Glen Abbey question

[Matthew Rose]

Have been watching bits and pieces of the Atlantis... I mean Canadian Open. I'm somewhat familiar with Glen Abbey from watching previous Canuck opens there - have they changed the routing of the course? It appears that they are playing the course in a different order, particularly the front nine. Anybody know, and if so, why they are doing this?

[Ian Andrew]

The front nine is 4 through 9, 3, 1 and 2.

It shortened walks and placed the players closer to the practice facilities.

...and yes it's still raining and we expect more!

[Matthew Rose]

Thanks.

[Wayne_Kozun]

And hopefully this is one of the last Canadian Opens at Glen Abbey - next year it will be at St Georges.

Ian - will next year be the first time that the Canadian Open has been played on a Stanley Thompson course since it was last at St Georges in 68?

[Jeff_Mingay]

Wayne,

I think you're right. 1968 at St. George's was the last time the Canadian Open was played over a course designed by Thompson.

[Dan Herrmann]

Glen Abbey was the first "good" course (other than municipal courses) I ever played, and I remember it fondly.  I also remember that the Canadian Open was always held the week after the US Open, and weather was usually a lot better.

[Ian Andrew]

I'm one hour from Glen Abbey and we just got over an inch of rain in 15 minutes.

[Mark Saltzman]

"Clublink Files to redevelop Glen Abbey into residential community"


http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/toronto/clublink-files-to-redevelop-glen-abbey-golf-club-into-residential-community/article27012533/

[Ian Andrew]

Rai bought Clublink for the land, not the golf.
He bough Glen Abbey for the same reason.

It will be developed, so will many of there other courses.


Unfortunately, you will also see 5 more Opens there beforehand.
But this one will get won in court.


I won't miss the Canadian Open being played there

[Wayne_Kozun]

The issue then becomes one of where to hold the Canadian Open in Toronto?

[Bruce Katona]

What will be interesting is to see what occurs when the local or provincial planning commission reviews the underlying zoning of the land tract the golf course sits on when reviewing the development applicatio.  If the zoning/permitted uses of the land are only for open space/recreation, the burdon of proof will be on Clublink to prove their proposal to redevelop the golf courseis an asset to the community. This is the "guilty until proven innocent" test.
 
If mixed use development is permitted, development can proceed; as its consistent with permitted land use or the planning/comprehensive plan. This is the "innocent until proven guilty" test. But the neighboring homeowners will argue they have been damaged by losing an open space and visual resource The golf course) they paid extra to be adjacent to, when they purchased their homes.
 
But what do I know, I only do this for a living.

[Peter Pallotta]

The issue then becomes one of where to hold the Canadian Open in Toronto?

If I were King for a Day -- I'd wipe the slate clean. Forget about begging and pandering for a good slot on the PGA schedule, ditch the RBC sponsorship and naming rights, go back to the RCGA instead of this faux-populist "Golf Canada", happily accept the small/niche/potentially cool market for golf, honour the fact that it is the 2nd oldest national championship in the world, ignore the disinterested tour pros and stop praying for their presence, don't go back to the St George well for a long time, hold the Canadian Open at Weston or Scarboro or Islington -- just the way they are today, no renovations, and without caring that they don't have the "facilities" -- and schedule it for late September/early October, and then have Lorne Rubenstein host/act as Master of Ceremonies and have a special day honoring the great Canadian amateurs of the past, and pair the whole thing with a newly created RCGA "Public Links Championship" that follows the Canadian Open. It will be a small event, but at least it will be a noble one - and one that bucks the global trend towards corporate domination and so-called sophisticated business models/financial practices.
Peter

[Frank M]

Bruce, being that you do this for a living, I'm sure you also know applications for zoning amendments have and will continue to happen all the time.

There is significant precedent when it comes to situations like this in Ontario and Canada. Some with even more significance containing historical interest not only to the Town/City, but region, province and country as a whole — many have been approved for development.

[David_Tepper]

Lorne Rubenstein on Glen Abbey:

http://scoregolf.com/blog/lorne-rubenstein/an-ode-to-the-abbey/

[SB]

Good history.  Looks like the golf course site was always separate from the surrounding development.  That will limit claims by nearby homeowners that the golf course owes them something (i.e. "the golf course owner sold me this house and told me the golf course would be here forever").

