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Brian_Ewen

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3 new holes to be added at The Renaissance club
« on: July 27, 2009, 01:21:00 PM »
http://thescotsman.scotsman.com/sport/Mike-Aitken-Renaissance-on-course.5495176.jp

Mike Aitken: Renaissance on course to meet iconic ambition
Published Date: 27 July 2009

ALREADY considered alongside Kingsbarns and the Castle, both near St Andrews, as one of Scotland's most compelling new courses, the Renaissance club at Archerfield in East Lothian is pursuing a further upgrade which it hopes will elevate Tom Doak's design into a lay-out to compare with iconic seaside venues such as Pebble Beach and Turnberry.

On linksland purchased from Muirfield, the Renaissance aims to create three additional holes, two par 4s and a par 3, in a triangular peninsula which juts out in to the Forth. A planning application for these spectacular holes has already been filed with East Lothian council and the club are hopeful of getting the green light for the project.

According to Jerry Sarvadi, one of the owners of the Renaissance, the introduction of new holes with the 'wow' factor will not only play a big part in turning the course into the kind of venue which can stage a prestigious professional tournament but also promote golf tourism in East Lothian.

Standing on a parcel of attractive land between Muirfield and Archerfield, the Renaissance is already set to become a quality addition to Scotland's golfing resources. Introducing three linksland holes, in Sarvadi's opinion, will push the concept on to a new level.

"Maybe I'm biased, but I honestly believe these three holes are so significant for the entire East Lothian coastline," he remarked after a game at the Renaissance. "What these holes will do for the golf course is going to be great, not just for us, but the whole environment. I know we're a private members' club, but the members and guests come from all over the world. We'll get them to stay here and spend money in East Lothian.

"We were talking about the 13th at the Glen in North Berwick, which is such a dramatic par 3. Our new 12th hole will have that same sense of drama. The overall feel will be something like the 18th at Pebble Beach or the holes around the turn at Turnberry. The 'wow' factor is going to be something special.

"Where we are at the moment is we've registered for planning permission with East Lothian Council and they're going to get back to us in August, unless they request an extension, which is something they normally do. Tom Doak has seen the land and routed the holes. All we're waiting to discover is what's under the brush and the buckthorn."

While his family live near Ponte Vedra, the home of the Players Championship, in Florida, Sarvadi now spends half the year in East Lothian nurturing the growth of the Renaissance, which was built on land owned by the Duke of Hamilton. With a membership bond costing £60,000 as from 1 July, there have been whispers in a global recession the club could struggle.

Since Jerry, who once owned the largest fuel aviation business in America, and his brother Paul, who runs a human resources company, are not exactly short of funds, the Sarvadis were able to finance the Renaissance without borrowings.

"We are very secure financially," explained Jerry. "The location of the property, and the fact we knew the course was already there on a piece of land created for golf, meant that we were able, by comparison, to build it for significantly less money than might otherwise have been the case anywhere else in the world. It was still a lot of money, but these things are relative and established how we got into this.

"We didn't pay for the land, which was acquired on a 99 year lease. That meant we don't have any borrowings, other than a few hire purchase agreements for equipment totalling less than £400,000. Compared to the £12 million we've already spent, that's insignificant. Borrowings are a big factor when banks have hard times. But we don't have a bank calling us on the phone. It's a very good place to be.

"What's fair to say is that our time scale (for attracting 600 members] has extended because of the downturn. We have been operational for almost 14 months and let me say my initial budget included three years of operating losses. Now we're having those losses, but it's not something we didn't plan for, because we were expecting them anyway."

Although the course is still evolving, the level of presentation is already exceptional. A recent independent agronomy report concluded: "Collectively, the greens, surrounds and fairways are some of the best links playing surfaces ever seen." Sarvadi, understandably, is full of praise for the part played by Doak in fashioning such a sympathetic lay-out.

