, for instance, this GCA essay of Sleepy Hollow: http://www.golfclubatlas.com/sleepyhollow1.html and think -- there has to be some kind of connection. To date, there has been no historical record (at least among the GCA Langford fans who have looked) demonstrating any connection between Raynor/Macdonald and Langford. But there are some interesting ties -- Langford (like Raynor, a civil engineer by training) studied at Yale, spent time on the East Coast, probably had access (because he was a very good golfer in his own right) to some of the East Coast's best-known courses, perhaps even NGLA, and settled in Chicago, where he ran a golf course along with his design efforts (and presumably knew about, perhaps even played, Chicago GC). It's all speculative, not really even circumstantial evidence, but the similarity of their work begs the question -- could two separate teams of architects/designers come up with such a striking look independently of each other? I have argued that the near-Redan 4th at Lawsonia bears too much similarity to a classic Redan for Langford not to have known about the Redan design concept (and there's no evidence that Langford ever traveled overseas to draw inspiration for his work). I have even argued that the boxcar 7th hole may be Langford's attempt at replicating the design philosophy of a Raynor/Macdonald Short.

------------------------------------------

For Langford nuts, a clear connection to Macdonald/Raynor is something of a search for the Holy Grail -- as you note, Adam, the two design elements central to each of their courses bears so much similarity that it begs the question of whether they ever met.

[Adam Clayman]

It only makes sense to assume that they would've had access to CGC. Especially with that 1921 date for Raynor's re-build.

Surely, the effect Lawsonia had on me, is enough evidence, for me, that those part's, as a whole. can captivate even the most clueless.

[Robert Mercer Deruntz]

I would never describe the course as being flat.  Ravines or jagged hills--no.   Constantly rolling terrain with very few level lies would very much fit CGC.



Because Raynor did Shoreacres, I guess some comparisons cannot be avoided.  Shoreacres does have some pretty cool land from holes 11-14.  However, it may have the most uninspiring greens among all the Raynor's that I have played so far!

[Robert Mercer Deruntz]

Here is a comparison of the Biarritz holes


Vs.

[Chuck Brown]

It is really interesting land; not easy to categorize.  The very large scale and the lack of trees make it seem flat at first.  Some of the pictures may seem sort of flat.  But it is not flat.  I know flat, and Chicago is not flat.  There is just enough elevation change to throw off your calculation of a club distance, or to affect ballflight.  In other words, perfect for golf.
Somebody (I wish I could remember who) discussed good linksland as mimicking the waves on the ocean; essentially level, but constantly rolling.  I'd never call Chicago "linksland", but it has many of those good qualities.

[Sean_A]

Chip

Thanks for posting the pix.  This place looks like a spruced up version of Yeamans Hall - though the bunkering seems a bit lighter, especially around the greens, but the fairwat placement looks very familiar.  Also, believe it or not, Yeamans looks to have better land movement (and I think the Raynor style fits the holes with more movement better and I think Lawsonia - though not Raynor, but similar, seems to fit well with the more rolling land) as Chicago does look essentially flat, but with very minimal elevation change in key areas such as slightly raised greens and mounding for bunkers to create depth and I believe to obscure the view of the target sometimes (an element of bunkering I really like). 

There is something very compelling about Raynor courses - at least in pix.  One minute I am turned off (the Biarritz always looks a shocker to me) and the next I am delighted.  A very polarizing style which is almost like a road accident, one can't help but to look.  Perhaps its the honesty of the design.  Raynor didn't seem to try and hide any visual glitches and yet sometimes they look a marvel.

Ciao

[Jeff Goldman]

I recall Tom Doak mentioning that one of the key elements of CGC is that you are putting on 18 original Seth Raynor greens.  No rebuilding, no restoration, no shrinkage and expansion.  And, of course, the greens are amazing.

Another thing about the comparison between Shoreacres and CGC seems to be that at Shoreacres, the great holes are not the template holes; the road hole isn't particularly severe, the redan is odd, the short is great, more for its placement than the green or bunkering, etc. etc.  The great holes are originals that put the ravines to great use (11, 15, etc.).  In contrast, at CGC, the great holes are the template holes for the most part.  Very cool road hole with a wicked green, great double plateau with a wicked green, fantastic short with a wicked green, great punchbowl with a wicked green...... 

[PThomas]

haven't played there yet, but went to the Walker Cup not to see the play but the course...and no gallery ropes, so i got to walk each hole right down the middle of each fairway

a true museum piece, CGC

[Tim_Cronin]

Chip,
    I concur on the praise toward Bill Shean.  An absolute prince.  He guided me and a couple of pals from the Illinois PGA around CGC a few years ago, and we had a great time, even though I was too hyped up to take a divot.  And a classic course.  At the end of the round, a fog was settling in, and I swear you could see Charlie MacDonald's ghost out there.