[Bruce Katona]

Frank:  I'm not in favor of or against the re-evelopment of the asset into another use.  If it's determined that the interest of the public good is benefited (for whatever reason: economic, compatible land use, affordable housing, public recreation, etc.) by re-development so be it.  Underutilization and highest and best use are arguements  made successfully when a commercial or industrial use is not being utilized at 100% capacity or is no longer in keeping with its surroundings.
 
Zoning and land use patterns change and adapt to what the constituants as a whole want; that's why the formal land use application and judicial appeal process both exist.
 
The neighbors will liekly put up a tussle; at least for a while.  It'll beinteresting to see how this pencils out.

[Pat Burke]

Glen Abby is an interesting thing to me.  I'm not a fan of many Nicklaus courses, but always looked forward to the Canadian Opens I played there.  Never played great there, but it was a good tournament site, which is not the same as a good golf course.  I think similarly of Torrey Pines.
There was a good atmosphere, nice practice facilities, and usually pretty good conditions (mid late 90's).
The course was actually pretty straight forward, but the valley holes were actually pretty cool.  I didn't really like the 13th, which was a pretty basic par 5 in a cool setting, but the other holes in the valley were pretty cool with the creek meandering through.


At most Nicklaus courses, I felt at a disadvantage.  But never did at Glen Abby.  While it favored length (what doesn't? ), I felt my ability to control the ball worked there.  I'm a little surprised I didn't play better there

[Frank M]

Just back from playing there today in the unusually warm weather we are receiving in the area and the course is in great shape.

I feel Glen Abbey gets a bad rep because it is so expensive, which is unfortunate. It really is a strong golf course. It offers plenty of interest into very well guarded greens with nice contours and smaller sizes. I think there are so many fun holes out there.

[Wayne_Kozun]

I feel Glen Abbey gets a bad rep because it is so expensive, which is unfortunate. It really is a strong golf course IMO. It offers plenty of interest into very well guarded greens with nice contours and smaller sizes. I think there are so many fun holes out there.

But doesn't it have to expensive to be economically viable when the alternative is to turn it into very expensive housing?


I heard a theory a few years ago that since the course was no longer to host the Canadian Open (which has since changed) then they would no longer be able to charge $200+ green fees.  That would reduce the value of the site as a golf course and make it much more likely that the course would be redeveloped into housing.  This always more of a risk when a course is owned by a corporate entity rather than being member owned. 


If a course is owned by a publicly listed company you could argue that the officers and board of the company are shirking their fiduciary duties if they do not maximize the value of such an asset.  And Clublink is publicly listed on the TSX as TWC enterprises.

[Frank M]

I've never imagined a fate other than development for Glen Abbey in my lifetime. A golf course couldn't charge enough to make it a more appealing option than development if the land permits, and IMO, the land most definitely will permit. It will go through years and years of never-ending approvals, litigation, studies, etc. but it will be houses. I'm confident enough to say I guarantee it.     

[Ian Andrew]

Frank,

Well I throw this in for fun - not right away - but within the next ten years Copper Creek will be a nine hole course with housing up top.

Your safe on Eagle's Nest because of what's underneath ....

I still think Angus Glen North will go eventually too.
Shaughnessy is done in my lifetime ...

A lot of Canadian Open courses of recent will see houses while I'm alive.

[Peter Pallotta]

Frank,
Well I throw this in for fun - not right away - but within the next ten years Copper Creek will be a nine hole course with housing up top.

If so, I hope they keep the 9 with that great short Par 3!

[Ian Andrew]

4 thru 9, 10, 11 and 16 - pretty strong nine!
Small footnote: I built the 4 thru 7 while Doug was travelling.

[Frank M]

Though it's a shame about Shaughnessy and Glen Abbey, and I've always enjoyed Cooper Creek, I can't say I will be sad to see Angus Glen North go.

[Wayne_Kozun]

Shaughnessy has always been known about since the land was leased from the Musqueam band that ends in 2032.  Copper Creek is ok but I don't think it is anything special.

I am surprised that no one has mentioned York Downs in this thread.  In some ways that is more surprising as it is a member owned golf club and it is much rarer for those to be sold off than corporate owned courses.

Ian, or anyone else, do you know what the last course to close or move out of the amalgamated city of Toronto.  Cedar Brae moved in 1954 - I wonder if that is the most recent one.  There are tax impediments to doing this but in some instances I would think that they can be overcome.  And if real estate values continue to hold up and private golf clubs struggle then we may see this happen again.