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Jay Flemma

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Country Club of Detroit?
« on: July 24, 2009, 05:51:38 PM »
I am hoping to get out to Michigan this year in the fall and catch a game at the Big house and play some golf with you Michigan folks.

a college friend is a member at Country Club of Detroit.  i read on their site that it's a Colt, but Jones may have done either a redesign or a restoration.  Does anyone have more information?  Thanks.
Mackenzie, MacRayBanks, Maxwell, Doak, Dye, Strantz. @JayGolfUSA, GNN Radio Host of Jay's Plays www.cybergolf.com/writerscorner

Rich Goodale

Re: Country Club of Detroit?
« Reply #1 on: July 24, 2009, 06:01:51 PM »
I think it is an Archie Simpson, of Murcar fame who moved from Aberdeen to become their pro at the same time as Colt visited (spring of 1911) but CCof D does not agree....... :o

Tom MacWood

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Re: Country Club of Detroit?
« Reply #2 on: July 24, 2009, 06:22:01 PM »
Rich
That was the an earlier course at a nearby site. Vardon said it was one of the three top courses he saw in N. America, along with Toronto and Mayfield. The present course dates back to the 20s and was designed by CH Alison. RTJ remodeled in the 50s or 60s, and then it was redesigned again by one of his sons, and then again by someone else.

Jay Flemma

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Re: Country Club of Detroit?
« Reply #3 on: July 24, 2009, 06:31:10 PM »
Tom M, what can you tell me about the redesigns?
Mackenzie, MacRayBanks, Maxwell, Doak, Dye, Strantz. @JayGolfUSA, GNN Radio Host of Jay's Plays www.cybergolf.com/writerscorner

Tom MacWood

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Re: Country Club of Detroit?
« Reply #4 on: July 24, 2009, 06:37:08 PM »
There is not much left of Alison's course.

Rich Goodale

Re: Country Club of Detroit?
« Reply #5 on: July 24, 2009, 06:46:57 PM »
Rich
That was the an earlier course at a nearby site. Vardon said it was one of the three top courses he saw in N. America, along with Toronto and Mayfield. The present course dates back to the 20s and was designed by CH Alison. RTJ remodeled in the 50s or 60s, and then it was redesigned again by one of his sons, and then again by someone else.

Tom

Simpson (and Colt?) built a completely new course in 1911 (Archie set the course record at the pre-1911 track).  Was that new course competely rebuilt by Alison in the 20's?  If so, did he tell Colt what he had done?


Tom MacWood

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Re: Country Club of Detroit?
« Reply #6 on: July 24, 2009, 07:32:37 PM »
Rich
That was the an earlier course at a nearby site. Vardon said it was one of the three top courses he saw in N. America, along with Toronto and Mayfield. The present course dates back to the 20s and was designed by CH Alison. RTJ remodeled in the 50s or 60s, and then it was redesigned again by one of his sons, and then again by someone else.

Tom

Simpson (and Colt?) built a completely new course in 1911 (Archie set the course record at the pre-1911 track).  Was that new course competely rebuilt by Alison in the 20's?  If so, did he tell Colt what he had done?



It is a strange story. I've copied the history from the club website. I'm not sure they have all the details right but you get the general idea. You're right the Colt course was a completely new course. In 1927 they bought an additional 150 odd acres adjacent to it and Alison built another completely new course, and they built a completely new clubhouse too, and its a beauty. Colt's course was nearer the lake, and Alison's is more inland. One gets the impression they had money to burn. I assume CHA told Colt, but maybe not.

http://www.ccofd.com/default.aspx?p=dynamicmodule&pageID=237773

Jay Flemma

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Re: Country Club of Detroit?
« Reply #7 on: July 24, 2009, 07:53:38 PM »
So did Jones revise the colt course or the alison course?
Mackenzie, MacRayBanks, Maxwell, Doak, Dye, Strantz. @JayGolfUSA, GNN Radio Host of Jay's Plays www.cybergolf.com/writerscorner

Paul_Turner

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Re: Country Club of Detroit?
« Reply #8 on: July 24, 2009, 08:01:08 PM »
Jay
He revised the Alison course , the Colt course is NLE (there was no Simpson course... according anyone but Rich anyway  ;))
« Last Edit: July 24, 2009, 08:03:29 PM by Paul_Turner »
can't get to heaven with a three chord song

Jay Flemma

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Re: Country Club of Detroit?
« Reply #9 on: July 24, 2009, 08:16:22 PM »
now what happened to the colt course?  why is it NLE?
Mackenzie, MacRayBanks, Maxwell, Doak, Dye, Strantz. @JayGolfUSA, GNN Radio Host of Jay's Plays www.cybergolf.com/writerscorner

Steve_ Shaffer

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"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Sean_A

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Re: Country Club of Detroit?
« Reply #11 on: July 25, 2009, 06:18:53 AM »
now what happened to the colt course?  why is it NLE?

Jay

The Colt course was essentially abandoned due to intra-club issues.  

Paul

Are we certain that Colt had nothing to do with the Alison course?  

I also recall looking at the Colt Association site sometime ago and they list Detroit CC in Michigan as a Colt course.  I don't know if its confusion with CCofD or with a course in Minnesota.  