Having once spent nearly a year in Scotland, playing the great links and decoding the intricacies of the Old Course, Doak enjoys a reputation in course design as a minimalist. Even without the proposed addition of three linksland holes, the back nine of the Renaissance more closely echoes the nuances of its neighbours in East Lothian than might have been expected from a project financed and conceived on the other side of the Atlantic.

An admirer of both Muirfield and North Berwick, Doak's enthusiasm for the latter is reflected in the stone walls which adorn a number of holes at the Renaissance. While the front nine, tree-lined with echoes of Sunningdale, has a different flavour, Doak still sees the hybrid as possessing the same virtues and characteristics as a links.

Measuring more than 7,400 yards off the championship tees with devilishly subtle, sloping greens, the Renaissance will test the professionals one day.

"Having a tournament here has always been in the plans," added Sarvadi. "The way the course has been set up, it can handle that. And it's something which may happen sooner rather than later. There are things going on which I can't really talk about yet. One of my younger brothers, Paul, founded a company, Administaff, which is the sponsor of a US Champions Tour event in Houston. We know the guys at the PGA Tour, they've been here and know about our project."

Since George O'Grady, the chief executive of the European Tour, has also visited the Renaissance, it will be intriguing to see exactly what the future holds for a course with the potential to become such an outstanding matchplay venue.

Ben Stephens

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Re: 3 new holes to be added at The Renaissance club
« Reply #1 on: July 27, 2009, 02:58:35 PM »
Dear GCA

Just had a look at the East Lothian Planning Website to find out about the Renaissance 3 new holes. Here is the shortcut link

http://www.planning.eastlothian.gov.uk/WAM/pas/showCaseFile.do?councilName=East+Lothian+Council&appNumber=09%2F00364%2FFUL

The new 12th has a wall across the fairway at 280-300 yards - shades of North Berwick?

The opening holes are to be divided up to 6 short holes and the driving range enlarged to create an academy

Cheers

Ben

Tom_Doak

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Re: 3 new holes to be added at The Renaissance club
« Reply #2 on: July 27, 2009, 03:23:33 PM »
Let me just clarify for now that they have submitted for planning approval for the three new holes.  It is by no means a sure thing that they will get approval in land designated SSSI -- but we have done our best to avoid disturbance to the most sensitive parts of it, and we are told there's nothing we want to do that was not permitted at Machrihanish Dunes and for the new Trump project.  So, we are hopeful we will receive permission.

There is no such thing as a timetable when dealing with such situations.

We have planned for the possibility of these three holes from the moment the land was acquired ... it's just that the new ground from Muirfield was not part of the legal parcel that had been approved for the original 18 holes, and they don't "amend" planning permission in Scotland.  To try and include these three holes at that point would've meant starting over on the whole planning process, which the client understandably did not want to do.  So it was decided to wait until the course was open to submit the permits for the new land on the point.  I did do the routing for the existing course so that it would be easy to take out a comparable three-hole stretch if permission is granted and still have a smooth 18-hole routing.

The course has matured beautifully and we all enjoyed being over there last week for the Renaissance Cup.

Scott Warren

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Re: 3 new holes to be added at The Renaissance club
« Reply #3 on: July 27, 2009, 03:26:13 PM »
Is the wall existing, or are they going to build it specifically for the hole?

Tom_Doak

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Re: 3 new holes to be added at The Renaissance club
« Reply #4 on: July 27, 2009, 03:29:39 PM »
The wall is existing, under the buckthorn.  We'll have to see if it extends all the way across when & if we get to do the clearing.  It is an extension of the same wall that ends its broken-down path as the backdrop to the existing 11th green.

Any existing walls on the property have to be restored and kept, as part of the Scottish National Heritage guidelines for developing the property.

