Most Overrated Modern Courses (post 1990) ?

[Matt_Ward]

Jim:

Happy to discuss LCR with you further ... if there is a Engh layout that is a bit overrated it's more Redlands Mesa than his design in New Castle, CO.

The issue is not whether a course is overrated -- but if it's the MOST -- I don't see Lakota being in that high listing -- no doubt it has some downside but there's way more good stuff than you frankly admitted to in your post.

Adam:

Try re-reading what I have already posted on some of the courses already mentioned. Some folks have asked me to hold back and allow others to weigh in before responding in great detail. So I guess I get it either way -- push too many courses into the opening and people back away -- or then wait for others and then get accused of not being forthcoming.

Adam, I love your tap dance retort -- that you don't have any to mention. Great reply.

[Adam Clayman]

I just dont keep lists

[Ronald Montesano]

What is odd to me at Whistling Straits' Straits course is the notion that the course takes six holes to reveal itself.  I have to believe that Dye, if given the chance, would find a way to redo the fifth hole.  This, in my estimation, is the one hole that does not fit.  The 18th is damned close to not fitting, but they have to find a way to get back up the hill to the clubhouse, so why not.

What is the correlation between over-rated and over-priced?  My bro-in-law from Connecticut and I were at Diamond Hawk, a recent Hurdzan & Co. design.  We played for the princely sum of $39 for golf and cart.  Bro-In-Law exclaimed, "that's half of what I'd pay at home."

[Kenny Baer]

What do you guys think about "The Club @ Black Rock"?  #27 in the GD Rankings is very lofty....ahead of places like SF Golf Club, The Golf Club, Riveria, Bethpage Black, and so on.....that is VERY VERY lofty status.  I have never played it but from what I have seen of Engh...(Mainly through pictures) I coudn't imagine it being superior to the above mentioned courses.

Also The Quarry @ La Quinta is very highly regarded according to GD; I have seen some negative comments about the course over the years from "The Treehouse" with very little positive feedback.

Just asking..... ??

[Matt_Ward]

Kenny B:

I played Black Rock before it garnered "best new private" from Digest when if memory serves places like Friar's Head were in the running. Can't recall the significant "other" course that was also eligible that year. Likely someone can post the name if they search.

Black Rock is a Jim Engh layout and I liked the course because it doesn't try to use the repeat formula you see in earlier Engh designs --the bowl-shaped greens -- the hemmed in fairways to keep balls from flying further off line.

It is clearly manufactured though -- holes like #11 may in fact turn off pure classic types here on GCA and elsewhere but I liked the hole because it clearly is something you don't see often.

The collection of par-5's at BR are well done -- each allows for plenty of risk taking and the downhill 16th (?) is a gem. You have to really think long and hard about going for the target in two blows there.

However ...

Black Rock is not the 27th best course in the USA in my mind. I've played a fair share of Engh designs and generally I like his work --- with a few exceptions. Black Rock is a fun course to play but a few other Engh layouts are right there -- if not beyond BR -- they would include Lakota Canyon Ranch, Pradera and even Engh's work at Harmony -- just north of Denver. I also think Four Mile Ranch is quite inventive given the limited construction and design $$ Engh had to work with there.

Kenny, I don't know what Engh courses you have played -- if any. I would recommend any number of them because generally Engh designs run to the other side of what is generally favored on this site -- e.g., places from Doak, Hanse, C&C, etc, etc. Engh has his own style and for some it will be either a love it or hate it outcome.

Black Rock is well worth playing for those who can get an invite to play there. Is it a top 100 course? Tough call on that one too. I'd say it has a chance for my listing but it's more of an outside shot selection -- not because Black Rock is not worth playing -- it's that other courses are much more worth playing -- see the likes of The Kingsley Club as one clear example that comes to mind and which Digest has badly handled in assessing it's overall standing. I can name others in comparable qualities to The Kingsley Club that thus far have been overlooked by the publication.

[Greg Clark]

Matt,

I'm pretty sure that Dallas National was the other course in the running along with Black Rock and Friar's Head

[Kenny Baer]

Matt,

Thanks for the reply.

I have only played The Creek @ Reynolds Plantation; I enjoyed it and took it for what it is.  I went with a completely open mind and I enjoyed it much more than the other 3 members of my foursome, 1 of which is a member.  I though it was a good golf course with tons of strategy that was to over the top for my particular taste; everything from the down hill tee shots (seemed like every hole) to the "muscle" bunkers, to the greens with 15ft undulations (literally)...also unwalkable.  I would never choose to play a course like that day in and day out; IMO that particular course lacks any subtlety.  That is not to say that he is not capable of building a golf course that I would love but it would have to be a complete and total departure from The Creek course, and I mean complete.  He is the only Archie that I have ever played that his style was so unique that I honestly can't picture him departing from that to a degree that would warrant one of his courses making my Personal Top 10.

I think anyone would agree that Engh does succeed at being different.