In any case Jay, CCofD is not really worth a journey from out of state, but if you are in the Detroit area anyway it shouldn't disappoint.  I think the routing is fully intact and some of the greens are the same.  I also think some bunkering has been altered to reflect what Alison and Colt (?) created.  The man to ask is Chuck Brown.  I haven't seen the course in yonks, but I believe he gets around to the Detroit area clubs somewhat often. 

Ciao    
« Last Edit: July 25, 2009, 06:22:47 AM by Sean Arble »
New plays planned for 2025: Ludlow, Machrihanish Dunes, Dunaverty and Carradale

Jeff_Mingay

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Re: Country Club of Detroit?
« Reply #12 on: July 25, 2009, 06:49:14 AM »
Jay,

CCD is a very nice place to visit. The course is located in one of suburban Detroit's most beautiful neighbourhoods. As Tom mentions, the clubhouse is one of the nicest you'll see, anywhere (aside from the 1950s era bowling alleys inside!). However, the course is way down on my list of "must plays" in the Greater Detroit area.

I believe Keith Foster did some work there recently. I haven't seen the course since then.
jeffmingay.com

Tom MacWood

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Re: Country Club of Detroit?
« Reply #13 on: July 25, 2009, 05:52:57 PM »
now what happened to the colt course?  why is it NLE?

Jay

The Colt course was essentially abandoned due to intra-club issues. 

Paul

Are we certain that Colt had nothing to do with the Alison course? 

I also recall looking at the Colt Association site sometime ago and they list Detroit CC in Michigan as a Colt course.  I don't know if its confusion with CCofD or with a course in Minnesota. 

In any case Jay, CCofD is not really worth a journey from out of state, but if you are in the Detroit area anyway it shouldn't disappoint.  I think the routing is fully intact and some of the greens are the same.  I also think some bunkering has been altered to reflect what Alison and Colt (?) created.  The man to ask is Chuck Brown.  I haven't seen the course in yonks, but I believe he gets around to the Detroit area clubs somewhat often.

Ciao   

The Colt Association has no idea what is a Colt course and what is an Alison course. That said Colt did design CC of Detroit (NLE) in 1911, so if that is what their site says that would be accurate. Alison designed the new CC of Detroit in 1927. Colt's last trip to America was 1914.

The current bunkers are more RTJ than Alison. Alison had a very distinctive style.

Jim Thompson

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Re: Country Club of Detroit?
« Reply #14 on: July 25, 2009, 06:01:22 PM »
Call fellow MEATCHICKEN fan Dave Wigler and play Plum Hollow instead ;D

2 cents

JT
Jim Thompson

Jeff_Mingay

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Re: Country Club of Detroit?
« Reply #15 on: July 25, 2009, 06:13:23 PM »
Jim,

Good point.

If I had 10 rounds at either CCD or Plum Hollow, I'd probably play Plum 9 times. No joke...

But, of course, you must take 8 Mile Road to get to Plum  ;D
jeffmingay.com

Matt_Ward

Re: Country Club of Detroit?
« Reply #16 on: July 25, 2009, 06:30:08 PM »
Jay:

Save the day from playing there. Good layout indeed but nothing really special.

I was really psyched to play the course a number of years ago because AP won his lone US Amateur there and called it his greatest win ever in golf given the magnitude and doors that it opened when he won.

Beyond me how the course was ever rated among the top 100 by Digest at one time.

Chuck Brown

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Re: Country Club of Detroit?
« Reply #17 on: July 25, 2009, 07:18:17 PM »
Jay, I play CCD once or twice a year.  I think it is a very fine course, one of the best in the area.  My experience there dates back to about 1984, when I was a young law school grad and our two senior partners were members there.  Before the 1996 renovations, they both told me that they were engaging architects to look at the course for possible changes.  I had an eyewitness description of the tour taken of the course by Geoffrey Cornish, who said to them, "Do you realize that you have a great Redan?  It isn't being maintined properly."  Cornish took them all off guard, because (a) few of them knew what a Redan was, (b) they had prided themselves on taking very good care of what is a very flat and non-demanding bit of real estate that is easy to take care of.  From the time of the Cornish visit, their concern became "restoration" and not "renovation."

There is one important point that I must disclaim knowledge of; and that is what exactly were Trent Jones' changes in the 1960's.  Without the ability to prove it, I am compelled to say this; just ten or fifteen years earlier, Jones had done his work across town at Oakland Hills.  And what Jones did at OHCC had everything to do with fairway bunkers and tees, and almost nothing to do with green complexes and virtually nothing with the greens themselves.  And that is the way it was, I think, at CCD.  But that was before my time.  Personally, I think there is a lot of Colt there.  Honestly, I gotta believe that Jones spent more time building the Par 3 course than he did meddling with the big course.

The land is very flat parkland.  It is in an exquisite neighborhood, bordering Provencal Rd, ancestral home of several Fords, etc.  It's a great clubhouse, too, that reminds me a bit of Winged Foot.  The whole atmosphere is very, very 'Eastern' and very USGA.  And, USGA history-wise, it was the scene of Arnold Palmer's "breakthrough" in the U.S. Amateur.  I think that in the picutres of Ben Hogan being handed the U.S. Open Championship Cup at Merion, the presenter is Jim Standish, a CCD member. 