Kyle Henderson

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Re: 3 new holes to be added at The Renaissance club
« Reply #5 on: July 27, 2009, 03:36:10 PM »


Are those dunes (viewed from Muirfield's 6th tee) a part or whole of the parcel in question?
"I always knew terrorists hated us for our freedom. Now they love us for our bondage." -- Stephen T. Colbert discusses the popularity of '50 Shades of Grey' at Gitmo

Tony_Muldoon

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Re: 3 new holes to be added at The Renaissance club
« Reply #6 on: July 27, 2009, 03:39:52 PM »
Has the tree survived?








« Last Edit: July 27, 2009, 03:42:13 PM by Tony_Muldoon »
Let's make GCA grate again!

Tom_Doak

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Re: 3 new holes to be added at The Renaissance club
« Reply #7 on: July 27, 2009, 03:51:02 PM »
Tony:  Your favorite little tree is alive and well, and thriving.

Kyle:  All the land in your photo belongs to Muirfield.  The land they traded to The Renaissance Club is around the corner to the right, the better part of a mile to the east, at the point in Tony's last (dark) picture.  I believe The Honourable Company are keeping tabs on our progress with the permits, because they've got plenty of ground for more golf if it is permittable out there ... the contours are awesome, but I don't know how much of their land is the mossy stuff which we have to steer around.
« Last Edit: July 27, 2009, 03:53:11 PM by Tom_Doak »

Jim Nugent

Re: 3 new holes to be added at The Renaissance club
« Reply #8 on: July 27, 2009, 05:35:46 PM »
Tom, which holes will the three new holes become?  Which holes in the current routing will go NLE? 

Will Smith

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Re: 3 new holes to be added at The Renaissance club
« Reply #9 on: July 27, 2009, 05:39:26 PM »
Tom-

Just wanted to write and say how much I enjoyed RC when I was there at beginning of the month. I loved the restraint shown throughout the course. There is nothing over the top and the result is very good and enjoyable course. I loved ten and eleven (of course those are the wildest holes out there).

I assume the first three holes would be the ones that would be swapped out?

- Will

Tom_Doak

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Re: 3 new holes to be added at The Renaissance club
« Reply #10 on: July 27, 2009, 05:44:27 PM »
The first three holes would be removed from the main layout, even though we really liked how those holes turned out.

The front nine would be holes 4-12 to the far end of the property.  Then you'd play the three new holes at 10-11-12, and return to the present routing with #13.  We would probably make some sort of halfway house by the 9th & 12th green.

Kyle Henderson

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Re: 3 new holes to be added at The Renaissance club
« Reply #11 on: July 27, 2009, 07:05:58 PM »
The first three holes would be removed from the main layout, even though we really liked how those holes turned out.

The front nine would be holes 4-12 to the far end of the property.  Then you'd play the three new holes at 10-11-12, and return to the present routing with #13.  We would probably make some sort of halfway house by the 9th & 12th green.

Will the abandoned holes be maintained as a practice area or completely razed?
"I always knew terrorists hated us for our freedom. Now they love us for our bondage." -- Stephen T. Colbert discusses the popularity of '50 Shades of Grey' at Gitmo

John Kirk

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Re: 3 new holes to be added at The Renaissance club
« Reply #12 on: July 28, 2009, 10:57:33 AM »
I had the great opportunity to play the Renaissance Club for two days last week.  This thread has generated insufficient analysis of the course to date.  I'd like to share a few things about this excellent course and facility.

1.  The front nine is routed through a flat forested plain, returning near the clubhouse after the 3rd, 5th and 8th holes.  The back nine heads out to the Firth of Forth over terrain with good golf-sized undulation, returning near the clubhouse after the 15th hole.

2.  Even the flat holes have subtle nuance.  The par 5 6th hole features a 4-5 foot high mound in the left center of the fairway, well placed to distinguish between solid and indifferent drives.  All holes, flat or not, feature the impeccable logic we see in Tom's courses, where the riskier line of attack always yields the best angle for the next shot.  As expected, the green complexes are just that - complex, where the experienced member will have an advantage knowing where the best miss will be, based upon the day's pin position.  The greens have lots of slope and undulation.  At the current green speeds, the greater problem is leaving putts short.  These greens will best serve the club once the greens are sufficiently mature to increase speeds to about 10-11 feet.  The club should be commended for not rushing the process.