Obviously many love his golf courses.   

[Jim Franklin]

Matt,

I'm pretty sure that Dallas National was the other course in the running along with Black Rock and Friar's Head

Greg -

You are correct. Dallas National came in second the Black Rock that year with Friars Head third.

I am off to play Black Rock next week and look forward to seeing the layout as well as the other courses we are seeing.

Matt -

When are you going to share your overrated list? I would love to discuss Lakota with you more. It does have a few things I really liked, but the repetitive green sites were hard to handle. I can appreciate why he did it, but I don't have to like it.

Can the #6 course in a state that does not have a top 100 course be the most overrated? If so, Tavern Creek in Missouri gets the nod from me. If not, then Rich Harvest gets the title.

[Andy Troeger]

I thought the front nine at Lakota, save the first tee shot, was really well done. The consecutive par fives at the 4th and 5th were both excellent, the green at the 3rd is wild and fun, and the walk up to #8 is certainly different (I'm not sure I've ever been winded by walking up to a tee before--but its worth it). The back nine had a lot more housing going in and was more the "out and back" routing that wasn't quite as thrilling, but the 11th, 12th, 16th, and 18th are all quality holes IMO.

The bowl greens do get a bit repetitive, but if there was ever a site where they made sense its Lakota since the holes run through canyons and just about everything funnels toward the holes as long as you keep it on grass.

[JESII]

Huntsville, near Scranton, PA received pretty high acclaim and is pretty underwhelming. Great group of guys, and a generally good course, but way below my expectations when I first went. I've played a handful of times now and think of it as a good course but nowhere near #4 in PA.

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

I started reading this thread not sure that my own personal"favourite" nomination in this category would get a amntion.....but then my man DsHMIDT came up trumps...

Whistling Straits.....True links golf on steroids..everything way overdone.
I accept it as a feat of engineering, but as a golf course what a waste.
It could have been so much beeter with a touch of subtle imagination instead of resembling Mr Dye was on an acid trip.
Too many severe driving lines, too mnay forced carries...toughness for the sake of it.

[Paul OConnor]

Arcadia Bluffs, at #49, is, in my opinion, a very over-rated new course.  Other than being perched on Lake Michigan's shoreline, I didn't find too much really outstanding about the place.   it seems a collection of fairly average holes that were tedious in their repitition,  borderline ridiculous greens, and a course design that arguably should be pretty firm playing slow and soggy.  Not even close to #49 in the country, probably not in the top 100.

[Jim Franklin]

Arcadia Bluffs, at #49, is, in my opinion, a very over-rated new course.  Other than being perched on Lake Michigan's shoreline, I didn't find too much really outstanding about the place.   it seems a collection of fairly average holes that were tedious in their repitition,  borderline ridiculous greens, and a course design that arguably should be pretty firm playing slow and soggy.  Not even close to #49 in the country, probably not in the top 100.

Paul -

I guess you missed my thread where a group of my low handicap friends went and played Arcadia Bluffs, Crystal Downs, and Oakland Hills, and each one liked AB the best. I liked AB, but not better than CD.

[Paul OConnor]

Jim,
Actually, I didn't miss that thread.  I couldn't possibly imagine rating AB higher than Crystal Downs.    The fact that your low handicapped friends did is amazing to me.   My favorite part of AB was smashing drivers into Lake Michigan from 300 feet up on the 12th tee while we waited for the hacks in front of us to make their tenth quad of the round.  I could barely wait for the tedium of this course to end. 

Crystal Downs is on par with Chicago Golf as one of the greatest old style courses I've ever played.  I had so much fun playing there I was laughing out loud.  Sheer joy on a golf course!  Absolutely brilliant, every hole!  Crystal Downs, for me, is what playing and enjoying golf is all about. 

[Jim Franklin]

Jim,
Actually, I didn't miss that thread.  I couldn't possibly imagine rating AB higher than Crystal Downs.    The fact that your low handicapped friends did is amazing to me.   My favorite part of AB was smashing drivers into Lake Michigan from 300 feet up on the 12th tee while we waited for the hacks in front of us to make their tenth quad of the round.  I could barely wait for the tedium of this course to end. 

Crystal Downs is on par with Chicago Golf as one of the greatest old style courses I've ever played.  I had so much fun playing there I was laughing out loud.  Sheer joy on a golf course!  Absolutely brilliant, every hole!  Crystal Downs, for me, is what playing and enjoying golf is all about. 

Paul -

I am with you RE: Crystal and Chicago. I loved both from beginning to end.

Funny stuff about #12 though. And I would not take my friends opinions seriously. They play golf for score/eye candy, not cerebral enjoyment.

[Steve Salmen]

My initial response to this question was Cascata.  When someone posted Rich Harvest, I had an, "Oh, yeah" moment. 