There are no water hazards, and almost no OB that comes into play.  My old mentor, now deceased, used to tell me about never losing a golf ball all summer, and I believe him.  I'm not sure I've ever lost a ball there.  It is a small membership, with very low numbers for rounds of golf played.  A WASP Franklin Hills.

Tom Doak thinks it is a credible and attractive test of golf; he's very keen on several of the holes.  I'm not near my copy of The Confidential Guide right now and I can't remember what he gave CCD on the Doak Scale.  I vaguely remember his comments as being correct and consistent with my own thinking.

It is a treat to play the course, and I would never turn down the opportunity.  I think is is absolutlely worthwhile.  I am very familiar with Detroit's other Colt-Allison Championship course, Plum Hollow, which is bulit across town on a very different kind of real estate.  Plum Hollow is a gamey course with a fun membership.  Given 10 rounds to play at them, I'd play 6 or 7 at CCD and the rest at Plum Hollow.

Jay Flemma

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Re: Country Club of Detroit?
« Reply #18 on: July 25, 2009, 09:14:29 PM »
thanks chuck.  we should start planning the trip:):)  I wanna get to UM too.
Mackenzie, MacRayBanks, Maxwell, Doak, Dye, Strantz. @JayGolfUSA, GNN Radio Host of Jay's Plays www.cybergolf.com/writerscorner

Tom MacWood

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Re: Country Club of Detroit?
« Reply #19 on: July 25, 2009, 10:08:20 PM »
Chuck
There is no Colt left, he designed a different golf course that is NLE. The present course is an Alison.

Are you sure Oakland Hills greens are original? I don't know the answer, but Ran Morrissett told me he had learned they were redesigned. I do know RTJ re-bunkered all the greens too.

RTJ redesigned CC of Detroit around the same time he redesigned Oakland Hills - circa 1950. He completely changed the bunkering scheme. I know at least two greens have been relocated - #3 and #18, and few greens have dramatically different shapes  - #10 and #17 for example.

#13 is the Redan. RTJ redesigned the relief course in 1968.

Chuck Brown

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Re: Country Club of Detroit?
« Reply #20 on: July 26, 2009, 12:07:24 AM »
Chuck
There is no Colt left, he designed a different golf course that is NLE. The present course is an Alison.

Are you sure Oakland Hills greens are original? I don't know the answer, but Ran Morrissett told me he had learned they were redesigned. I do know RTJ re-bunkered all the greens too.

RTJ redesigned CC of Detroit around the same time he redesigned Oakland Hills - circa 1950. He completely changed the bunkering scheme. I know at least two greens have been relocated - #3 and #18, and few greens have dramatically different shapes  - #10 and #17 for example.

#13 is the Redan. RTJ redesigned the relief course in 1968.

Tom, I have the distinct impression that you are better informed as to CCD than I.  Your comments on each of those greens rings true with me.

As to OHCC and its greens, I will state with as much certainty as I can, that with the obvious exception of #7, and the less-than noteworthy exception of #16, the OHCC greens are virtually original contouring (having been regrassed of course).  My source on that is former longtime OHCC super Ted Woehrle, who talked at length with the super who was there when RTJ came in.

Jay Flemma

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Re: Country Club of Detroit?
« Reply #21 on: July 31, 2009, 08:51:54 PM »
I met someone today who said the first course was NOT a Colt design, but was an ancient architect from a different plot of land completely.  Sean and Chuck, what more do you know about that?

I also heard someone who is not a member say it was so much fin to play, he liked it more than everything except OH.

How does, for example, Franklin Hills compare?
Mackenzie, MacRayBanks, Maxwell, Doak, Dye, Strantz. @JayGolfUSA, GNN Radio Host of Jay's Plays www.cybergolf.com/writerscorner

Sean_A

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Re: Country Club of Detroit?
« Reply #22 on: August 01, 2009, 03:21:39 AM »
Jay

I believe the 2nd course was the Colt design.

So far as the course goes, I am probably not the one to ask as CC of Detroit doesn't do much for me.  There are plenty of other coursesaround Detroit I prefer.  That said, it shouldn't disappoint if you are looking to hook up with a mate for a game especially if he is a member of the club.  I would nearly always go with the member invite rather than search something else out.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2025: Ludlow, Machrihanish Dunes, Dunaverty and Carradale

Jeff_Mingay

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Re: Country Club of Detroit?
« Reply #23 on: August 01, 2009, 07:56:49 AM »
Jay,

Franklin Hills is laid out over beautiful, rolling terrain. To give you some perspective, FHCC is just down the road from Oakland Hills CC.

CCD, on the other hand, is basically flat.
jeffmingay.com

Tom MacWood

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Re: Country Club of Detroit?
« Reply #24 on: August 01, 2009, 09:07:02 AM »
I prefer Franklin Hills for the same reasons - much more interesting terrain. The original Ross design is also largely intact unlike CC of Detroit.