[PThomas]

...on the other hand, found this at work a few minutes ago while cleaning up...from George Peper, GOLF magazine, September 2001 issue:

"Most overrated:...Dishonorable mention: Chicago Golf Club.  CB Macdonald happens to be my favorite golf architect, but he must have been in one of his moods when he carved out CGC."

and btw, the other course he listed forst in that section was Seminole

[David Davis]

Had the chance to play Chicago Golf Club last Saturday and what for them was described as a very busy, highly uncommon morning. Perfect weather, perfect conditions and 3 well informed strong playing members providing a wonderful tour.


What a place, now in the hands of a superintendent that has come over from NGLA some time ago, CGC along with Shoreacres are no doubt in the best shape they have ever been. Firm and fast, tons of width and wonderful strategic holes. Naturally many of the CB Macdonald and Raynor templates are there. Beautiful versions of these holes that fit perfectly into the rolling terrain which I'd say is excellent for golf. Perfect for a club you could walk and play daily and hard to believe you could feel so rich from a $1 nassau game.


It really is hard (for me) to figure out how we just lost it somewhere in terms of CGA (until more recently). The earliest courses in the US where wonderful and it's taken arguably 100 years to come full circle and realize that which we/at least some already knew in terms of architecture. CGC is like walking into a museum for me, this is where it started (for the US). Wow! Can't wait to return one day.

[Anthony_Nysse]

Had the chance to play Chicago Golf Club last Saturday and what for them was described as a very busy, highly uncommon morning. Perfect weather, perfect conditions and 3 well informed strong playing members providing a wonderful tour.


What a place, now in the hands of a superintendent that has come over from NGLA some time ago, CGC along with Shoreacres are no doubt in the best shape they have ever been. Firm and fast, tons of width and wonderful strategic holes. Naturally many of the CB Macdonald and Raynor templates are there. Beautiful versions of these holes that fit perfectly into the rolling terrain which I'd say is excellent for golf. Perfect for a club you could walk and play daily and hard to believe you could feel so rich from a $1 nassau game.


It really is hard (for me) to figure out how we just lost it somewhere in terms of CGA (until more recently). The earliest courses in the US where wonderful and it's taken arguably 100 years to come full circle and realize that which we/at least some already knew in terms of architecture. CGC is like walking into a museum for me, this is where it started (for the US). Wow! Can't wait to return one day.

Their Supt, Scott Bordner, came from Rivercrest in PA where he was Supt for a few years. Prior to that, he was Matt Shaffer's right hand man at Merion.  Scott took over for Jon Jennings after Jon left for Shinnecock

[Adam Lawrence]

David, with respect, to say that CGC and Shoreacres are 'no doubt in the best shape they have ever been' is a pretty silly comment. I mean, they may well be. But you cannot possibly know.

[Ian Mackenzie]

David, with respect, to say that CGC and Shoreacres are 'no doubt in the best shape they have ever been' is a pretty silly comment. I mean, they may well be. But you cannot possibly know.

Yes, but in this case, David is correct.


And, Adam, Old Elm is NOT the sole course where Ross and Colt directly collaborated.....

[PCCraig]

David, with respect, to say that CGC and Shoreacres are 'no doubt in the best shape they have ever been' is a pretty silly comment. I mean, they may well be. But you cannot possibly know.

Yes, but in this case, David is correct.


And, Adam, Old Elm is NOT the sole course where Ross and Colt directly collaborated.....

Where else, Ian?

[Terry Lavin]

Both courses have fine tuned their restored fine points. Each has a young superintendent who is extra competent and both have full autonomy. Having played both a bunch for a couple decades I would agree that they are at pinnacle presentation.

[Tom Bacsanyi]

I wonder if the decision to convert the front of the Biarritz green to an approach was because of the slope of that section?  Is it excessively pitched front to back?  Maybe it had become unplayable at modern green speeds at green height, so the decision was either level it, or convert it into an approach.  Seeing as the club is rightly loathe to change anything, maybe it was the lesser of two evils? 

[Bill Brightly]

Tom, never was the front of a Biarritz green converted to an approach. To the contrary, many MacRaynor courses converted their approaches to putting surfaces. Either Yale or St. Louis CC was the first to do so early on, and many have followed suit in the past ten years ago.