Kenny,

To answer your question about reasons why, Rich Harvest seems to be hard for the sake of being hard.  It seems every hole beats you up.  The dogleg on the front may possibly be more acute than 90 degrees with trees literally everywhere.  The matted dogleg on the back was something like 431 yds and it seemed my optimum club was a 3 iron, roughly my 210 club.  18 is something like 460 and luckily I was able to hit my best two two irons to barely make the green.  Just not too much fun.  In fact, after playing it the first time, I turned down a free Saturday invite.  Rather check out a never played muni with some reputation.


Steve

[Matt_Ward]

Guys:

Thanks for listing Dallas National as one of the top three places that was reviewed by Digest along with FH and BR for bext new private.

Jim F:

I'll place my full listing shortly -- I have some courses that I forgot to include and others that were not as overrated as I first thought. Your patience is appreciated.

In regards to Lakota Canyon Ranch -- I don't disagree with your point that at times Engh overdoes the same elements. But the broader question remains -- is the course overrated on a major scale. I say no.

Andy makes a good point about the turing angle on the 1st hole but the back-to-back par-5's with the 4th and 5th -- in fact, the 4th I believe is one of Engh's ultra best par-5 holes for the setting and what it requires.

Jim, you have to realize how Engh was able to successfully get the course routed through a demanding site -- it's one of his many talents in handling such chores and he does it well there and at other locations.

I also think there are a number of well done other holes at Lakota -- the downhill par-5 11th is gambling golf at its best -- ditto the qualities of the dog-leg left par-4 12th which follows -- although the greensite there is a bit bowled. The par-4 16th is another of the fine holes at Lakota Canyon Ranch. Jim, you mention the repetitive nature of the bowled greens but you'll have to good bit more for me to see the course in the same manner as you seem to find it.

Jim, no doubt you are entitled to your opinion -- but there's plenty of fine shots you have to execute on a range of holes at the layout there. Be very interested in reading your detailed reply as to your thoughts about the course.

[Greg Clark]

Reflection Bay - Nicklaus course was overated and overpriced when I played it 5 years ago.  Not a bad course, but no way Top 100 public.  

[Kalen Braley]

I can see how the repetitive nature of Enghs work can turn some folks off, but the fact remains his courses are a ton of fun to play.  The greens, the kickins, the slopes everything work very well in providing the golfer lots of different ways to attack a hole or putt. Additionally Jim is going to give you some shot requirements that you likely have never seen anywhere else as well as make you think over many shots.

I've only played a handful of his courses, but will eagerly play any of his offerings when given the chance.

[Tim Leahy]

Pelican Hill, either course, hardly one memorable hole out of 36 and they have gone through two renovations since opening I think.

[Bill Satterfield]

Osprey Meadows, Tamarack Resort in Donnelly ID.........Closed til further notice.  Probably not as much a clunker as the ultimate in BAD timing.

As of July 25th, this course is actually open again.  They are being managed by an outfit from the Boise area.

[Tony Weiler]

Pelican Hill, either course, hardly one memorable hole out of 36 and they have gone through two renovations since opening I think.

I enjoyed Pelican Hill in 2000.  Have you played it since the renovations?

I am not going to call Sutton Bay overrated, but I don't think it's better than The Links of ND.  Both have similar features, but the Links has much more variety, IMHO.  I really enjoyed SB, but would put it behind The Links. 

[Patrick Schultheis]

Sahalee is overrated.

GD regularly ranks it in the top 100, and as the best course in Washington.  Here's a case where the fact that a course hosted a major championship clearly has affected its rankings.

I don't know a single person who believes that Sahalee is a better golf course than Tumble Creek, Chambers Bay and Aldarra.  Throw in the two new courses in Eastern Washington (Palouse Ridge and Wine Valley, which I have not yet played) it may be that Sahalee isn't even in the top 5 in the state.  But with the Senior Open at Sahalee next year, don't expect the published rankings to change much

[Matt_Ward]

Patrick:

I believe the tagline for this thread was courses opened since 1990 -- Sahalee opened in 1969. Got it.

Anthony W:

You had me in stitches if you remotely really believe Links of ND is a better overall layout than Sutton Bay. Links doesn't get started until you reached the par-5 7th hole -- the first six are mere pedestrian type holes.

If you think both courses have "similar features" then you'll need to flush that statement out a good bit more. I would not elevate Sutton Bay to the level of a place like The Kingsley Club but the Links of ND is nothing more than a layout that has milked the isolation card for all it's worth. It's a fun and decent layout for the remaining 11 holes but Sutton Bay presents a far more complex challenge with a range of shot options that Links is no where near able to match. Sutton Bay easily matches the setting of what you find at Links.

Don't get me wrong regarding Links of ND -- a fine layout and should people happen to be near Ray, ND they might care to play it but when hooked up against Sutton Bay there's really no contest between the two IMHO.

[Patrick Schultheis]

Matt - my bad.  I focused on "Modern Courses" and not the 1990 reference.

I stand by my comments, though.