3.  The course is quite long and difficult.  There are no breather holes, where par is easily achieved.  The par 3 holes are a bit less visually compelling than many modern designs, all routed across flatter terrain.  The 2nd and 13th play about a half club downhill, whereas the 9th and 17th play about flat.  They are all difficult, especially the 2nd and 17th. They are defended by modest topography which tends to shed balls away, and none of them have strongly sloping back to front greens to hold tee shots.  The front pin on #9, featured on the second day, was a glorious use of subtle contouring.  From 10 yards behind the hole, it was nearly impossible to read the proper break, though the contours looked benign.  Players will occasionally putt off the sides of the green there.

4.  The par 4s and 5s have great variety in all aspects.  Uphill and downhill, left and right, prescribed carry distances for best angle of approach, etc.  The fescue is generally cut short around the greens, often suggesting a variety of possible recovery choices, though putter is often the choice for the less than confident short game player.  On the back nine, the long holes (12, 14, 16) are used to traverse a gentle ridge a few hundred yards from the ocean.  On these holes, the green becomes visible (or more visible) once the ridge is crossed.

5.  A number of low-lying walls adorn the course.  Apparently, most of these walls existed and were retained.  Not only do they provide visual interest, they also come into play.  During my two days and 45 holes of play, I witnessed about 5-7 shots where the walls impacted play.  My favorite was on the 18th hole, where I pulled my approach shot to the green, the ball bouncing softly off the wall and coming to rest pin high, about a foot away from the wall.  After considering my options, I turned over a 7-iron and tried to swing left handed, moving it about 25-30 feet closer, then getting up and down for a rewarding bogey.

6.  If I remember correctly, few holes have bunkers guarding the front of the greens, so the runup shot will be inplay almost everywhere.  The bunkers are smaller than many Doak designs, but are recessed with short grass surrounds, and balls gather into them readily.  If I were to offer one suggestion, I would like to see balls less than five yards into the long fescue rough a bit more playable.  I'm not sure how you would do this exactly, perhaps mowing it to 2-3", perhaps attempting to thin it out somehow, but I felt the long fescue, on average, was too often encountered and/or too difficult to recover from.

7.  Many expensive modern projects fall into the category of what I would call a Doak 6, solid and moderately inspiring.  The Renaissance Club is clearly more interesting than that, though it took me a second trip around the course to figure that out, no longer under duress from competing in the rain.  The proposed new holes would improve the balance of flat to rolling to rumpled holes, but it is already an excellent golf course.  The course will offer a challenging alternative to the other great courses in the neighborhood, with a distinctlively different look and set of demands.  It's a tournament worthy design; I liked it a lot.

Mark Pearce

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Re: 3 new holes to be added at The Renaissance club
« Reply #13 on: July 28, 2009, 11:29:14 AM »
John,

Thanks for that.  It sounds like the RC, rather like its immediate neighbour, is a course that may not be visually spectacular but which is an excellent test of golf and a layout that you appreciate more the more you play it.  Does that sound right?
In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Ally Mcintosh

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Re: 3 new holes to be added at The Renaissance club
« Reply #14 on: July 28, 2009, 11:30:08 AM »
I thought the course was fantastic... And if the three new holes ever get built, I am sure they will absolutely add to the course, especially in the minds of those who need ocean views... (although I too really like the existing holes 1 to 3)...

Any negatives with the new land Tom?... Looks to me like you might have a rather nasty (but unavoidable) uphill walk from 12 green to 13 tees... If that's the only downside though, then it's a pretty small price to pay...

