[Link Walsh]

Tom,

Thanks for the reply.  To be able to look at a 2 dimensional topo map and imagine green sites and golf holes is a foreign concept to me. 

I guess 14 at Pac Dunes would be a good example of what you're talking about where the green site wouldn't work for a longer hole, right?  The first time I played that hole years ago, it was summer (downwind), so I thought it was a piece of cake.  Then I went back in April a few years ago and, into the wind, it was downright scary.  I think bogey probably won the hole outright in our group both times we played it!  I left thinking about what an awesome hole that was.     

[David Druzisky]

Gents, Other than being on the site the first day of actual construction, by far the best and most exciting aspect of course design is when you roll out a new topo plan. Now they are not always good or what you had hoped for, but when you do get one, quickly check some grades and then everything switches in your mind to 3D mode and you then realize you've got something special to work with, it's a fantastic moment and you are reminded again why you do what you do.  On my part the first thing that I think of is what type of golfing experience can I evoke with this property.  Beyond that it is a layering of all the factors, desires, needs, constraints etc that others have brought up here.  a real 3D Puzzle with moving parts.

Carl,

Your comment on Design Education and right brain vs. left brain is great.  It applies to our craft more than folks realize - or maybe I should say it too often doesn't.  Some people have that kind of ability or strength naturally but most would benefit from that training.  The ability to jump between the two - if that is possible - is what is needed to be ultimately successful.

Paul C. - I agree other than if it pertains to a specific course I can not imagine dissecting the process of routing.  Endless, and without a specific challenge there is no basis.

[Garland Bayley]

Ben,

Just so you are aware, Forrest Richardson wrote a book that pertains here. Routing the Golf Course can be found on amazon.com

[paul cowley]

guys ....routing is an endeavor that turns into tongue tied generalities and exceptions unless you are talking about specific courses....it doesn't work.
It would take a book to do so....like Forrest Richardsons.

sorry.

David and Ben.....I changed my earlier post to reflect more accurately my thoughts.
It was getting late and I tend to conserve words in the later hours.

I think I once started a thread with just a " . " that went on a couple pages...but that was extreeme.

[Tom_Doak]

Link:

Actually there was no green site for the 14th at Pacific Dunes at all ... just the peak of a dune and a big drop to the left.  We had to manufacture that one completely (although the stuff 30-40 yards short of the green is natural).  As I said, when in terrain that steep, it's much easier to invent a 140-yard par-3 than a 450-yard par-4, so you don't use up your 150-yard par-3's early if you can help it.

[Ben Sims]

This thread is starting to remind me of something we covered a few weeks ago, Situaltional Awareness.  I'll call it the PAN check. 

P: Platform.  How are you challenging to golfer currently in your routing?  What is the immediate impact of topography, i.e within 20-50 yards of where you're standing?
A: Area.  What is in the vicinity of the golfer that he is concerned with in the next 1-3 shots?  Is the tee shot effective?  Does the fairway flow into the green area?
N: Next.  Okay, how does this hole fit into the bigger picture of the holes around it?  Does it compliment the surrounds?  Does it flow to the next hole?

I guess that could also be called micro-routing and macro-routing. 


GarB,

Yeah.  In process of throwing it in the collection.  I'm only halfway through Hamlyn's World Atlas of Golf and Tom's Confidential Guide.  Halliday got mad when I tried to steal it from his house last night.  It was so nice of him to include a CommonGround yardage book signed by Tom, Jim, and Placek

Tom,

Was there is ever a consideration to use the current green complex at PD #14 as an ending point for a longer hole?  I guess an example would be #7 at OM.

[Tom_Doak]

Ben:

No, I never considered the green site for #14 at Pacific Dunes at all until we were given the land where #13 was, and needed to find a way back into our routing from there.  I knew I had a cool green site to get to on #15, and was just looking for an intermediate point which made both holes work.  By putting the green for 14 up in the dunes we got another hole with an ocean view ... if the hole had been any longer, the green site would have had to be lower with no view.

And I never considered having a tee further back on 14 ... if we had done so we would have messed up the sixth and seventh at Old Macdonald.

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