This is an important point for those of us who care about the history of GCA. It is easy to see an 80 yard long "Biarritz green" on a MacRaynor course and incorrectly assume thats is how Macdonald, Raynor and Banks drew up the hole. They did NOT. The truf short of the swale was always the approach. These approaches were built before a golf ball could easily be carried in the air 200+ yards; before modern irrigation systems which provide for lush fairways that make the ball check. Instead, these long par threes were designed when players could not fly the ball to the green and the (non-irrigated) approach was hard and fast.


These were designed as Biarritz HOLES, not Biarritz greens.

[Tom Bacsanyi]

Tom, never was the front of a Biarritz green converted to an approach. To the contrary, many MacRaynor courses converted their approaches to putting surfaces. Either Yale or St. Louis CC was the first to do so early on, and many have followed suit in the past ten years ago.


This is an important point for those of us who care about the history of GCA. It is easy to see an 80 yard long "Biarritz green" on a MacRaynor course and incorrectly assume thats is how Macdonald, Raynor and Banks drew up the hole. They did NOT. The truf short of the swale was always the approach. These approaches were built before a golf ball could easily be carried in the air 200+ yards; before modern irrigation systems which provide for lush fairways that make the ball check. Instead, these long par threes were designed when players could not fly the ball to the green and the (non-irrigated) approach was hard and fast.


These were designed as Biarritz HOLES, not Biarritz greens.

Ah!  Fascinating stuff there.  One learns something new every day.  Thanks!

[Mark Chaplin]

As a police inspector I was "saddened" when my first officer arrived ho hadn't been born when I joined the police. As a golfer I'm surprised but delighted to see how many young course managers there are at top golf courses. Playing with Bledge the RCP course manager we met young CMs at Ballybunnion and Lahinch. Bledge also met several young CMs at the GIS in San Diego, the industry is clearly in good health with young able staff getting the progression they deserve.

As for Chicago Golf it is one of my favourite clubs and I've been lucky to enjoy playing there a number of times. The members are charming,  very fortunate but at the same time very aware they are the custodians of one of the game's treasures. I'll never forget my first visit on a Saturday morning when our host apologised for the club being so busy with nearly 10 groups at the club. Mind you the next day at Old Elm we were one of only three Sunday morning groups!

[David Davis]

@Adam, fair point, as you know I'm going largely by heresy given I just experienced it for the first time. However, the heresy is from members sharing their delight. Two of which were on the greens committee and seemed extremely up on club history as you would expect.


Still perhaps my statement is not factually based enough for your liking and others on this site. It may have been better to state the best shape in our lifetimes or so it would seem.


@Mark, I'm seeing a pattern here. I would guess there were 8 groups out and I received the same comment. Unless we played with the same hosts I'm wondering if it might be a similar statement to arriving at a windy links when all the members you run into suggest that todays breeze is but a wee breeze and a fraction of what they are accustomed to. ;-)


It's hard to imagine what you could change for the better at CGC. I couldn't think of anything I would improve upon and that to me says a lot. It's a wonderful place.

[Mark Chaplin]

David 4-6 groups is average during the week, made no you there are only 125 members. Mind you this time last year 6 of us had both courses at Dismal River to ourselves.

[mike_beene]

David, your autocorrect may be Freudian.

[Joel_Stewart]

Fun to see this old thread.


I played Chicago Golf Club last week and by the looks of Facebook and Instagram a few others did as well.


The main thing that has changed is that Scott Bordner the superintendent who is widely praised here has left and taken the head job at Merion.  From what I am told, this happened around or after the 2018 US Senior Womens Open.


The assistant superintendent Craig Smith was promoted is all of 28 years old.  I don't know if Craig is superman or a wonderkid but the condition was incredibly good. The member who I played with is in the golf industry and widely travels said that Craig has taken the course to a new level.  The course and greens are fast.  I'm told they are verticutting the surrounds and runup areas which are tremendous.


I played here around 20 years ago and knew it was great but forgot how great. Of the 800 or so courses I have played its Top 10.

[Tom Bacsanyi]

Fun to see this old thread.


I played Chicago Golf Club last week and by the looks of Facebook and Instagram a few others did as well.


The main thing that has changed is that Scott Bordner the superintendent who is widely praised here has left and taken the head job at Merion.  From what I am told, this happened around or after the 2018 US Senior Womens Open.


The assistant superintendent Craig Smith was promoted is all of 28 years old.  I don't know if Craig is superman or a wonderkid but the condition was incredibly good. The member who I played with is in the golf industry and widely travels said that Craig has taken the course to a new level.  The course and greens are fast.  I'm told they are verticutting the surrounds and runup areas which are tremendous.


I played here around 20 years ago and knew it was great but forgot how great. Of the 800 or so courses I have played its Top 10.

Wrong, Scott is at Union League National in NJ. Paul Latshaw is at Merion via Muirfield Village.

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