Peter Pallotta

Re: 3 new holes to be added at The Renaissance club
« Reply #15 on: July 28, 2009, 11:38:20 AM »
John - thanks much for that post; as always, very well wrtten and helpfully insightful. To me, one of the most appealing aspects of the course as you describe it are the Par 3s -- thank goodness someone remembers that you can design beautiful and interesting Par 3s on flat terrain; and that, in so doing, you needn't 'compensate' for it by having strongly sloped back to front greens. After all, it's an approach to designing Par 3s that has only worked for, what, more than a hundred years....

Glad you got a chance to play there; and keep writing, you have a gift for clarity and understatement.

Peter

John Kirk

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Re: 3 new holes to be added at The Renaissance club
« Reply #16 on: July 28, 2009, 11:40:29 AM »
John,

Thanks for that.  It sounds like the RC, rather like its immediate neighbour, is a course that may not be visually spectacular but which is an excellent test of golf and a layout that you appreciate more the more you play it.  Does that sound right?

Hi Mark,

It would be more accurate to say the first eight holes aren't spectacular, though #2 and #7 are quite handsome.  The back nine is very attractive throughout.

I believe it's a fair statement that most, if not all, great golf courses get better with repeat play.

Niall C

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Re: 3 new holes to be added at The Renaissance club
« Reply #17 on: July 28, 2009, 01:49:16 PM »
Tony:  Your favorite little tree is alive and well, and thriving.

Kyle:  All the land in your photo belongs to Muirfield.  The land they traded to The Renaissance Club is around the corner to the right, the better part of a mile to the east, at the point in Tony's last (dark) picture.  I believe The Honourable Company are keeping tabs on our progress with the permits, because they've got plenty of ground for more golf if it is permittable out there ... the contours are awesome, but I don't know how much of their land is the mossy stuff which we have to steer around.

Tom

I seem to recall that Ken Moody did a nine hole routing for HCEG about 10 years ago but don't know if they ever took it forward with the planners.

Niall

Jim Nugent

Re: 3 new holes to be added at The Renaissance club
« Reply #18 on: July 28, 2009, 05:49:10 PM »
John Kirk, thanks for telling us about the course.  I would love to learn/see more about it.  Can anyone post more photos? 

Tim Pitner

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Re: 3 new holes to be added at The Renaissance club
« Reply #19 on: July 28, 2009, 06:16:46 PM »
John Kirk, thanks for telling us about the course.  I would love to learn/see more about it.  Can anyone post more photos?  

Jim,

TRC has a pretty good website with photos--http://www.trcaa.com.  

Of Mr. Doak's newer courses, this one and the now defunct (still can't believe that) St. Andrew's Beach are the ones that intrigue me the most.  They just seem to blend in so well with their surrounds.  
« Last Edit: July 28, 2009, 06:19:26 PM by Tim Pitner »

Tom_Doak

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Re: 3 new holes to be added at The Renaissance club
« Reply #20 on: July 28, 2009, 07:16:21 PM »
Tim:

I actually heard a rumor while in the U.K. (of all places) that there may soon be a resolution to sell and reopen St. Andrews Beach.  But we'll just have to wait and see on that, too.

Ally:

The only "negative" with the new land is that it will throw off the balance of the course somewhat.  There will be two sub-400 yard par-4's and a par-3, replacing two sub-400-yard holes and a longer par-3 ... but you are moving those three holes to the back nine, and the long and difficult stretch of the current 10-11-12 to the front nine, which will make the front nine REALLY long (and put three of the short holes on the back).  Still, whatever we would have to do to get out on the point will be worth it.  And the climb from new #12 to #13 is not bad at all ... maybe 30 feet uphill.

John:

Thanks for your review.  No quibbles from me.  What surprised me the most was that I'd forgotten how big the greens are and how subtle and difficult to read they are.  What impressed me the most was how well some of the bunkers gathered shots which looked like they might run clear.  It is really the first time we've worked hard to try to get that to happen, and it worked!

Mark P:

I've got to disagree with somebody here, and it turns out to be you.  Do you always have your head down when you've played Murifield?  I didn't play there this trip, but I did hop the fence and show one of my clients around a few holes ... and the views of the Firth of Forth and westward toward Edinburgh are really outstanding on a sunny day ... better in my estimation than the views on most of the Open Championship courses, with the exception of Turnberry and Sandwich.  Muirfield is not as rumply as other links, but to say it's not beautiful is silly to me.




Mark Pearce

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Re: 3 new holes to be added at The Renaissance club
« Reply #21 on: July 29, 2009, 01:51:23 AM »
Tom,

I didn't mean to say Muirfield doesn't have some great views (though yes, my head can very often be down!) The course itself, though, doesn't have the drama of many other links.  It doesn't stop it being better than most other links, however.
In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Rich Goodale

Re: 3 new holes to be added at The Renaissance club
« Reply #22 on: August 02, 2009, 09:08:45 AM »
Tom

Thanks for your constructive and informative replies to the comments and queries of others.  Let me add a few others, in some cases building on John's fine observations.

1.  While I'm happy to hear of the progress on the three new holes--which will srely be spectacular--I am sad that holes 1-3 might be left fallow.  I think each is a gem.  The 1st is a superb opener, with a fascinating trompe d'oeil rough seeming to extend over most of the left side of the driving area at 200+ yards from the tee.  From the tee it looks as if the only play is to thread a needle to the right, or play short of the trouble, but after doing the latter the first time one discovers that the rough is only a finger, and a carry of 230 or so will suffice to get you onto the massively wide fairway.  That being said, the second time I played it, and took on the carry, the wind had shifted from the previous day, and even though I hit my best drive of the week, I only made the 230(?) carry by a few yards.  The fallaway green with extensive chipping/putting areas makes this a hard hole to get more than 5 but a surprisingly hard one to make 4.  The second is a very cool long 3 (230 from where we played, 260? from the back) which can played along the ground the whole way if you hit it straight.  In practice I thin/heeled a 3-iron that skirted the left rough, disappeared and then re-appeared and ended up pin high.  Cool, if unfair (to an opponent, at least....).  I hit a second one for fun, melted it (downwind) and found it 15 yards through the green in the rouhg.  Fast and firm?  Yes.  The third is another shortish (for today's game) 4 which requires more precision with the drive than the first, and has as easy enough green to make it perhaps a "birdie" hole.  All in all a gentle but subtle introduction to the course.  If I ran the place, I'd keep this loop as a warmup track, and/or "whisky" 3, or 6, or 9.  It is far too good to be abandoned.  What's wrong with having a 21 hole course?

2.  Overall I very much like the first 9 with it's kinder, gentler elevations and greater walkability, but that's my predilection these days.  It seems (and is) less "spectacular" than the back 9, but it is no less good as a golf course.  Particularly if and when the new 3 holes are added, I am sure that the back 9 will excite the photographers and the XtremeGolf aficionados more than the front, but I think that I will resepect both equally for what they are and discount those accounts which dis the front due to it's relative "simplicity."

3.  As John K. says, there are a lot of neat and subtle angles on the course, mostly around the green, but also in the landing areas for drives (e.g. the 6th--btw the cool left mound must be at least 10 feet high).  I like most of the roll-offs (don't ask me which and where, as I don't have a routing at hand), but am not sure about the seemingly many micro-countours in the middle of the greens.  I saw far too many (for me) 20-30 foot putts by all the people I played with which seemed to roll uphill in mid-stream.  On closer inspection, it was clear that there were mini-mounds intervening which threw the ball one way or another, but which were not obvious unless you made that closer inspection.  Possibly good for members, but not for occasional players, unless you want them to spend an inordinate time on the greens.  This "problem" will probably become more acute when the greens mature and can be made to play faster.

4.  Overall, the condition of the course is remarkably good and "linksy" for one its age, but should and most probably will get better as the agronomic factors mature and both the maintenance and the design are tweaked over time.  I think that many of the green-side falloffs (and some of the internal contours or the greens) can and will play more robustly when the turf is firmer and faster.  Now, one can leave putts and chips from above the hole short--when the possibility of going 20+ feet past becomes more common, the interest around the greens will be even greater than they are now.

5.  I very much like overall the minimalistic bunkering and the playabily of even the more severe greenside bunkers.  I am not sure, however, if I like the various fairway pots which are surrounded by very hairy grass on three sides, leaving no chance for anything but defensive recoveries if you are in (or even worse, just not in) them.  A shave and a haircut would not be inappropriate for many of them.  Also, in general, the fairway rough was a bit too rough on the "wispy--->rough" scale.  This is probably due to the weather we have had here in Scotland, however, and can be managed.  North Berwick rather than Muirfield should be the goal for maintenance practices, IMVHO.

6.  I won't attempt a "Doak Scale" on the course, but it is now my second favo(u)rite course in East Lothian, behind Muirfield, but ahead of North Berwick.  Having played Pacific Dunes at roughly the same stage of development, I would consider the two courses roughly equal in interest and playability.  Even though it is still immature (both in terms of the routing--i.e. the "3 new holes"--and the agronomy), it is very good today, and could be even better in the future, given the proper TLC.  Well done.

John K.

We seem to pass like ships in the night.  Sorry we couldn't arrange for get a game together at RC, and hope that the next meeting will not again be 8-10 years away.

Rich
« Last Edit: August 02, 2009, 09:14:09 AM by Rich Goodale »

John Kirk

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Re: 3 new holes to be added at The Renaissance club
« Reply #23 on: August 04, 2009, 12:55:08 AM »
Thanks Rich,

I would suggest a general principle could be built using Rich's commentary.  Rich is about 10 years older than I am, and it's clear he values the flatter stretch of holes a bit more than I do.  They are fine golf holes, but I believe I will prefer the balance that three additional hilly holes will add to the mix.

My 74 year old cousin lives in St. Andrews.  On the Sunday morning before the final round of the Open Championship, he and I drove over to the Castle course to have a look around.  He has played it twice, and finds it prohibitively, crazily hilly and difficult.  We spent an hour or so walking the property, and though I had mixed feelings about course aesthetics, thought the course looked playable and intriguing.

My dad was a member at Stanford.  He liked Pasatiempo, but still, as he got older, felt some of the greens were goofy, which they are, but I still like them, and probably will continue to do so until I get a little older.

Therefore, I'm ready to say, as a general rule, that the older player prefers a more benign challenge, with less elevation changes and more subtle strategic elements.



Rich, I also hope we can reconvene for golf.  As successful as I am playing the butterfly, I couldn't quite make it all the way around the room.  Favorite quote of the weekend:

"The last time I played alternate shot, it was in the President's Cup."

--  Greg Turner

Whoa!


Rich Goodale

Re: 3 new holes to be added at The Renaissance club
« Reply #24 on: August 04, 2009, 05:29:14 AM »
John

I plead guilty to appreciating subtlety more than bling as I get older, which is why I love Painswick more than Dallas National, but I do not think it holds water as a generalized theorem.  There are a lot of geezers out there who would dump Catherine Deneuve for a more pneumatic younger model.  To each his or her own....

I also appreciate the wholeness and balance of things, including golf courses, and fear that the Renaissaance Club will lose some of its equilibrium if and when it plunges down to those seaside holes.  It will certanly be more spectacular, but will it be better?  Or, for a thought experiment, what if Muirfield were developing that land rather than RC?  Would Muirfield be a better course if it replaced some of its subtler holes with more spectacular and modern ones out by the Forth (assuming it could be done)?

Cheers

Rich

PS--I've always liked the Pasa greens more than Stanford's, even when I was a young lad of 55.....